Ragnar Danneskjold: A Tale of Freedom

PaulusIII · May 13, 2009

Once we are secure from barbarians (which has been greatly sped up with popping archery from a goody hut) we should also aim for Masonry and the Pyramids. With bulbs and other uses being forbidden that's gonna be a lot of settled GP's. Not to mention that we want them for Rep badly since we're not allowed to go HR and our civics would be stuck in the stone age. Thankfully our scout has revealed quite a lot of places with production potential, so I'd like to get started on the Mids as soon as possible.

Avoiding demands would need some pre-emptive diplomacy... here we'll mostly have to see who is the international pariah, and avoid trading with him. The problem comes when war breaks out.

oynaz · May 13, 2009

An alternative to running representation is running universal suffrage. Our capital is very production poor, and running US would enable us to buy infrastructure for it. BTW, I think we should use watermills in Friesvig on the two southern plains and the northern grassland. Moai statues are another option

Anyway, the mids are looking like a very important wonder, so we better get started on it soon. If we chop it in our capital, it is going to cost us all the forests. Alternatively, I have dotmapped two good production cities, blue on my map. Yellow can be used for production or commerce:

Anar · May 13, 2009

Build order. Workbout->worker seems better, as crab tile produces 4f3c, which boosts our research considerably. So it would be workbout->(size 3)worker->workbout->(size 4)worker.

Pyramids would be really great in this setting, however I dont see any stone + we have NO production in our capital, which makes pyramids unreachable. Chopping doesnt seem to be an option as Pyramids cost 500 hammers, chopping pre-math equals 20 hammers, so we would need 25 forests (I took values from normal gamespeed, so if we scale both values to epic, my estimates should hold). Moreover we need to chop settlers and workers in our capital. Saving some forests for NE and the Great Libarary, should we have marble, might be wise.

Eastmost city in oynaz's dotmap is strong and we should settle it as a first one. To make any more decisions about new cities we should probably need to know what's to the west.

Tarkhan · May 13, 2009

Lurker: Interesting variant...going to lead to lots of :hammer:

Hope you get copper and iron....

oynaz · May 13, 2009

I agree about settling the easternmost city first. I suggest making a gamble for the pyramids. Go worker - archer - settler - worker -archer, settle the city, and make the pyramids in it as fast as possible. :crazyeye:

Techpath would then be BW - masonry.
The fact that we got archery makes this possible. On emperor, I would go for it, but it might be too big a gamble on immortal.

Pindrus · May 13, 2009

Beware that if you build the Pyramids and run Rep or US (or Police state for that matter), you will be liable to demands from HC to switch to his favorite Hereditary Rule government. :hammer:

and all that...

oynaz · May 13, 2009

Rules clarification: Do we only have to declare on people who make demands, or do we declare on requests as well?

Anar · May 13, 2009

I assume we have to declare upon demanding, not requesting.

About Pyramids: new city will have two hills and plenty of forests. Trying to chop Pyramids in it with MATHS and help of those hills would be a long shot. Anyway as Tarkhan pointed Pyramids would make us susceptible to early war declarations, without it we can stay clear of monarchy. Any other ideas about Pyramids?

Earthling · May 14, 2009

oynaz said:
Rules clarification: Do we only have to declare on people who make demands, or do we declare on requests as well?

I'm not sure what you mean...

We're not supposed to make make straight out demands of other civs, but if we wanted to we could offer them, say, a tech to change civics or something. But if we're the one initiating such a scenario, then no, we don't use that to declare war.

So the rule concerning AI behavior, a simple heuristic: if any AI comes to us with their side of the trade table blank, we must DoW them. It could be tech, religion, civics, stop-trading-with-another-AI,whatever. We're aware the AI won't offer tech in exchange for this stuff like they do with other AI. Their mistake.

If they offer us gifts we'll be lenient at first, as already mentioned, though that doesn't happen very often. Perhaps if a (Pleased/Friendly) AI offers a gift at some point we could acquiesce to something later, but that's really about the only loophole.

