Codex said:
@ Roland Johansen-
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm still trying to grasp the game mechanics, but it's certainly helpful to think about them in relation to broader tactics & strategies.
I appreciate the confirmation about when chopped hammers appear, since I'd been trying out some of the more extreme production switching (which some people thought was an expolit). and I wasn't getting the results that I expected!
And I take all of your points about production comparison and situational needs. I get hung up about specific decisions sometimes when I should be thinking at a different level (city as distinct from tile; civ as distinct from city) -- all of your advice should help, if I can follow it!
I'm still having trouble using missionaries, and I think you get to the heart of the matter: are they worth building, and if so, when? When you list all of their different effects, their value becomes much more apparent. The trade-off, of course, is that missionaries have their greatest impact when they are (relatively) most expensive, and when other civilization needs are most pressing. I'll try spamming them in a game, and see what happens!
@ everybody-
It does seem to me, however, that there are some complexities about missionaries that I haven't yet grasped.
1. How likely are missionaries to fail when converting a city? Does this probability differ for foreign civs? What factors influence this probability? (distance from holy city? shrine built in holy city? different state religion present in target city? other factors?)
2. Is it possible to determine when it would become possible/likely to ask or bribe another civ to convert religions?
3. Are there specific actions that one can take to encourage the spread of a religion in a foreign civ? Does it matter, for instance, if the first conversion in a foreign civ is in the capital? is in a city connected by trade routes?
4. Should I take this topic off this thread, and start another about religion mechanics? (a CFC netiquette question)?
- Codex
Nice to hear that my post was appreciated. I like Zophos' post as I didn't know that the formula was that simple. Thank you Zophos for looking into the matter using the SDK.
There exists also a natural spread of religion. From experience, I know that this is more likely when trade routes are present and when the cities are rather close. Natural spread of religion to a city cannot occur when another religion is already present in the city.
2) When the other civ has no city with your religion, the option to convert to your religion is not even available. When only few of their cities have your religion and the relations are bad, then the option will be available but red (we will never....). As relations improve and more of their cities have your religion, the option becomes available to bribe them to convert to your religion. If relations are excellent, they might even convert for free when you ask them.
Also, when you convert many of their cities and your religion is strong (strong nations have your religion) in the world, they might convert without you asking them. It is just in their best interest to convert to your religion so they do so.
The bigger cities are more important in a consideration to change to a religion (or so it seems).
3) The natural spread has to do with the availability of trade routes and the proximity of the cities.
The AI can also build missionaries to spread a religion and will do so sometimes. If they have the Organized Religion civic, then the option will be available in every city, otherwise a monastery must be constructed first which takes time. The best probability for the AI to build missionaries is of course in their productive cities, so you might want to convert those first. The AI also won't build missionaries that are not of their state religion, so they will only help you to spread the religion further after they have already converted.
In general, you cannot depend on the AI converting its own empire for you.
4) If you want to start a discussion, then you should start another thread. If you want to get a simple direct answer, then this thread is a good starting point.
Are missionaries worth it?
That is always a hard decision. You should compare that with the alternatives. Say that you want to improve your economy (gold + science) by building a missionary to convert a foreign city and getting extra income in your holy city with shrine or by building a library and increasing the science output in this city.
You take a look at the science income of the city and see that it is 10 (say that 50% of 20 commerce in the city goes towards science). The library gives you 25% extra science which amount to 2.5 science. The library costs 90 hammers.
The missionary increases base gold in the holy city by 1 if it is succesful in converting a city. This 1 gold is affected by the buildings in the holy city. If a marketplace and a grocer are already available, then the 1 gold is increased to 1.5 gold (the holy city is a good spot for Wall Street). The missionary costs 40 hammers.
So 2.5 science for 90 hammers or 1.5 gold for 40 hammers. Pretty close.
I would base my decision on other factors like: The library gives 2 extra culture which can help if the city needs that (border city under cultural pressure). You might expect an increase in the science rate from 50% to 60% in the near future, improving the usefullness of the library. You might think that the city or its cottages will grow in the near future and the increase in commerce will be beneficial for the output of the library. You could use a better relationship with your neighbour so converting one of its cities can be beneficial. You will convert one of your own cities which will then get a 25% production bonus on buildings (organized religion), +1 happiness, +1 culture. There can be many factors and you decide which will dominate your decision.
Making the decision can be difficult, but as long as you base the decision on conscious thought and not on some sort of automatic decision, you will be/become a good player.
But it is hard to see what you want with this question. Missionaries can only do one thing, convert a city, so what do you want? Maybe, some options why you would like to convert a city?
)
