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raging barbarians

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by j_jimmy, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Tuvok694

    Tuvok694 Hates barbarians.

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    Typically, it goes like this: I move my first warrior in his first move one tile away from the just founded capital. In turn 2 or 3, a barbarian scout appears on the opposite side of the capital and moves straight back to the barb camp which is four tiles away from my capital. In round 4 or 5 the first barbarian horseman appears, one turn later the next one and one turn later the next one. Neither my first warrior nor my first slinger have a chance against the horseman. And by the time I could have three or more warriors to be able to destroy that damn camp, the barbs can surround my city with horsemen. Then I mostly give up, because the AI has settled all around me and are many many techs ahead of me.
    I have given up hope that we will see another patch that fixes the barb problem. This will remain a major nuisance in the final version of Civilization 6.
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    it is not exactly often that this happens. Seems a tad exaggerated.
     
    Ondolindë likes this.
  3. ghost88

    ghost88 Warlord

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    What mods are you playing that changes the default time the 1st scout appears? I ask because the default setting for the 1st barb scout's appearance is turn 7 which by that time you should have explored and located nearby camps and destroyed the scout at it's inception.
     
  4. Stylianos

    Stylianos Chieftain

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    The turn 7 scout is actually is with the mod Yet not Another Maps Pack. Unmoded civ 6 doesn't have that option !!!!!
     
  5. ghost88

    ghost88 Warlord

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    My bad. :(
    But, it shows how great a mod YnAMP is.
     
  6. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I've gotten used to barb camps the way they are, and I'm fine with the system. Occasionally I get so hammered I fall hopelessly behind, but not usually. Then again, I'm only playing on Emperor. Barbs by themselves are not scary, it's when you have barbs on one side and an aggressive neighbor on the other that it gets a bit scary. As an above post mentions, it's like a mini game. Sometimes you lose, but usually you win. To me, this introduces a level of realism in Civ games. Don't like it, turn barbs off. Ai is actually stronger with barbs off, or they used to be (haven't played with barbs off in well over a year and a half)

    Only time I didn't like it was with the bug right after GS came out with endless spawns.
     
  7. Tuvok694

    Tuvok694 Hates barbarians.

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    ...and just when I finally thought, NOW I have enough archers to finally take out this barb camp that's been bothering me for so many rounds...
    ...they have CROSSBOWS now and also three new swordsmen which I had not met before.
    So it's goodbye to that beautiful campus which I would desperately need and back to building units for a century or so...
     
  8. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    So that's indicative that you're an era behind the world average in tech so, yeah, you can expect to have a bad time.
     
  9. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    I just played a game as Poundmaker.
    Not great land and I was coastal.
    I had a ton of horses and iron though.

    I was getting barbed like no tomorrow lol.
    Literally 4 or 5 camps and new ones would pop up as I cleared them.
    Brazil was a close neighbor and I got the whole world to hate them.
    So I focused on horses too early and too much as it turned out.

    I was able to Pillage Brazil but it seemed like a bad idea to crash into the cities.
    That is until they got a couple Xbows and Knights.
    So I made peace and kept up the war machine.
    I neglected expansion compared to other games.
    I used a medieval golden age along with pillaging to get out some cities, workers and trade routes.

    I took a backside city and couldn't get the one in front because of the walls.
    Had to make peace a second time.

    The game was up to turn 115 and my spt was lagging.
    Around 60 spt, which is horrible but I was in second and most of the AI were at 55 or so.
    My point is that it just didn't work out so great.
    I find it hard to balance everything out so the synergy works.
    Perhaps I should of just crashed horses into the city before it had walls.
    I was trying to pillage more as I read it is better than taking the cities themselves.
    Personally I find it better to take those cities if you can, while you can over some of the pillaging.
     
  10. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Sure, it is absurd, broken, needs tweaking. There are a lot of threads about this topic. In most of them, the consensus reflects a turning point where there's no longer the kneejerk reaction of defending the status quo. The whole "shame-on-you-for-not-killing-the-scout", the silly player-blaming rationales that fault someone for settling on a hill...that's taking devil's advocacy to as asinine place.

    It is the combination of A) being able to spawn the most cutting edge units, B) being able to harvest resources anywhere nearby and C) being able to spawn multiple units without pause that amounts to something preposterous. They are, after all, supposed to represent barbarians. They are not supposed to be an enormous nuisance that shoves units down a player's throat without break. They are there just to give players an incentive to early military development. Something is off.

    When I sick a warrior on a coastal barb camp, why is a quadreme suddenly spawning there to promptly annihilate it--in the ancient era? I'll tell you because it isn't because quadremes reflects "average" tech for that era, because in a typical at least half the civ's don't pursue naval techs. Same goes for the rapidity of spawn horse units. I don't think the barbs even have to wait for any civ to actually build a unit first before it's unlocked for them.
     
  11. Mahi

    Mahi Warlord

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    Recently I started to play large maps and there seems to be a jump in barbarian camps from standard to large maps. I guess it's due to the increased land area that makes room for all those camps. There's definetely a stragety change when playing larger maps. I always get a relegion on standard map size but do fail from time to time on larger maps because I need to focus on barbarians while expanding. It makes it a bit harder to get a shrine going early on.
     