In general I'd think we have to keep this rule the priority over the others - for instance if I wasn't clear enough it would definitely be ok to to found academies or something as the story progresses, just avoid bulbs and the non-thematic GP things like culture bombs or engineer rushes and the like. Corporations should also be ok when (if) we survive that late. But we can't accept any AI demands, that's the whole lesson to be learned from our story. Hopefully this won't come up for a while but yes, Huayna could be a problem with his civics, we'll deal with that when it gets to us.

Edit: But yes, I'm endorsing this pyramids plan, good luck and have fun with it Loki. Turn cutoff doesn't have to be exactly 50 if you have a better point but you're certainly ok to play up through 50-60 to get to a good spot.

Anar · May 14, 2009

Earthling said:
I'm not sure what you mean...

What he meant was that when a civilization is please or friendly with us they come with requests, while when they are cautious and worse they come with demands. And I initially thought we cannot acquiesce to their DEMANDS, but your clarification sheds a new light on our game, as this indeed will turn into AW sooner or later and I can hardly see any chance here.

So I would like to propose that either move to emperor or soften this rule to 'demands only'. What do you think about it?

Loki Strikes · May 14, 2009

Chapter 2: The Tale of Beowulf

We begin this, our second chapter, by chronicling the escapades of our brave scout who shall now be known as Beowulf. Beowulf is seen here surviving the attack of a wolf, and as all men know wolves travel in packs, and while healing from the first attack, he successfully fought off another wolf.

Beowulf brought tales of his deeds to a village, the villagers awestruck by his storytelling showered him with gold.

In his honor a second fleet of fishing boats was commissioned and to the delight of Ragnar discovered a second prosperous fishing area full of crabs.

That same year Bronzeworking was discovered and several locations were discovered

the scientists were then instructed to explore the secrets of agriculture in order to give the workforce in training a task to do, reasoning that AH would be researched while the corn was improved and the discount would result in a minimal amount of workers turns lost and the workforce could prechop a forest in the meantime, however Ragnar thought not of this, but of the fact that with agriculture would come the cultivation of Hops, and with Hops... Beer

Beowulf keenly sighted the borders of a strange land, curiosity drew him closer

On the final turn of this chapter we met a strange looking man with some crazy socioeconomic ideas, he offered me a red book, which I graciously accepted as after all it is good diplomatic practice.

I had to stop play at this point due to family issues and I did not have the concentration to resume playing.

Research is set at AH, I would research AH next, then wheel/meditation-masonry for full discount on masonry and for ability to build monument in next city get out one more workboat or an archer or two and a settler then chop pyramids.

Bug Log

Spoiler :

Earthling · May 14, 2009

Anar said:
What he meant was that when a civilization is please or friendly with us they come with requests, while when they are cautious and worse they come with demands. And I initially thought we cannot acquiesce to their DEMANDS, but your clarification sheds a new light on our game, as this indeed will turn into AW sooner or later and I can hardly see any chance here.

So I would like to propose that either move to emperor or soften this rule to 'demands only'. What do you think about it?

I see where there could be confusion then. And I also see how it is something worth considering. We're not getting out of wars that easily though, we should at least be prepared. Since I don't know of a way to change difficulty at this point, only at the start, we definitely want to just look into the rule as we see fit. So what do you all think of the following:

-Demands (Cautious and below): are still met with a DoW. Whatever they are, tech, civics, doesn't matter. We ARE here to stand up for our freedom, after all.
-Requests (Pleased and above as you guys are referring to): I'd break these into two categories. "Requests" for tech or resources are unexcusable; simply because they come to us with a nicer attitude doesn't mean they aren't opposing all we stand for. Otherwise we could consider on a case-by-case basis. Early game civics I could see letting by, at least once; late-game however we should be using the UN, and anyone asking us to adopt Police State or Theocracy doesn't get a grace period. Same goes with religion - while we're still in the pagan state I can see letting it slide, later we should have free religion anyway. A nice balance on trade, I think - if they ask us to stop free trade with someone else, we immediately stop all trade with them (but not DoW the first time I guess). Any other suggestions?

Also, nice work Loki Strikes. But I hardly think we'd "graciously" accept that LITTLE RED BOOK OF EVIL. Keep on eye on that one.

Diamondeye · May 15, 2009

If we are planning settling the easternmost dot, I'd think "Fjordsmunde" would be a nice name. I'm busy the next couple of days, so if someone can get it before sunday, please do.

