[BTS] Ramses Immortal Fractal: Bad Lands

[Henrik75]

Play the map how you want. I had my fun trying to develop the weak land. Priest thing is interesting but I'd say Arabia is a better civ to do it with and founding an early religion using Myst starting tech.

Spoiler :

Crushing Augustus was rather easy. I want to reload and see if I can win Space with zero wars. That would be awesome.

 

[Gwaja]

Well, hope you learned a thing or two!

Always. ^_^ It is contributors like you that help keep this community going with helpful/critical advise and interesting discussions.

Play the map how you want. I had my fun trying to develop the weak land. Priest thing is interesting but I'd say Arabia is a better civ to do it with and founding an early religion using Myst starting tech.

My next planned offline game is just that. I may even try your "Pericles of Arabia" map for faster Madrassa, but Spiritual is just too good to pass up.

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

Seeing as how AI turned out to be bunch of cavemen, I'd say, indeed, staying completely free of wars and using only the land on our subcontinent to go all the way to space should be a fun little challenge of its own.

 

[Henrik75]

Replay from turn 192-249, Pacifist route with zero wars

Spoiler :

My beautiful empire in the late game, still going strong unhealthiness has been manageable thanks to keeping up good trades and relations towards everyone. I built Rock N Roll to trade for more resources.

My wonders list

Epic production city on a river, shows what you can do with "bad land" in the late game

And State Property made these 2 cute little water towns well worth it

August has been catching up and past me in GNP, but we're still competent and doing well.

There's hope!

Ending

Spoiler :

Hey it worked, although I had to defend from a random DOW and augustus starting mopping up more weak civs, we won space at 1901AD.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@TheMeInTeam aka Phil used to be very active, as you know, and I also enjoyed his YT content. He even had a posting explaining how to play this game faster. ^_^ Yeah, I also like to play at a brisk pace, sometimes to my detriment though.

Playing quickly was always to my detriment in game terms as well, though it was sometimes beneficial to whatever sanity I can be argued to possess.

Anyway, while the opening was maybe a little wonder-heavy, I'd hesitate to call positions like that "grim", especially not on immortal. Remaining city spots on starting island were not obviously contested in near-future, there's a clear annoying divide in middle of it wrt food sources, and having GLH + foreign trade I would expect equalization with immortal AIs pretty quickly on ~9 cities, even if settled late. GLH is so good at baseline and it's amazing value in positions like this. I'm less enthused by mids, but it's not really awful. I'm sure Obsolete would have built them too, and would probably have settled for the stone by now lol.

Getting AI religion would help a lot, both for relations and swapping between GP farming and OR for standing up new cities with extra discount. Making use of the temple discount doesn't hurt either, especially if you're running rep.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

TheMeInTeam, and who would that be ? Report him !

I liked a lot the shiny position Gwaja reached. 1400 AD and 2 super-wondered cities.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

TheMeInTeam, and who would that be ? Report him !

Haha, I only sort of remember how to play these days. Too many years away from the game. I remember the broad strategic approaches, but much of the minutiae is lost to me. Though perhaps if I put some time in I would be better, as thinking through different games/tradeoff situations like Dominions and EU 4 would give me an outlook I did not have in 2009-2013 or so. I venture a guess that I'd still suck at micro though, at least relative to other players on immortal+.

 

[Gwaja]

OH!... MY!.... GOD! Guess who just showed up! YOU! ^_^ @TheMeInTeam

Playing quickly was always to my detriment in game terms as well, though it was sometimes beneficial to whatever sanity I can be argued to possess.

I hold YOU... Mr. Phil ... totally.. completely... responsible for my briskness in plays I cannot seem to get away from! ^_^

Anyway, while the opening was maybe a little wonder-heavy, I'd hesitate to call positions like that "grim", especially not on immortal. Remaining city spots on starting island were not obviously contested in near-future, there's a clear annoying divide in middle of it wrt food sources, and having GLH + foreign trade I would expect equalization with immortal AIs pretty quickly on ~9 cities, even if settled late. GLH is so good at baseline and it's amazing value in positions like this. I'm less enthused by mids, but it's not really awful. I'm sure Obsolete would have built them too, and would probably have settled for the stone by now lol.

