Quick Questions / Quick Answers

[Questdog]

I just had a city get 3,000 Science and Culture as an Instant Yields in the Medieval Era and I cannot figure out why. The city is neither my capital nor a Holy City. The only thing I have that gives large yields is Way of Transcendence, but that goes to my Capital and I already got that when I entered the Medieval Era and it was 840 yields, not 3,000. The Log just says, "Instant Yields".

 

[YukiN]

I just had a city get 3,000 Science and Culture as an Instant Yields in the Medieval Era and I cannot figure out why. The city is neither my capital nor a Holy City. The only thing I have that gives large yields is Way of Transcendence, but that goes to my Capital and I already got that when I entered the Medieval Era and it was 840 yields, not 3,000. The Log just says, "Instant Yields".

Oracle on Marathon speed?

 

[Questdog]

Oracle on Marathon speed?

That's it! Thank you!

 

[YukiN]

Is there a reason scaling from Envoy to Diplomat is so poor? The cost triples while the base influence only goes from 45 to 50. The +1 move is nice but that doesn't really matter when embarked.

 

[Questdog]

Is there a reason scaling from Envoy to Diplomat is so poor? The cost triples while the base influence only goes from 45 to 50. The +1 move is nice but that doesn't really matter when embarked.

I asked this not too long ago in this same thread. No one had a good answer and Gazebo did not comment. Upgrading from Envoys to Diplomats is really a downgrade and a huge one at that.

 

[tu_79]

Is there a reason scaling from Envoy to Diplomat is so poor? The cost triples while the base influence only goes from 45 to 50. The +1 move is nice but that doesn't really matter when embarked.

Production and gold get so much better that otherwise, late CS contests would be unbearable. If your production doubles, and diplomats are 25% worse than envoys, you actually have 50% more diplomatic power.

 

[YukiN]

I asked this not too long ago in this same thread. No one had a good answer and Gazebo did not comment. Upgrading from Envoys to Diplomats is really a downgrade and a huge one at that.

It comes at the same tech as Westminster, so that may be part of the reason, I'll bring it up on the balance boards if there are no further replies over the next few days.

In the meantime, is there anywhere I can find the mechanics of espionage? Stealing stuff and disruptions are fairly intuitive, but I see reference to causing unrest that I'm not sure how to utilize.

 

[CppMaster]

Production and gold get so much better that otherwise, late CS contests would be unbearable. If your production doubles, and diplomats are 25% worse than envoys, you actually have 50% more diplomatic power.

So it's better to unlock new diplomat units as late as possible.

 

[tu_79]

So it's better to unlock new diplomat units as late as possible.

If you purchase you diplo units, yes. If you produce them with hammers, I'm not sure. Time is very valuable.

 

[YukiN]

Production and gold get so much better that otherwise, late CS contests would be unbearable. If your production doubles, and diplomats are 25% worse than envoys, you actually have 50% more diplomatic power.

But that's for everyone, so at least there is parity. As it stands, the tech leader gets punished for being ahead in a very unintuitive way. I understand the need for rubberbanding mechanics, but it's really a bizarre way of going about it.

If you purchase you diplo units, yes. If you produce them with hammers, I'm not sure. Time is very valuable.

Envoys are 200 hammers. Diplomats are 700.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

...but I see reference to causing unrest that I'm not sure how to utilize.

As far as I know the target must be in negative happiness. But it might changed some time ago.

 

[Enginseer]

Because City-State Bonuses scale (by a lot) once you unlocked Diplomat era.

Mercantile bonus gets increased.
Maritime bonus gets increased.
A majority of the militaristic units are unlocked around the same time.

 

[YukiN]

Because City-State Bonuses scale (by a lot) once you unlocked Diplomat era.

Mercantile bonus gets increased.
Maritime bonus gets increased.
A majority of the militaristic units are unlocked around the same time.