  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Barbarians are fine. Yes, sometimes it gets a bit nuts. But that’s just life at higher difficulties. Overall they bring a fun dynamic.

    They also have an interesting interaction with Eurekas and Era system, which I quite like.

    My only real gripe with Barbarians is they can be a bit repetitive because they don’t have much variation beyond Horse Archers. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect FXS to add a tonne of new Barbarian mechanics to the game. But hopefully we can get at least a few alternate units for them at some point.

    What would be really great is something that pulls together Barbarians, Goody Huts and Free Cities, so that “Barbarians” are more like a real faction on the game board, and but like how City States are currently. But that’s probably too much to expect, and so really I think the most anyone can hope for is a few more unique barb units. Go axemen.
     
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  13. Abaxial

    Abaxial Prince

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    There is an interesting mod called Wild Life, which adds wild animals and even dinosaurs to the map. They are technically in the barbarian faction, but don't spawn in camps, so you can't eliminate them come the mid-to-late game. You can still find a crocodile pop up in the middle of your empire to eat a trader. Also, moving religious units long distances by sea is difficult, because if not heavily escorted with naval units, they will get snapped up by sharks.
     
  14. Tuvok694

    Tuvok694 Hates barbarians.

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    I completely disagree. It's not unusual to have three barb camps right around your capital. And each of them spawns one unit every turn for five turns or so. Until turn 30 I have seen more barbarian units than turns have passed. That's just insane. And you cannot switch barbs off completely because the AI will destroy you even faster than they do in any normal game.
    Maybe I am just dumb, but I absolutely cannot understand how anyone could think this is "fun".
     
  15. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    On the contrary, I find that circumstance *highly* unusual (and I'm certain most others do too). Perhaps yours is an anecdotal recounting of a bad experience or two that you have conflated?
     
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  16. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Well, I hesitate to be so argumentative as to speak with certainty for the experience of players on the whole, but I will say that the typical civ map suffers from having too many civ's packed too closely together. One consequence of that is that barb camps simply aren't afforded enough places to spawn to the rapacious degree you describe.

    Now, yours is a fair assessment of a game I play when I find I have lots of land to myself, such as when I cut down on the number of civ's and CS's, or when I wind up being the civ at the bottom or top of a map with expanses of tundra and snow. And there are the jungly-heavy regions that have limited lines of sight. These are rife with barb camps. It's then when the overly generous allocations to barbarians can be onerous, because they will spawn a two-melee/one-ranged combo in one turn, and then upon any of those units dying, the barb camp will immediately replenish that unit, and thereby have an advantage in terms attrition.

    As to how anyone can think such a situation is fun, it's precisely because it injects something brutal and chaotic into a game that is too often formulaic, plodding, and procedural. Players often feel like they're walking the bases to victory. AI civ's are often easy to placate, and even when they do go to war, they often fail to prioritize military units. So when barbs spawn, it's a welcome change in pace because you can't buy them off. All they want to do is attack.

    Do try to always remind yourself that the barbarians tend to attack unto death, and when they don't have a ranged advantage (like spawning xbows when you only have archers. and must I again bring up the ancient-era quadremes?), then you can often fortify in defensive terrain and let them exhaust themselves against you. A warrior can outlast a barb horseman or sword in such instances with a +5 from a policy that you should certainly slot if you are suffering barbaric calamity. Don't press the attack any more than you have to. Camps do seem to slow down their spawn rate after seven or eight units.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  17. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Basically what @steveg700 said. Since I started using @Sostratus balance mod, I find barbs are even more brutal. They change what is happening tactically quite a bit. I had a game recently where barbs acted as a buffer, keeping Norway busy while I peacefully expanded. Although I then got too greedy, and the nipping little rats then razed one of my cities!?! Grr. Still, very fun.

    There are fun nuances to barbs. You can level up a new army. Era score - sometimes I’m looking for barbs to push a golden age, other times I have to leave the camps and risk barb storms because I want that dark age. Sending scouts out far or sending naked settlers have real risks. Keeping a builder around with a single charge to repair is a must.

    I just wish barbs had a little more variety. More unique barb units would be a big improvement. Barb camps acting a bit more like cities would be nice, so they feel less like wandering monsters. Actual barb Cities would be awesome, but so,etching that involved is not quite worth the effort and there are other things FXS should concentrate on as a priority. Yeah, really, I’d be happy with just a few more unique units for barbs.
     
  18. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    For those wondering, it sets spears to have 30 base combat, instead of 25, so your starting warrior no longer has free +5 against them. Now, you are always free to build your own spearmen for barb hunting, or bring an archer.
    But I felt that making spears an actually viable ancient/early classic unit outweighed this relative edge case where your starting warriors could hack through camps 20% faster.
     
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  19. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I actually feel like the change improves the balance of barbs. Clearing the actual barb camp with warriors is much harder.
     
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  20. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer King

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    Barbs in general do not bother me too much because I play with an unlimited barb XP mod. If I am going to be stuck fighting those idiots over the millienea, I am going to earn XP for it, especially when they ignore juicier targets JUST to ding the human player.
     
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