Doing that on Deity would be suicidal, which is why I like Immortal a lot more. The Great Lighthouse on certain maps, especially ones like these, is probably one of the most overpowered wonders, surpassing even the Pyramids. Speaking of which... I did indeed mimic what I thought Obsolete would have done. Gawd... what games are all you people playing nowadays? You all come back to Civ 4 now! ^_^

Getting AI religion would help a lot, both for relations and swapping between GP farming and OR for standing up new cities with extra discount. Making use of the temple discount doesn't hurt either, especially if you're running rep.

AI religion was late to arrive in my shores, but once the first one came aboard, they started spreading really quickly all on their own. Too bad that first one didn't happen sooner. Oh well, I like my Pacifism and horde of Priests.

Haha, I only sort of remember how to play these days. Too many years away from the game. I remember the broad strategic approaches, but much of the minutiae is lost to me. Though perhaps if I put some time in I would be better, as thinking through different games/tradeoff situations like Dominions and EU 4 would give me an outlook I did not have in 2009-2013 or so. I venture a guess that I'd still suck at micro though, at least relative to other players on immortal+.

Stay away from money-grabbing, money-hungry Paradox and rejoin the "light side." I am sure with a few quick games back under your feet, you would be back in shape in no time.

Your return is perfect. Now I can go back to making more maps. ^_^

 

[Gwaja]

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

I am interested in seeing how you micromanaged your cities. Looking forward to seeing it all in details. Well done! In my game, I had negative relations with only Sitting Bull, the most pathetically annoying AI in the entire game (at least Mr. Psychotic Featherhead or Shaka have certain charm to their character... this one is just totally repulsive in every way possible) and had 4 AI at Friendly, and soon to make Stalin there also, seeing as he's been waging war against Mr. Super Protective for a long time now.

I anticipate that you would do a great job at showcasing how a land that seems really mediocre at the start can be turned into something that is more than just workable.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Doing that on Deity would be suicidal, which is why I like Immortal a lot more. The Great Lighthouse on certain maps, especially ones like these, is probably one of the most overpowered wonders, surpassing even the Pyramids. Speaking of which... I did indeed mimic what I thought Obsolete would have done.

Obsolete regularly won deity games, so I'd not be so quick to conclude that wonder stacking is necessarily suicidal. Maybe not "optimal" in turn count sense, since some of the marginal wonders probably can't contribute as much value as having a city working more tiles sooner.

Spoiler :

Gawd... what games are all you people playing nowadays? You all come back to Civ 4 now! ^_^

In my case, I have 8000+ hour foray into EU 4, with a chunk of time in HOI 4 and other pdox games too. Dominions 5 is a significant component of my time over last few years too, I have a lot of minutiae from that game committed to memory similar to how I once had in Civ 4. I've won a few MP games, but the lobbies with the strongest players are tough.

Did a few misc games like Fortnite, Ultimate Chicken Horse over the years (I am pretty good at platformers, and often get kicked from UCH lobbies just for winning by huge margins haha). I recently peaked into champion in Rocket League, proving you don't need much skill to be functional at that game ^_^. Though looking back at my last YouTube video with Rocket League...I'm way better now than I was then, even though I still kind of suck. Rimworld and especially FTL are also worth mentioning as I have significant time investments in those. I'm ~80% on hard in FTL these days, best streak at 20.

Another big one for me is the roguelike Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, a browser based roguelike with high difficulty (the median person playing it never wins a game before giving up). I have a few top 20 tournament finishes in that, and have had top 50 finishes for years (out of a few thousand).

I've recently dipped toes into Battle Brothers a bit, but my understanding there is mostly still theoretical.

Finally, I did play some Civ 5 and 6, and while it's been a while I can probably still beat 6 on deity...which isn't too impressive. Immortal is harder in Civ 4.

Stay away from money-grabbing, money-hungry Paradox and rejoin the "light side."

It seems the Swedes have a firm hold, between Pdox and Dominions 5. At least I put those hours to work, and have achievements like "True Heir of Timur", "One Faith", and doing one tag world conquests. Still don't feel like doing "eat your greens", that one is going to be super annoying.

Note that I have more posts on Pdoxplaza than I have on CFC, which is kind of scary to think about too carefully.

Your return is perfect.

