Questions about Jews, Judaism and so on.

[Truronian]

What's the allure of believing in a god who (in the Old Testament at least, might be different in the Torah) is so vengeful and violent?

 

[civ2]

Truronian
I think it will be much easier and efficient if you bring specific quotes that make you think so.
Why? Because at most times it's all due to misinterpretation that causes this idea.
I can't promise you the all-encompassing answer (it's too complex of a question), but I'll definitely try to clarify specific points that probably got confused or misunderstood.
(And there's a chance I'll find a general answer too. Not that _I_ need it. )

 

[Truronian]

Truronian
I think it will be much easier and efficient if you bring specific quotes that make you think so.
Why? Because at most times it's all due to misinterpretation that causes this idea.
I can't promise you the all-encompassing answer (it's too complex of a question), but I'll definitely try to clarify specific points that probably got confused or misunderstood.
(And there's a chance I'll find a general answer too. Not that _I_ need it. )

Chronicled events like the biblical flood, the killing of the Egyptian first-born, the response to the erection of the Tower of Babel.

 

[civ2]

Truronian
I found something "general" - and it seems I'm doing this not for the first time already.
Thirteen Attributes of Mercy.
13 Attributes in depth.

All this shows that God doesn't "want" to punish - He's just "forced" to do so by OUR stubborness.

Speaking of famous biblical punishments - in all cases there was either a direct warning (by prophets or spiritual leaders) or the crime was well-known to the criminal.
In other words, they were simply doing "illegal" stuff, just the "law" was Divine.
So basically I could change your question into "why imprison a thug or why fine a speed limit breaker".

Why Flood?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

All this shows that God doesn't "want" to punish - He's just "forced" to do so by OUR stubborness.

So why didn't he just leave Job alone?

edit: please no links and "read this".

So basically I could change your question into "why imprison a thug or why fine a speed limit breaker".

In case of killing the first-borns, why imprison a thug's or fine a speed limit breaker's kid?

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
Hi, long time no see.
Job wasn't punished, he was tested.
A big difference (detention vs home work?).
And it's not even clear whether he passed the "exam" or not fully.
Dude, HOW do you imagine me answering such global questions without any links?
AND, by this I show:
a. It's not (just) my opinion, it has a basis.
b. I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT.
I also deleted a lot since I'd rather use Jewish sources.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

edit, deleted much of my post.

Forget I asked anything.

If this is what you think a good excuse for God's atrocities, then by all means, be my guest.

Table 1, check please!

 

[civ2]

Ziggy

I did say it wasn't a JEWISH source.
(I emphasize the emphasis. )
Wow! Took 10 seconds to find a link about Job.
Part 1.
Part 2.
Part 3.

In this instance, Satan communicates two vitally important messages. First, in Hashem’s conversations with Satan it emerges that Iyov is an unparalleled Tzaddik. As the Ramban (Iyov 1:9) notes, this stands in sharp contrast to Iyov’s three friends, who argue that Iyov’s suffering emerges from sins he must have committed either publicly or in private.
Moreover, Satan’s criticism of Iyov sheds light into a fundamental truth. If the world functioned in a manner where every Tzaddik (righteous) is rewarded immediately and visibly and that every Rasha (wicked individual) was punished in an equally transparent fashion, righteousness would be inauthentic. In such a world one’s serving of G-d would stem from promise of reward; proper righteousness emerges from genuine awe and devotion towards our Creator.
Indeed, Iyov’s wife precisely represents shallow righteousness. After Iyov is struck with a miserable case of boils, she instructs Iyov (2:9) to curse God and die. Ramban (ad. loc.) explains that Iyov’s wife believed that one worships Hashem simply for the reward. Once Hashem has eliminated the reward, she reasoned that there is no purpose to continue in the service of Him.

The three friends were not evil individuals. Although Chazal (Bava Metzia 58b) present Iyov’s friends as paradigmatic examples of violators of the prohibition of Ona’at Devarim (cruel speech), their intentions were pure. We must recall that Sefer Iyov (2:13) records that when they first visited Iyov after the calamities that befell him, they sit with him in utter silence for no less than seven days! Indeed this is the source of the well-known Halacha (Moed Katan 28b and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Dei’ah 376:1) that comforters are forbidden to speak until the mourner begins to speak, as sometimes the mourner prefers and needs silence rather than talking.
Despite their good intentions, Iyov’s three friends were clearly theologically misguided, but also mistaken in the manner in which they approached someone who has experienced tragedy. As we noted last week, Sefer Iyov does not only teach philosophy, but also psychology. A therapeutically sound response to Iyov’s cursing the day he was born would have been to listen attentively and to validate his emotions by saying something such as “you are truly angry” or “you must be in great pain.”