Loki Strikes · May 15, 2009

Earthling said:
I see where there could be confusion then. And I also see how it is something worth considering. We're not getting out of wars that easily though, we should at least be prepared. Since I don't know of a way to change difficulty at this point, only at the start, we definitely want to just look into the rule as we see fit. So what do you all think of the following:

-Demands (Cautious and below): are still met with a DoW. Whatever they are, tech, civics, doesn't matter. We ARE here to stand up for our freedom, after all.
-Requests (Pleased and above as you guys are referring to): I'd break these into two categories. "Requests" for tech or resources are unexcusable; simply because they come to us with a nicer attitude doesn't mean they aren't opposing all we stand for. Otherwise we could consider on a case-by-case basis. Early game civics I could see letting by, at least once; late-game however we should be using the UN, and anyone asking us to adopt Police State or Theocracy doesn't get a grace period. Same goes with religion - while we're still in the pagan state I can see letting it slide, later we should have free religion anyway. A nice balance on trade, I think - if they ask us to stop free trade with someone else, we immediately stop all trade with them (but not DoW the first time I guess). Any other suggestions?

Also, nice work Loki Strikes. But I hardly think we'd "graciously" accept that LITTLE RED BOOK OF EVIL. Keep on eye on that one.

Was a joke reference to Obama-Chavez and then Obama's joke about it at a recent speech :lol:

Earthling · May 15, 2009

Timeframe is perfectly find Diamondeye, if you're next up I guess, don't be worried at all. Have fun. And once again it is a nice write-up Loki, good work.

So, some strategy to discuss:
-Is everyone on board with a Pyramids chop? We also want to make sure we have agreement on the second/third city sites. I'd prioritize the next two as claiming the copper/corn/sheep to the South, and then cutting off Mao along those mountains (good production site as already mentioned). If everyone's in agreement then we wish great speed to Diamondeye.

-Techwise I'm not sure AH is such a priority, unless we're settling the next city with sheep rather than corn in the first ring? The sheep in the capital won't be needing improvement all that soon, our Worker has a lot of chopping ahead of him. We're not exactly in a hurry to Masonry though, so my first idea is switching to The Wheel. Sometime we should also be able to get Pottery rather fast with prereq bonuses I'd think, unlocking granaries/nice fp cottages. One other possibility is skipping Wheel for a while altogether, if we settle coastal and get Sailing, though I'm rather hesitant to do this.

timmy827 · May 15, 2009

Earthling said:
But I hardly think we'd "graciously" accept that LITTLE RED BOOK OF EVIL. Keep on eye on that one.

Indeed, only Stalin could really be considered worse. I would make an RP suggestion of never trading with Mao.

Anar · May 16, 2009

Do you really believe we can build Pyramids in time? Is it just me who think it unrealistic? If we really want to give it a shot I propose we go The wheel -> Pottery -> Masonry -> Writing -> Mathematics, as we will need those extra hammers from chopping.

About the rule clarification. They are fine by me. Looks tough, but we have to manage for freedom's sake!

About the civics allowed I see nothing wrong about Hereditary Rule. For me it appears to be perfectly freedom wise.

Not trading with Mao would be cool. Who wants to trade with a commie, but this would entail not trading with most leaders

American Civilization didn't adopt much freedom either so we could not trade with Huayna either.

PaulusIII · May 16, 2009

If we're going to bar trading with oppressive leaders we might see a lot of difficulty though. There were a lot of oppressors during history and we might end up without any trade partners at all, bar the likes of Gandhi. :lol:

While I like the proposed sites, we must remember that we might be overstretching ourselves that way. I'd prefer to settle closer, but the land around Friesvig isn't that good.

Head straight for the mids, chop them as fast as possible. If we're going Math for the increased chop hammers, we might also consider pre-chopping all our forests before Math and then chopping as soon as we get the bonus. We might be able to manage early Math seeing as we've got some good sea commerce, and we can raise early income as well by cottages (for instance the FP to our south) while we keep using Friesvig as a worker/settler pump.

