Questions about Jews, Judaism and so on.

[civ2]

timtofly
1. Eh??? (Germany)
2. Judaism (unlike Christianity through the ages, not sure about 21 century) always ENCOURAGED people to learn.
One of the main commentators, Rashi, said that his commentaries are "for a FIVE-year old child"!!!
Not to mention, that ANYONE could become a Rabbi, given enough brains and will.
There were MANY Rabbis in Talmudic times who were simple craftsmen in the "normal life".
3. The persistency of Christianity to pursue Jews (and failing to "finish the question") is self-explaining.
4. Judaism DOES NOT say that you have to be Jewish to experience G-d or be considered holy.
On the contrary, and my links on the other page say it clearly, there are "seven Noahide Laws" (not too much "Jewish", actually) that, if fully followed, consider a non-Jew to be RIGHTEOUS!
It's CHRISTIANITY that thinks "you either believe in me, or you're nothing".
5. To UNDERSTAND what TORAH says, you definitely need the "passwords" - that being the ORAL Tradition and commentaries.
The easiest example of it would be:
A PHYSICS (or something of similar complicity) student missed a lecture - now he got the notes from his friend.
Without ORAL explanation of what's written, he won't understand half of it.
Now, if it's not a student, but his mother who never ever studied physics???
Or a little brother???
That's EXACTLY how Torah works - Moses (and his generation) were at the "lecture"; whereas WE are nothing but "a neighbor of a friend of the little brother" - meaning, totally strange to the lecture itself.
Of course, we need EXPLANATIONS!!!
(And what about all those "experts on Bible" who have ZERO previous knowledge???)

 

[El_Machinae]

When God promised Abraham that his descendents would number the stars or the grains of sand, do you think this is literal or metaphorical? If it's literal, is it because you think it's our destiny to be an inter-stellar species? Running the numbers, I'm not sure that we can fit 300 sextillion people in just one galaxy (and that's allowing 10 quadrillion people per star), we'd still need to populate something like 30 million galaxies to get to those types of numbers. Does this imply that Faster Than Light travel is technically possible according to the Torah? I don't know if we can colonise 30 million galaxies if we are travelling sub-light speeds.

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

 

[civ2]

EM
This star/sand reference has double meaning (neither literal, though):
1. Simply VERY huge number.
There is an additional mentioning of "being impossible to count".
Well, since when Moshiach comes, there suddenly will be LOTS of "lost" Jews (who now don't know about their Jewishness) - it could easily end up having a billion or two of them too, nobody knows.
2. Has allegorical meaning too.
Sand is a "mass" of similar small dusts (crumb??? how do you call a sand-unit thingy???), whereas stars are totally separate and very bright.
Meaning, Jews will be sometimes like "sand" - very united, yet "not so outstanding", and sometimes like "stars" - bright and famous, "individual".
We know examples of both.
...
So, no, it doesn't speak about inter-stellar travel.

 

[timtofly]

timtofly
1. Eh??? (Germany)
2. Judaism (unlike Christianity through the ages, not sure about 21 century) always ENCOURAGED people to learn.
One of the main commentators, Rashi, said that his commentaries are "for a FIVE-year old child"!!!
Not to mention, that ANYONE could become a Rabbi, given enough brains and will.
There were MANY Rabbis in Talmudic times who were simple craftsmen in the "normal life".
3. The persistency of Christianity to pursue Jews (and failing to "finish the question") is self-explaining.
4. Judaism DOES NOT say that you have to be Jewish to experience G-d or be considered holy.
On the contrary, and my links on the other page say it clearly, there are "seven Noahide Laws" (not too much "Jewish", actually) that, if fully followed, consider a non-Jew to be RIGHTEOUS!
It's CHRISTIANITY that thinks "you either believe in me, or you're nothing".
5. To UNDERSTAND what TORAH says, you definitely need the "passwords" - that being the ORAL Tradition and commentaries.
The easiest example of it would be:
A PHYSICS (or something of similar complicity) student missed a lecture - now he got the notes from his friend.
Without ORAL explanation of what's written, he won't understand half of it.
Now, if it's not a student, but his mother who never ever studied physics???
Or a little brother???
That's EXACTLY how Torah works - Moses (and his generation) were at the "lecture"; whereas WE are nothing but "a neighbor of a friend of the little brother" - meaning, totally strange to the lecture itself.
Of course, we need EXPLANATIONS!!!
(And what about all those "experts on Bible" who have ZERO previous knowledge???)