Elihu both rejects the simplistic approach of Eliphaz, Bildad and Tzofar that suffering is always explained by sin and Iyov’s strident words to Hashem. He begins by noting that Hashem does communicate with us through dreams (33:15) and with suffering (33:19). In 34:10 he notes that Hashem is just and that sometimes we see evidence of this, such as when He topples extremely powerful evil leaders (34:24; examples would include the fall of Paroh, the Assyrian emperor Sancheirev, and the Babylonian empire). Elihu does not deny Iyov’s complaint that sometimes evil individuals prosper (at least temporarily). However, the fact that seemingly invincible leaders fall demonstrates that there is justice in this world.
In 35:6-7 Elihu states that Hashem is not influenced by man’s good or evil acts. This is a vitally important point as it explains that when Hashem rewards or punishes, He does so not out of personal vengeance or remuneration. Yeshayahu (55:6) expresses this exact point when he states that Hashem’s thoughts and actions fundamentally and qualitatively differ from those of human beings. Elihu thus introduces Iyov to the paradigm shift he must experience in regard to his relationship with and understanding of Hashem. In 36:22-37:13, Elihu furthers this point by instructing Iyov to ponder the greatness of Hashem’s actions. Most importantly, he notes in 37:14-15 that we do not know how Hashem creates the wonders of this world. This teaches the essential lesson that we cannot understand everything that Hashem does. Elihu teaches that just as we are content to live without understanding how Hashem created the world, so too we should make peace with the notion that while Hashem is just, we cannot always comprehend Hashem’s justice.

EDIT.
We both edited out what was off-topic.
I'm far from total agreement with those links.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If you look now towards the left side of the stage, I'll wave back at you

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
Ok, that was weird.
On-topic.
To make it short.
1. We don't know why God does exactly what He does - but we do know some basic statistics of that. "If I understood God - I would be Him."
2. Quite often something looks cruel while it's much more of a mercy than we could ever think of - again we can't see the future nor the full picture.
3. We shouldn't apply our understanding of morality to God - simply because we know so much less than He does about the situation.
4. Faith shouldn't be like "I believe in God cause He fulfils my whims" - but rather "I believe in God and I believe that ALL what He does is for MY good, I'm just unable to grasp it NOW."

 

[Lone Wolf]

Tl;dr: God works in mysterious ways.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Oh wow, I forgot about this thread.

I am an Atheist who believes that if you have a religion and follow it and not harass others of a different faith... You going to send me to a camp too?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Revived from:
OLD THREAD.

I expect the same civilized and curious manner of question I got previously.
Also, this thread is for ALL, regardless of their nationality or religion.
Just be polite - and ask IF you want to ask, I'm not forcing you.
And PLEASE don't turn this into a senseless religion-bash, there are many other threads for such nonsense.
If you don't have a nice thing to say - just be silent, OK?

What are Christians to Jews? In error but saved, infidels, something else?

 

[Maimonides]

Ziggy, civ2, your interaction reminds me of that great movie line: "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

You guys are so far apart in terms of background & culture that it appears unlikely you're going to come to an understanding between you.

Ziggy, for starters, English is probably a 3rd or 4th language for civ2 behind Russian(?), Hebrew &, maybe, Yiddish. Furthermore, civ2 was/is being raised as a deeply devout Jew. This encompasses everything in his life including what he eats, how he dresses, what he does & how & when he does it. He sincerely feels that this thread & his sig are ways to spread some of the light of goodness & make the world a better place. His entire outlook on the world is different than yours. It's natural for him to answer with just a link or a quote because, to him, the Torah & the interpretations of the rabbis of the Talmud, the Orthodox Union or Chabad hold all the explanations that are needed.

civ2, I must repeat my earlier advice that answering questions with nothing but a link renders this thread pointless. The questioners don't want a link. They want to know what YOU think. If you are unwilling or unable to share that, then you should just let this thread die.

Furthermore, you are speaking from such a frum background that even secular Jews will have a hard time gaining insight from your answers, much less non-Jews. If you are serious about maintaining this thread, you need to make the time & effort to explain what YOU think, believe & feel the answer to be before providing other sources.

What's the allure of believing in a god who (in the Old Testament at least, might be different in the Torah) is so vengeful and violent?

Chronicled events like the biblical flood, the killing of the Egyptian first-born, the response to the erection of the Tower of Babel.

Bad answer:

Truronian
I found something "general" - and it seems I'm doing this not for the first time already.
Thirteen Attributes of Mercy.
13 Attributes in depth.

Better answer:

All this shows that God doesn't "want" to punish - He's just "forced" to do so by OUR stubborness.