I wouldn't say I've "returned" per se', at least not to playing Civ 4 with any regularity. I popped in here because I got pinged in the notifications. I get pulled in a fair few directions after work on discord as it is, which is partly why I haven't gotten back into YouTube. Though it WOULD be amusing to just post a Civ 4 video and narrate a video with no explanation or context. I also have some regrets for not finishing HOMM 5, especially how much of a troll I was spamming destructive magic in most campaigns even though it's clearly not the best build in most of them.

I hold YOU... Mr. Phil ... totally.. completely... responsible for my briskness in plays I cannot seem to get away from! ^_^

I can take some pride in that! I wish it were similarly possible in newer Civ games.

 

[Gwaja]

@TheMeInTeam

Obsolete regularly won deity games, so I'd not be so quick to conclude that wonder stacking is necessarily suicidal. Maybe not "optimal" in turn count sense, since some of the marginal wonders probably can't contribute as much value as having a city working more tiles sooner.

Regularly winning Deity games with his style of play was quite charming indeed and I give him lot of credit for that.

Spoiler :

You've been quite busy I see. I still tune into old Civ 4 YouTube contents, especially yours and AZ back as far as 10 years ago. I didn't see you posting much content on YouTube anymore, and I was sad to see that, because had you continued, you could have grown your channel quite substantially. At least you were having fun, so that's good. If you do consider posting another Civ 4 YouTube content, please do NOT skip commentary. It is what gives the vids more life and uniqueness that belongs only to the host.

HoMM2 and 3 were my favorites, and FTL I enjoyed a lot myself. Very underappreciated, that one. As for Civ 5 and 6, I do NOT like 1UPT concept, even from the very start, and still do. Civ 5 had annoying mechanics with city states, and Civ 6 seems like repeat of Civ 3 where ICS is king. I also hate paying maintenance for city buildings. Enough with that garbage.

I am contemplating on trying out Crusader Kings 3, but doing so means getting sucked back into Paradox world, so I am hesitant at the moment.

Speaking of not finishing games.... **cough** how about MY maps? **cough** ^_^

I can take some pride in that! I wish it were similarly possible in newer Civ games.

As I mentioned, your posting on how to play this game faster had a big influence on me. I have you to thank for that.

 

[soundjata]

Regarding the one-city-stacks-wonders-settle-all-GP-industrious-only strategy,
It's a shame but there has not been any demonstration of it for a long while.
(except in forced OCC conditions maybe)

Last @Gwaja map (PtD#2) seemed fit for it, on paper

 

[Gwaja]

Regarding the one-city-stacks-wonders-settle-all-GP-industrious-only strategy,
It's a shame but there has not been any demonstration of it for a long while.
(except in forced OCC conditions maybe)

Last @Gwaja map (ptd#2) seemed fit for it, on paper

That last map is playing tricks! ^_^ The starting position just makes you drool, doesn't it? That is... until you play a dozen turns or so...

Obsolete was definitely unique, and even back then, he was truly the one and only player active at the time that really seemed to embrace and believe in that style of play.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I propose each map, we ping @TheMeInTeam and then in about ten maps he'll be in top condition. I can set up hotkeys for him so he gets his APM right. TMIT can rest assured, nobody ever doubted he could micro if he took the time. People just play the game different. It's his grand strategy and lucidity in the moment we admired. TMIT's game understanding has always been top tier. Macro mechanics have always beaten micro and are the most impressive.
You can play on Monarch for all I care, TMIT, but then you have to archer rush and promise you'll automove that stack.

(except in forced OCC conditions maybe)

I've done that like about 5 times. The trouble is it's extremely repetitive.
It's very safe, provided you can get the full combo : Stonehenge, ToA, Pyramids. Then it's Great Library, (insert Drama,) Civil Service.
Tech path is always the same. Research cap is always the same at about 500-600 beakers. And you get 1000 AD Rifling, and 1300 AD Infantries, and 1600 AD Conquest. (Speaking about Pangaea.)
The main goal is to 1-turn units.

That last map is playing tricks! ^_^

Might be easier played as OCC than PTD2.

Speaking of not finishing games.... **cough** how about MY maps? **cough** ^_^

Sorry, I don't do that. I'm pretty much a BC boy. I need to not screw a BOTM to complete a map.