It seems that the schism was in Poland (Lithuania). It was not far from the area in Germany where the Historical (Higher Criticism) of the Bible was going on. Just seems like an interesting juxtaposition to me, but probably has no meaning.

From my "Christian" perspective, it is the Holy Spirit that passes on the Oral Traditions. G-d has been given to all equally (through the soul), but one's "dispostion" and "environment" affect how that is "worked" out in the psyche. Leaving Oral Tradition in the hands of human administration seems to me to lead to either error or favoratism. I do believe that the Church has failed Christianity in that area, thus the Catholic thread and I do not see eye to eye.

It is not my place to give my opinion in this thread, thus I try to ask questions that do address my opinions while trying to gain new understanding in the thread that I ask the questions. I could even be called Gnostic, in the fact that the Word is still with us Today and not in the Eucharist, but the Word of G-d. The Old and the New Covenants.

 

[civ2]

timtofly
Eh, what is your question, if any???

 

[_random_]

timtofly
1. Eh??? (Germany)
2. Judaism (unlike Christianity through the ages, not sure about 21 century) always ENCOURAGED people to learn.
One of the main commentators, Rashi, said that his commentaries are "for a FIVE-year old child"!!!
Not to mention, that ANYONE could become a Rabbi, given enough brains and will.
There were MANY Rabbis in Talmudic times who were simple craftsmen in the "normal life".
3. The persistency of Christianity to pursue Jews (and failing to "finish the question") is self-explaining.
4. Judaism DOES NOT say that you have to be Jewish to experience G-d or be considered holy.
On the contrary, and my links on the other page say it clearly, there are "seven Noahide Laws" (not too much "Jewish", actually) that, if fully followed, consider a non-Jew to be RIGHTEOUS!
It's CHRISTIANITY that thinks "you either believe in me, or you're nothing".
5. To UNDERSTAND what TORAH says, you definitely need the "passwords" - that being the ORAL Tradition and commentaries.
The easiest example of it would be:
A PHYSICS (or something of similar complicity) student missed a lecture - now he got the notes from his friend.
Without ORAL explanation of what's written, he won't understand half of it.
Now, if it's not a student, but his mother who never ever studied physics???
Or a little brother???
That's EXACTLY how Torah works - Moses (and his generation) were at the "lecture"; whereas WE are nothing but "a neighbor of a friend of the little brother" - meaning, totally strange to the lecture itself.
Of course, we need EXPLANATIONS!!!
(And what about all those "experts on Bible" who have ZERO previous knowledge???)

Rather than addressing all your points here, I think I'll ask a question. Where exactly are you getting your information about Christianity?

 

[El_Machinae]

EM
This star/sand reference has double meaning (neither literal, though):
1. Simply VERY huge number.
There is an additional mentioning of "being impossible to count".
Well, since when Moshiach comes, there suddenly will be LOTS of "lost" Jews (who now don't know about their Jewishness) - it could easily end up having a billion or two of them too, nobody knows.
2. Has allegorical meaning too.
Sand is a "mass" of similar small dusts (crumb??? how do you call a sand-unit thingy???), whereas stars are totally separate and very bright.
Meaning, Jews will be sometimes like "sand" - very united, yet "not so outstanding", and sometimes like "stars" - bright and famous, "individual".
We know examples of both.
...
So, no, it doesn't speak about inter-stellar travel.