Anar's proposed tech path seems good to me - we don't really need the sheep tile(s) yet so AH can wait. Wheel->Pottery->Masonry->Writing->Math.

Diamondeye · May 17, 2009

The tale continues...

Beowulf's travels now carried him westwards; through the chinese forests and past many a towering peak. One day, he finds himself confronted with yet another beast of the wilds: a wolf approaches:

However, it is no match for Beowulf, who is by now better than the wolves themselves in finding his way through the forests (+ Woodsman II). Beowulf's travels carry him farther west, where he meets a group of archers under command of a man who calls himself "Joao". A most deceitful ruler, this wicked man has succumbed to forcing his subjects into labour:

Beowulf heads north, away from the savage Portuguese archers.

Meanwhile, in Friesvig, the Viking sages have stumbled upon what we already aknowledge as one of the most brilliant inventions in the time of man:

The Wheel is a marvelleous construction; it can carry enormeous weight without encumbering a single part; the weight is distributed evenly across the majestic span of it's circle-like shape: this is how a society must work for prosperity to blossom: everyone must do their fullest without ever being overencumbered by his load. A truly magnificent invention!

Meanwhile, Beowulf meets more savages, this time they are hostile:

He escapes the shafts of the barbarians and makes his way northward once more.

It is here he finds the lands of the glorious Inca, Huayna Capac. Not only does it look like the Incans have discovered the reddish metal known as copper; they have also been as fortunate as to find truffles in one of their forests:

As this chapter of the story comes to an end, the Vikings are almost ready to send out a party to settle their next city, Fiordsmunde, to the south. A group of Warriors have been sent ahead to make sure that no savages will ambush the peoples of Friesvig as they make their way southwards.

Spoiler Tech tree and OOC comments :

Earthling · May 17, 2009

First, a couple things to mention - I'm updating the OP with a clarification on the Demands rules. About the latest suggestion, though, I don't think we need to "avoid" leaders based on their actual history/personalities. The spirit of civ after all is that things can turn out differently. So there's no reason we couldn't trade with Mao/whomever, assuming it doesn't clash with the standards our society already keeps.

Second, nice work Diamondeye. Good luck to whomever's next again. I didn't see someone claim it and again we don't have to go in the exact turn order of signups if anyone wants to be next. My thoughts on the strategic considerations:

-I think we should settle 1N of the eastern corn, or 2W 1S of the clam. The idea being I think the clam and corn should be in separate cities. I'd rather have the southern one by the corn first as a strategic chokepoint, the clam/sheep/fp in a slightly later city south of the capital. Major reasons being that Monuments are a chore, and that we don't need that much excess food when the happy cap is low.
-Or if we're going for a slight curveball I really like settling on the plains hill by the inland lake (NE of the sheep). Plains hills being naturally nice, and the lake tiles are very solid if we need immediate commerce. With a monument it gives excellent visibility, it's very defendable, and brings plenty of forests (7-8 I counted?) into chopping range. With the new scouting reports by Beowulf we see that the copper+corn can go with a bunch of floodplains that are further southwest. The sheep site by Huayna may be claimed by him unfortunately but I'm confident we could secure these other two, which make a nice border, and fill in the coastal cities mentioned before with more leisure.
-We probably want a couple of archers around, and a decent road network for barbs as has been mentioned. Our people's security is entrusted to our next general/advisor to take the reigns, be careful!
-Pyramids shouldn't go incredibly fast to another civ, unless there's some crazy stone combo out there. Pre-chopping I think is the way to go, we shouldn't have any trouble making workers with our food surplus. But I agree from our point of view I don't think we can really get them without Math anyway so we probably won't be looking at the mids at least until we get city #3/some defenses.
-Given the, erm, stubbornness of our great leader, it might be prudent to consider how we might begin trading with other peoples (Alphabet level trades) before someone's inclinations lead to conflict. Early trade itself could help us avoid such, and as our people currently enjoy an impressive economy we should be able to discover some technology of great value (basically, what to go for as tradebait? Self-researching Math is something of course, maybe we'll also put something into Alpha and try to work that out. Aesthetics of course being very good but a lot of beakers in our situation.)

Ragnar Danneskjold: A Tale of Freedom

Unholy Warlord

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So Happy I Could Die

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