 

[Gwaja]

I realized that I saved a few screenshots at the end before I proceeded to my next offline game. Gotta play with BAT and all its funky graphics but seems not so loved in the forums still.

Spoiler :

I beat the map at 1858 AD cultural victory. @sampsa and @Henrik75 would have finished this map much earlier, but I wanted to try something extra funky: Running 4 corporations from my capital, as well as trying to stack as many reilgions as possible in my 3 main cities for maximum culture bonus, to win culture without ever increasing the culture slider at all.

State Property is just so much easier and efficient, but I wanted to try running these 4 corporations in tandem: Sid's Sushi, Creative Constructions, Civilized Jewelers, and Aluminum Co.

Sushi gives us culture and more food so we can grow bigger and run more specialists. Creative and Civilized are extra candies on top, and Aluminum was just to be annoying to AI who have both aluminum and coal, so that they get no benefit other than measly beaker bonus as I try to run it purely foreign corporation.

This required a rather super beefy capital that can generate a lot of gold. That is because founding and spreading corporations cost money, and it also costs money to pay the AI gold per turn to obtain as many consumable resources as possible. Trading with vassals is easier since they will make all the resources available for trade, so even though I initially intended to stay peaceful, I vassaled everyone except Augustus (2 of the AI peace vassaled to me) and then I paid them handsomely for their resources, stripping them of all but 1 resource that they can realistically take advantage of, once my corporation spreads to their cities. So not efficient and complicated, but then I guess I was in one of those moods. Besides, most of us, including myself, don't try to go for cultural victory usually, so it is rather refreshing.

Civics? I stayed at Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, and Pacifism (except during war time) virtually the entire game. Oh, btw, Elephantine with National Park and 7 Forest Reserves meant more free specialists on top of Statue of Liberty. ^_^

This was too much fun, altering a bad land into a cultural paradise with mega corporations... but so so not efficient and too much needless effort.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I love a Sushi powered culture win (never actually did that). This is free form and an achievement on its own !
You need nothing but to be proud of yourself, Gwaja !

I don't know about your question. I know I don't play 100 turns in a row anymore. For other people, I won't pretend to speculate.
For the shy ones, they don't need to be so shy.

 

[Gwaja]

Sid's Sushi can be overpowering if used right. In the near future, I would like to try playing on a map with no seafood, such as Lakes or Oasis, and try for another culture win using Cereal Mills, the poor man's Sushi. That would mean no Mining, Inc, as Civilized Jewelers and/or Creative Constructions have to be run domestically.

Even more challenging may be to play a map where there is no oil or aluminum, and the only way to obtain them is via Standard Ethanol and Aluminum Co.

You should try playing a game in its entirety in one setting. ^_^

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I can set up hotkeys for him so he gets his APM right. TMIT can rest assured, nobody ever doubted he could micro if he took the time. People just play the game different.

I think that either oversells me, or undersells players who micro well. The latter is more important. I can play more carefully, think about each micromanagement choice in advance and try to optimize them for some goal in near-future, and perform better than I do when I don't do those things. But it's a shadow of what proper micromanagement looks like, where the experience of doing micro optimizations/planning in a way that gets maximum benefit from the tradeoffs in the game's systems comes to mind.

Or to put it another way: if I knew how to micro like someone like you/Rusten/Usun/etc have done, I could probably manage something like 80% of top level deity performance playing at the speeds I play at now. But that's kind of like saying "if I could already run a sub-4 minute mile, running one in 4:30 would be relatively easy". It's true, but it doesn't capture why the former is so challenging for most people to achieve, and assumes the hardest part of the mastering the task is done already.

The problem is that I don't see the game that way top deity players past/present see it, have never micro'd at that level, and thus even at my peak in Civ 4 didn't have the knowledge/experience/practices wrt micromanagement that allow the more impressive feats available in the game. I "can micro". Hell, if you compare me to someone who was/is stuck on noble-monarch, my micromanagement choices will look superior, consistently. But it's not deity player micro, and deity player micro isn't something I can just "turn on" just by using patience/will any more than a noble player can just will themselves to immortal and win. I would need to go through an extensive process to learn it, starting with identifying where I'm losing the most value somehow.

