Quick Answers / 'Newbie' Questions

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Civrules, Oct 29, 2005.

  1. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    900
    In a number of threads, people talk about cities one tile away from the coast as a thing that should not be done. I don't really get it though - of course, if it'll have the same tiles as an inland one, might as well put it on the coast, but frequently putting a city inland gives you 3-5 additional improvable tiles to work, which is a lot if you don't have an abundance of useful land, while only losing the ability to build Lighthouses and Harbors (and ships, but I only need one or two cities to build those anyway). What other great disadvantages of inland cities am I missing?
     
  2. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    6,374
    Location:
    New Zealand
    You pretty much summed it up. If the weaker tiles due to a lack of a Lighthouse don't bother you, then that's fine if you're happy with that in your own games. A couple of reasons why I usually avoid this myself, though:

    - In multiplayer, you need FAR more than 1-2 cities to remain competitive navally, so you cannot afford to lack coastal cities.
    - If you built the Great Lighthouse (which is usually worth going for on most map types except inland ones), it is always preferable to settle on the coast vs 1 tile off the coast.
     
  3. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Coastal cities also have better trade routes than inland cities, so by founding 1 tile from the coast you are forgoing a significant amount of revenue. Many highly favoured gambits, such as building the Great Lighthouse and/or acquiring Astronomy early, are enhanced by having more coastal cities with their lucrative trade routes. On some maps there's also the potential to combine cities with forts and even lakes to provide canals to speed naval movement.

    Inevitably, though, sometimes the map will dictate that the best location for a city is inland with a few water tiles you can't improve--because a coastal location will put a valuable resource out of the fat cross, or in a spot where an existing city or culture prevents the city from being founded there, etc. When this happens, just try to minimize the water tiles as much as possible.
     
  4. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,292
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    There is nothing wrong with inland cities. Land tiles are usually superior to coastal and sea tiles. However, coastal tiles still have some value when they're improved by a lighthouse. They offer enough food to sustain the citizen working the tile and 2 extra commerce. Nothing wrong with such a tile. A cottage only surpasses it at the village level and that takes a while. Coastal and sea tiles which don't benefit from the presence of a lighthouse are however absolutely horrible tiles. Their output is on the level or below the level of a specialist without the great person points or other bonuses to specialists. If a city has a non-resource coastal or sea tile without the benefit of a lighthouse, then it's effectively a lost tile within the city radius. You could almost always let a citizen do something better than working that tile.

    So you want to minimise these useless tiles by making sure that almost every coastal tile in your empire is used by a city that can build a lighthouse.

    Next to this, coastal cities can build harbours and custom houses and ships and form a connection hub with the sea lanes. The harbours and custom houses can make the trade routes of a coastal city produce some 10-20 extra :commerce: in the late game. That's not a minor benefit.
     
  5. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    6,374
    Location:
    New Zealand
    One other benefit I just remembered is that being able to build a Lighthouse in some locations that are coastal but have lakes nearby as well allows you to turn ordinary lakes into 3 food, 2 commerce tiles which are very good for working.
     
  6. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    2,345
    Location:
    in a Gadda Da Vida
    One occasionally significant additional merit for coastal cities is that if you have finite land, you can squeeze more cities into a given landmass if you settle them on the coast, as opposed to settling them all inland.

    I'd rather have 4-5 coastal cities sharing land tiles than 2-3 wholly inland ones, or 2 inland and one coastal, for example.

    Food, Health, Trade (via Harbours, Custom Houses, GLH), ability to build ships, and potential additional city sites add up to putting cities on the coast unless the site is drastically worse than the 1-off-the-coast site.
     
  7. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2007
    Messages:
    7,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stockholm's B.F.C.
    In the same vein.... one should not be too concerned about having a few unworkable tiles in the BFC. Few cities will ever work all of their tiles anyhow. When choosing location, coastal gives trade routes and opportunity to build sea infrastructure and naval units. That benefit must be weighed against whatever you must give up to make it coastal. Generally --without seafood on them-- coastal/ocean tiles are pretty weak and you won't want to be working them much even if you do choose to settle coastal.
     
  8. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    900
    Thanks for the responses!


    How exactly does that work out? I thought they'd get equal trade routes as coastal cities as long as they were connected to cities on the coast (without having the Great Lighthouse), what's the formula for determining which routes they get then?
     
  9. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    72
    Location:
    Munich
    I am the only Civ with Astronomy, the island i just settled is too far to reach for anyone else and no Civ spawned here. How the heck did those barb macemen get CR2 promotions? :confused: They didnt attack me yet either, they just appeared.
    Does the barb Civilization have civics (ie. Vassalage)?

    The city (which i might lose this turn :sad: )

    Spoiler :
     
  10. _alphaBeta_

    _alphaBeta_ King

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    976
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    What are the requirements in order for you to liberate a city?