Speaking of famous biblical punishments - in all cases there was either a direct warning (by prophets or spiritual leaders) or the crime was well-known to the criminal.
In other words, they were simply doing "illegal" stuff, just the "law" was Divine.
So basically I could change your question into "why imprison a thug or why fine a speed limit breaker".

Why Flood?

Personally, I would have pointed out that most Jews who believe in G-d tend to see Him as benevolent.

edit: please no links and "read this".

This is a reasonable expectation.

In case of killing the first-borns, why imprison a thug's or fine a speed limit breaker's kid?

civ2, you missed this question.

Ziggy...Dude, HOW do you imagine me answering such global questions without any links?

If you can't answer on your own, then just say so. If you are incapable of answering anything on your own, then you shouldn't be wasting anyone's time with this thread.

AND, by this I show:
a. It's not (just) my opinion, it has a basis.

Fair enough, but that should come AFTER your opinion. Stop answering with just a link or a quote.

b. I know what I'm talking about.

Nobody is accusing you of ignorance on the subject. Most readers of this thread have no interaction at all with a Jew in their everyday lives & know next to nothing about Judaism. It's clear from your posts, your sig & your location that you are either Orthodox or, more likely, Chasidic (more specifically, Lubavitch).

Forget I asked anything.

If this is what you think a good excuse for God's atrocities, then by all means, be my guest.

Ziggy, civ2 doesn't look that those biblical events as atrocities. He can't even wrap his brain around the idea of G-d committing an atrocity. He's not trying to make excuse for those actions because he doesn't believe that G-d CAN make a mistake, much less do something criminal or sinful. He's throwing some rabbinical commentary at you & expecting that to be good enough. It's good enough for him, but, obviously, not a good enough answer for you.

Table 1, check please!

civ2, this is an English euphemism that means Ziggy is leaving the thread.

Your response is stunningly bad:

Wow! Took 10 seconds to find a link about Job.
Part 1.
Part 2.
Part 3.

I'm far from total agreement with those links.

They do NOT want links as answers. They can find those easily enough on their own.

If you look now towards the left side of the stage, I'll wave back at you

Ziggy
Ok, that was weird.

civ2, that was another English euphemism that means Ziggy is leaving the thread.

On-topic.
To make it short.
1. We don't know why God does exactly what He does - but we do know some basic statistics of that. "If I understood God - I would be Him."
2. Quite often something looks cruel while it's much more of a mercy than we could ever think of - again we can't see the future nor the full picture.
3. We shouldn't apply our understanding of morality to God - simply because we know so much less than He does about the situation.
4. Faith shouldn't be like "I believe in God cause He fulfils my whims" - but rather "I believe in God and I believe that ALL what He does is for MY good, I'm just unable to grasp it NOW."

That was a MUCH better answer. That's the answer you should have given to begin with. Is this starting to sink in?

Tl;dr: God works in mysterious ways.

The best reply in the thread so far.

What are Christians to Jews?

I'd rather let Christians define themselves.

Plotinus' "Ask a Theologian" thread is a much better place to ask what Christians are. That thread is a gold mine of information on Christianity.

In error but saved, infidels, something else?

Ethnocentricity rears it's ugly head.

Being spiritually "saved" is a Christian concept that has no application in Judaism.

Being an infidel is a Muslim concept that has no application in Judaism.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Maimonides, first off

Ziggy, civ2, your interaction reminds me of that great movie line: "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

You guys are so far apart in terms of background & culture that it appears unlikely you're going to come to an understanding between you.

Indeed, which is why I was interested in his answers. His point of view, exactly because it's so alien from mine.

Ziggy, for starters, English is probably a 3rd or 4th language for civ2 behind Russian(?), Hebrew &, maybe, Yiddish. Furthermore, civ2 was/is being raised as a deeply devout Jew. This encompasses everything in his life including what he eats, how he dresses, what he does & how & when he does it. He sincerely feels that this thread & his sig are ways to spread some of the light of goodness & make the world a better place. His entire outlook on the world is different than yours. It's natural for him to answer with just a link or a quote because, to him, the Torah & the interpretations of the rabbis of the Talmud, the Orthodox Union or Chabad hold all the explanations that are needed.

Well, I did realise it's probably not possible to have him break away from pre-fab answers, but I can try can't I?

Things went a little overboard after some time, since every link sparked a dozen other questions, so that's why I removed that last post (which was rather extensive) Funny thing is, that reading those 4 points I also thought: "hey, that was the sort of thing I was after all this time"

It's not necessary to answer that missed question. I'll be in the peanut gallery from here on if I can resist jumping in again.