Suppose city states get 10x better in Industrial, my primary consideration is still other civs. I will be willing to pay a 10x higher price because of the improvement but so will the AI until the marginal benefits become the same as before. The problem here is that relative to other civs who have not unlocked the tech, a civ which has is at a huge disadvantage and this creates a warped incentive to go around the tech.

Note that I am perfectly happy with making diplomacy harder for stronger civs, but the current implementation is really clunky. I propose just a cost multiplier based on tech number or any other measure of progress to smooth out the progression.

 

[tu_79]

Suppose city states get 10x better in Industrial, my primary consideration is still other civs. I will be willing to pay a 10x higher price because of the improvement but so will the AI until the marginal benefits become the same as before. The problem here is that relative to other civs who have not unlocked the tech, a civ which has is at a huge disadvantage and this creates a warped incentive to go around the tech.

Note that I am perfectly happy with making diplomacy harder for stronger civs, but the current implementation is really clunky. I propose just a cost multiplier based on tech number or any other measure of progress to smooth out the progression.

I can't remember. Are diplomatic buildings required to purchase diplomatic units? If so, the ability to purchase diplomats might be better than purchasing envoys, even if the former cost more. The limit for paper makes the flow of influence matters.

The extra cost is made up with the production bonus, but producing boosted envoys, cheap as it may be, takes valuable production time. Gold, on the other hand, is just a question of how much military power you want to risk.

 

[Questdog]

I can't remember. Are diplomatic buildings required to purchase diplomatic units? If so, the ability to purchase diplomats might be better than purchasing envoys, even if the former cost more. The limit for paper makes the flow of influence matters.

The extra cost is made up with the production bonus, but producing boosted envoys, cheap as it may be, takes valuable production time. Gold, on the other hand, is just a question of how much military power you want to risk.

Diplomatic units require Paper. Diplomats cost 3.5 times the hammers and twice the paper, so they are actually 7 times more expensive than Envoys and are 10% more effective. They bring your Diplo-spam to a screaming halt.

The problem to me is that there is no Diplomatic unit in the Renaissance Era. Envoys are Medieval and Diplomats are Industrial. There needs to be a unit in the Renaissance Era between the two.

Like YukiN said, if you are building Diplomats and your opponents are building Envoys, you are at a huge disadvantage.

 

[CrazyG]

Because City-State Bonuses scale (by a lot) once you unlocked Diplomat era.

Mercantile bonus gets increased.
Maritime bonus gets increased.
A majority of the militaristic units are unlocked around the same time.

What is the diplomat era?

The cost jump from emissary to envoy is huge. Its on a tech that does not affect city state bonuses. You can potentially avoid the tech for a long time, while still reaching later eras and getting higher CS benefit. Same situation applies for diplomats (I avoid unlocking this tech for this reason).

 

[Enginseer]

What is the diplomat era?

The cost jump from emissary to envoy is huge. Its on a tech that does not affect city state bonuses. You can potentially avoid the tech for a long time, while still reaching later eras and getting higher CS benefit. Same situation applies for diplomats (I avoid unlocking this tech for this reason).

The era that diplomats are unlocked.

It's huge because that's what it was already discussed that people weren't building emissaries and the cost had to be reduced to its value now. People will still build envoys and diplomats since these units have promotions that increase the diplomatic value already provided you have the CSD buildings.

It's also an anti-snowball mechanic since a civ can't just get a ton of techs and immediately start out-competing someone in CS influence easily.

 

[YukiN]

We are clogging up the thread a little. I've created a thread on General Balance so please move the discussion there.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/scaling-of-diplomatic-units.637950/

 

[Questdog]

Why am I not getting Coal from Vancouver? There was a mine on the coal already before I researched Steam Power and I have been their ally for a long time.

 

[John.B.C]

How could mongolia annex bucharest when no troops are in sight? I guess their military power was enough (kind of weak though I think); since bucharest was liberated standing naked with no troops.