So, do you think it's a prophecy that there will be an 'uncountable' number of Jews? Do you think such a number has already been generated, and so this prophecy has already been fulfilled?

 

[civ2]

random
1. Discussion.
2. Internet.
3. Common knowledge.
4. Where do you???

EM
Er, how can you count something you don't know???
Do you know how many Jews are there in the world NOW???
I don't.
And it's a prophesy for future times, as I said - Moshiach.

Scripture:
Genesis 15
Rashi
A bit more

 

[_random_]

random
1. Discussion.
2. Internet.
3. Common knowledge.
4. Where do you???

A pretty decent variety of sources. I'm just kind of baffled by your claims that Christianity has discouraged people from learning or denied that non-Christians can be righteous.

 

[Jehoshua]

His information about christianity is not necessaily reputable however. For example the internet is not automatically reputable, common knowledge is a vague term which could easily apply to common misconceptions (or to a specific communitis preconceptions about the "outsider"). Discussion, well again thats hardly a basis for a conclusion since your forming an opinoin about a religion on individuals within it, when individuals are flawed. (and said discussion could always be within the jewish community, which of course would have those preconceptions I mentioned).

 

[civ2]

I know the same level on Christianity that you have on Judaism.

 

[Jehoshua]

Of course you are making a presumption of how much I know about judaism there, so that is hardly a logical statement.

 

[_random_]

I know the same level on Christianity that you have on Judaism.

Yeah, I'm not going to say I know a whole lot about Judaism, but I'm also not gonna go about making such audacious claims about it. You didn't have to mention Christianity at all in either of those claims; you simply bought it up for the sake of contrast. If you're going to do that, please make sure the contrast is a valid one.

 

[civ2]

Actually, you know what?
WHATEVER.

 

[_random_]

All right, so I have a question. In the Bible, we often see greater blessings given to the second son over the first(Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Ishmael, Ephraim over Manasseh, etc.) What's the significance of this in Jewish exegesis?

 

[warpus]

What's up with circumcision? Why did the practice start, is it something God commanded?

 

[civ2]

About circumcision:
TEXT; 9-14
COMMENTARY
TEXT; 3

To go deeper in the point of the other son being preferred over the firstborn:
1. It's not always so.
2. When it actually happens, it's based on the unfitness of the first, while the second is (more) fit for the task.
So it's the first who demotes himself, not the second that takes it.
3. Here are some examples of such cases:
a. Isaac over Ishmael
TEXT; 9-12
COMMENTARY
b. Jacob over Esau
TEXT; 27-34
COMMENTARY
TEXT
COMMENTARY; see 36
c. Ephraim over Menashe
TEXT; 19
COMMENTARY
d. Yosef over Reuben
TEXT; 32
COMMENTARY
TEXT; 3-4
COMMENTARY

 

[warpus]

Can you explain my question without using links? I don't have time to click any of them today, would prefer if you put it all in your own words. Thanks!

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Is it true that all Jews are rich, that is there are no poor Jews?

 

[civ2]

warpus
If reading SIX verses is too long for your Lazyness...
1. Circumcision was first commanded to Abraham, which he did at the age of 99 (!!!) and his son Ishmael at 13, whereas Isaac was born soon after that, and therefore got it on the 8th day, like all Jews afterwards.
2. The commandment was later re-enacted at Mount Sinai, to make it part of Torah specifically.
3. As the Jewish Sages taught:
"We do the circumcision on the 8th day (nowadays, after the Giving of the Torah at Sinai), not because it was commanded to Abraham (as a personal/family commandment), but because it is explicitly commanded in the Torah (and is thus a national covenant)."

NN
I just spent my last billion on buying you a new IP address (you know, Mossad and all...).
(As in - stop talking nonsense; also, how many Jews have YOU ever met and how many of them were actually rich???)
To again quote the Jewish Sages:
"Who is truly rich - the one who is happy with his lot."