Since I lack the talent to just "see" those shortcomings as I play and correct for those mistakes, I suspect I would have no choice but to grind a starting position or five over and over again, trying to match what a top level player did, and try to extrapolate why the choices that got me there were good in that context. If I did that enough times, I could probably generalize better micro choices than I make now to games where I don't have a top player to reference. I still wouldn't be as good as them, but I'd be substantially closer/more odds on to win deity. I'm not sure I want to pay these costs for Civ 4 at this point, though. But this paragraph is an example of the insight I have learned through other games/experiences since I was a regular in Civ 4 S&T.

I have nevertheless won some games on deity in the past of course, just by playing around the AI's limitations or cooking the map with favorable settings lol.

You can play on Monarch for all I care, TMIT, but then you have to archer rush and promise you'll automove that stack.

I played a couple games in past two years, one with a friend. It seems I won't fall below emperor until I go senile or something, since I can still win that. Immortal probably too, though lower %.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I think that either oversells me, or undersells players who micro well.

My pick ! I oversold you ! Do you hate me now ?
You're quite right. I should have written something along the line of "if you took the time to learn". But this is incompatible with streaming and playing with APM.
What I mostly meant is we never held that against you.
I tend to think that some things can only be learnt in Succession Games. And I don't mean tricks, I mean mechanics (e.g. if you're going to whip and regrow in two turns, wait a turn and regrow in one). And, once you have a good hold of them, you can speed up and what you will lose will be marginal.
I agree that good micro does give insight that looms. It's probably not the right word. I mean there are ties, some implications from micro to strategy and a deeper understanding of micro can give wider insight. That said, I think this is also marginal as far as game understanding goes.
Kossin used to say that microing has a 5% impact on the game. Sure, the number is sketch and he said that from the perspective of someone who already knows what good micro is (so has a very high floor without micro).
What's the impact of macroing, though ? It's probably sketch to say 20%, right ? Maybe it's more like the remaining 95 or 80%. This is what you had.

I'm all the more sensitive to this that I am confident in my micro. I hate to brag, right ? I was taught well.
I like pipe dreams, though. I know I'm gonna die. I know I'm gonna screw up. I don't need to play on Deity to screw things up.
People are way too obsessed with that difficulty level. Zoom in, go Barracks first and play with Ice Archers (or Sushi),. Easy game.
And, you know... the "Deity Players" - I never claimed to be one -, I don't really know their micro skills but, low key, I don't think they're really good. I do think they're persistent, though, and have good strategic sense - at least better than mine. I'll give them that, I am that generous

Hell, if you compare me to someone who was/is stuck on noble-monarch, my micromanagement choices will look superior, consistently.

To me, you're the NukeTheStars of Civilization. You're certainly the one (streamer) I learnt the most from. You came just at the right time. So, yes, and up your claim some difficulty levels to Immortal.

You should try playing a game in its entirety in one setting. ^_^

Yes, I'll take that advice, at least to 1AD. That, I know I can do
On Sushi, my favourite thing is using it for border control with Friendly neighbours. Also powering a Diplo win is kinda cool.

Now I'll remove my bragging crown and just leave that here.

Spoiler :

 

[Gwaja]

@TheMeInTeam

Glad I got your attention to at least be back on this forum at least. It was a certainly a pleasant surprise!

Your influence, nevertheless, cannot be understated, on me at least personally. Since this is a game and not a class or work, learning while having fun is the most important thing. I personally hate overcomplicated things, and that surely means such things aren't welcome when I am playing a game. I can say, with confidence, that you showed that I can actually enjoy this kind of game while having fun. Mr, Phil... that is the biggest compliment I can throw at anyone. Now you owe us and all you need to do is to make an "official" return. ^_^

@BornInCantaloup

Managing the AI in diplomacy is a skill very underappreciated. I tend to think that most, even myself included, just straight out prefer Domination or Conquest. Culture even less so.

1 AD? But.... we can't even run corporations that early.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yeah, very true ! Your typical Deity Player will rely heavily on Diplo. Which is a fair part of a strong macro game
I'm not a deity player, I don't do diplo, to the point where I scorn it.

I also die by 2000 BC or just a few turns after I complete a critical wonder ! I don't mind, at that point