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
SORRY!
(BAD "names" for smileys... The above one is a perfect "shame" rather than "mischief". )
I'll TRY to say everything in MY words from now on.
The problem was I was trying to show that my opinion is NOT ONLY my opinion - though it still IS my opinion.
I mean, I tried to combine (for the READER) "what I think" with "what Judaism thinks".
If Maimonides is right, then I definitely need to stick more to "what I think" - or at least to say it in my own words.
I was just trying to give as much info as possible - for better UNDERSTANDING!
(Don't you think I'm doing the same mistake RIGHT NOW??? )
Oh, and even though English IS my 3rd language (which definitely makes me unaware of most IDIOMS) - I still can speak rather good, don't I?

Maimonides
Thanks.

Lone Wolf
A nice way to say it.

Domination
Answer already given.
I'd add:
Good neighbours as long as they remain such.
PEACE is the ultimate source for all GOOD.
Humanity has to understand it - and the sooner, the better...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ziggy
SORRY!

No need for apologies mate, it's just a crappy message board after all.

(BAD "names" for smileys... The above one is a perfect "shame" rather than "mischief". )

I'll TRY to say everything in MY words from now on.
The problem was I was trying to show that my opinion is NOT ONLY my opinion - though it still IS my opinion.
I mean, I tried to combine (for the READER) "what I think" with "what Judaism thinks".
If Maimonides is right, then I definitely need to stick more to "what I think" - or at least to say it in my own words.

In that case what you might do is:

*your opinion/an answer in your own words*
link to relevant information

The selection from that link which is relevant

And it's a daunting task to make a thread like this, so I can understand it's rather tough at times to give answers to challenging questions. Especially when you have guys like me around who try to catch you out on them. But if you play your cards right, answering those questions will have you look for answers yourself and everyone comes out a better person

edit: And there's absolutely nothing wrong with the answer: "I don't know". In fact, sometimes it's the best or only answer possible

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
You see, the problem is I look at this seriously (I did START it, didn't I).
So I really want people to understand my answers...
But your "solution" looks quite nice - I'll try it (I'm doing it many times anyways).
The real "problem" might actually be like Maimonides said - I'm TOO "religiously Jewish" to consider some (not TOO many though) "problems" as such.
Therefore I'm trying to give a linked answer to show what other people (in my opinion, more "important", again - personal viewpoint) think rather than just say what I think.
(Even though what I think is either based on or coherent with what those people think.)
Taking the "atrocities" question as an example - there are TWO ways to answer it.
1. To show how it really ISN'T so bad as it looks - but not ALL situations can be solved like this, plus "modern moral" is too subjective for this.
2. Just say "it's God's Will" - which is TRUE, but still conflicts with what people see as "moral".
The REAL problem is (and I already said this somewhere recently) - OUR moral is NOT the source to base God's "moral" on!
We don't know why MOST things happen simply because we lack the ability to see the future or other cause-result connections of any single event.
But God is not limited like us, He's exactly opposite to being limited!
So for Him, there're NO secrets or misunderstanding the situation, He knows perfectly "why".
I call this problem:
"GOD created Human in His image, and then Human created gods in his image (and constantly trys to replace GOD with them)."
Sorry, but that's MY opinion and I'll stick to it.

 

[civ2]

About those first borns.
1. There is a concept of reincarnation in Judaism - and that includes being punished or rewarded for PAST deeds.
Yeah, we can't see it DIRECTLY, but the system still works.
So there's quite a chance that those "innocents" weren't SO innocent after all.
2. Also, who told you about "babies"???
"First born" is usually FAR from being a baby - unlike "last born".
And there is a commentary that says (and it is believable, we see such "logic" nowadays too) that even those Egyptian SLAVES wanted to destroy Jews!
(They'd gain NOTHING from it. What then would you expect from "good" citizens?)
So, the fault is FAR from being Pharaoh's only.
Even more so, there was a WAR between those first borns and Pharaoh!!!
(That's why the Shabbat before Passover is called the Great Shabbat, because the Egyptians fought each other on that day.)
Would you think BABIES can wage a war???
3. God usually acts with people "measure for measure" aka proportionally and accordingly to one's deeds.
In this case, most if not ALL Egyptians (NOT just Pharaoh) were involved in searching and drowning Jewish babies.
Even Egyptian BABIES (and their MOTHERS) had their share by luring the Jewish babies out with their cries.
So, maybe indirectly, but even they had their share of fault.
4. Sum up:
Most of the punished were NOT babies, but adults with their OWN sins.
Alternatively, they were punished for past sins too.
Most if not all Egyptians were killing Jewish babies previously - so it backfired.

EDIT:
How's that for a "personal answer"?

 

[ori]

reincarnation is not actually a concept that has wide traction outside kabbalistic and hassidic groups though, I haven't come accross many or any orthodox (much less liberal/conservative) teachings to this matter - while you are right there is such a concept a mainstream orthodox viewpoint would mostly not be in line with arguing reincarnation in the case you do.