    Bismark is next door, and getting beat up pretty bad by Peter. I take Bismark on as a vassal and turn the tide. I capture Dusseldorf, which I confirmed as belonging to Bismark in the log before Peter captured it. I was not presented with an option to liberate it back to Bismark's control. Why?
     
  11. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,292
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    It's not the fact that they're coastal which gives them better trade routes. It's the availability of the harbor and custom house which enhances their trade route output. Furthermore, the algorithm which assigns foreign trade routes to your cities, picks the cities with harbors and custom houses for the best trade routes. So coastal cities with harbors (and custom houses) get the best foreign trade routes which are then enhanced by the bonuses of the harbor and custom house.

    As said in my previous post, in the late game this can easily increase the output of commerce from trade routes in such cities by 10-20 :commerce:.
     
  12. IAM

    IAM Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,898
    Location:
    wish I knew

    Some of that has to do with cultural influence, i think. Is the city still in anarchy? and have you tried to contact Bismark directly and offer him the city through the trade screen?
     
  13. _alphaBeta_

    _alphaBeta_ King

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    976
    Location:
    NJ, USA
    The plot had 99% German culture and it was still in anarchy from when Peter captured it. Since I thought I couldn't give it back to Bismarck I destroyed the city originally. To get to the bottom of this, I reloaded the save and tried some things:

    1. I too figured the city needed to come out of anarchy first, but waiting a turn for this to happen and then attacking had the same result: still no option to return the city to the German empire. Turns out anarchy is not relevant, but thanks IAM for the suggestion.

    2. I discovered that I could liberate the city back to Bismarck a couple turns later via diplomacy or the liberate screen, but why not when I first captured the city?

    3. It turns out the answer to #2 was that Peter had some units adjacent to the city. I confirmed that removing those units before attacking the city allowed for the "return the city to the German empire" to be an option upon city capture. The same thing happened if I attacked the city first - originally no liberate option. But that same turn if I removed the adjacent threat, I could liberate.

    So it looks like you can't liberate a city if it's threatened. Who knew?
     
  14. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,292
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    I didn't know that, but it does make sense. It could be very exploitable otherwise. A human player could repeatedly liberate the same city for high diplomacy bonuses.
     
  15. BrantleyL1

    BrantleyL1 Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2007
    Messages:
    296
    Location:
    Plano, TX
    All of the talk about coastal vs inland got me to thinking...

    Game opens and you have a settler & a warrior. The tile you are on w/the settler looks pretty good, but it looks like you are three tiles from the coast (or at least a large body of water). So, you move your warrior and check. Sure enough, it looks like it's costal (you can never be 100% certain until you've explored some more). So, do you settle inland with a pretty good spot and start your research OR, do you move to the coast - maybe costing two or three turns and settle there?

    I know "it depends", but anyone have some "rules of thumb" for this situation??
     
  16. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    6,374
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Depends on the layout of the resources. If they're not that strong around the starting location, or many of them are located such that they could be used by either city (coastal or founded in place), I might consider moving. But usually, I'd just settle in place, unless I'm 1 tile off the coast - in which case I'll almost always move to be on the coast.
     
  17. Silu

    Silu Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,964
    Location:
    Finland
    Three tiles of coast, basically never worth moving. Your capital is usually going to be very big, so land tiles are good. Don't get dazzled by all this talk about coastal trade routes, working coastal tiles often sucks and working ocean tiles always sucks - avoiding them altogether is often a good idea. Now, starting one tile off coast is another issue but even then it's often not worth moving. I've been in situations where I've moved the starting settler from the coast 1 tile inland and settled there.
     
  18. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,292
    Location:
    the Netherlands
    In this game, the output of your civilization (gold, science, production) grows almost exponentially with the number of turns. This makes it extremely important to start this exponential growth with a good starting city and far less important to think about the position of your 3-rd or 4-th city and whether they will be nicely positioned with respect to the coast lines. And at this point the distribution of tiles among your various cities is also not of prime importance.

    With the first city, you grab the best possible position for early growth and expansion of your civilization. You worry later about the positioning of the cities in your empire.
     
  19. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Messages:
    7,659
    Location:
    Inside an Ikanda.
    Small gameplay question,

    If I have : Conquest, Space Race and Diplomatic Victory checked,
    and I play Single or HotSeat, can I :
    * Win the Diplomatic Victory, and then go onto the Space Race?
    And by can you achieve all 3 victories in 1 game? (let's say Diplomatic, Space Race, then Conquest?)
     
  20. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    36,862
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    You can only score one victory per game, even if you conquer everyone, get 3 cities of 50,000+ culture and send a ship to Alpha Centauri.
     

Share This Page