[BTS] Ramses Immortal Fractal: Bad Lands

[BornInCantaloup]

Liberalism

Spoiler :

I'm aware you probably don't need astronomy to get good trade routes, but it keeps the option of declaring on augustus open without losing all my trades, and if i'm going to overseas assault.

I'd like to capitulate Augustus then just go for a space win, would be fun and different and see how far we can go with this mediocre land.

I think you're right about it.

Spoiler :

Galleons are like the better form of Cavalry.
I would think you probably don't need any form of Military Tech and can just go for Speed while gunning towards Communism. State Property is a major target on continents.
It would be best if you could "just" trade for the military stuff so as to avoid detours. Maces and Trebs/Frigates can go a long way.

You're not necessarily locked in invading Augustus first.
The most troublesome thing is finding a window for whipping. I suspect you don't want to halt research entirely while waging that first war.

gl

I managed to

I thought that was a possibility. I really like those sorts of maps.
On overlap : the richer the map, the stronger it gets (also Bureau cap).

 

[Henrik75]

Turn 192/1320AD

Spoiler :

Can do a more detailed writeup tomorrow
After Libbing astro successfully I went for democracy to build statue of liberty, it's really an awesome wonder if you plan to play late game. With Industrious and Copper and Bureaucracy bonus, it wasn't too awful to build. My research is double Augustus and he's the only threat. He's skipped Education to bee line early Rifling, so I will wait until Infantry/Artillery to smash him because he won't be at infantry any time soon for sure by skipping education.
Every city has been beautifully developed - I really love these kinda games I can sit back and build! We have observatories, markets, grocers, banks, harbors, courthouses in almost every major city (the size 10+ ones) Once I hit replaceable parts & chemistry I swapped out of whipping and will remain in Caste for the rest of the game.
Plan is now to go to Communism and get state property then build more workshops, and build Kremlin and try rush buying an army for the first time ever. Should be pretty effective since we have banks markets and grocers everywhere, already at +600gpt with slider at 0%. For some reason all these idiots decided to go physics before education.
Look at the BPT! without even in golden age or running research. Having lots of fun thank you Leaving it here and heading to bed.

 

[soundjata]

Turn 192/1320AD

Spoiler :

Plan is now to go to Communism and get state property then build more workshops, and build Kremlin and try rush buying an army for the first time ever. Should be pretty effective since we have banks markets and grocers everywhere, already at +600gpt with slider at 0%.

Kremlin is good because RB cost goes from 3X to 2X !

In the context of rushbuying an army, you might want to specialize your cities a little bit:
- Hammer cities partially build stuff (turn one) and complete it with rushbuy (turn two)
- Other cities focus on wealth to sustain the rushbuy every other turn...

Also drydocks might be worth a consideration for cities that are going to focus on navy.

 

[sampsa]

I am approaching it like the old Roleplaying series that used to be hosted by @madscientist.
Settled priests are really underappreciated. I understand the talks about the most optimal ways, the ones that are claimed to be tried and tested and even "proven." For me, this usually results in same-ish type of play no matter what leader/civ I play as.

If this roleplaying means that you don't care whether a play is good or not, then feel free to ignore my responses. I don't think strong play leads to same kind of play despite leader/civ, but the difference might be smaller than you'd like. But just for example, Lain's games are not always the same and there is zero roleplaying.

On settled prophets I already voiced my opinion - they are horrible. It's not that +5+2(+3 from rep) is nothing, it's that other ways to use are much stronger. If we are being generous, settling is worth ~13 per turn. Philo bulb is ~1300. There is just no way the former can compete, since latter also unlocks a very powerful civic. After access to pacifism, I'd value first golden age at ~5000, so settling loses even worse. Settling can be competitive only if you get 1st very early and will get a few more rather quickly (for philo bulb, GA starter and possibly academy), which practically means you are playing a PHI leader.

Not like this land is screaming for quick early expansion. And no neighbors for contest of land. Stonehenge means semi-creative and easy turning of citizens into priests. Right... the first couple of specialists that I ran in ANY city were all priests. Angkor Wat means 5 priests in a city. ^_^ And I settled all of them. Pyramids a waste? Not for me. Served me too well, though not as great as the Great Lighthouse. Probably not the most optimal way, but still created a very winnable game

The sheep-spot is very good, as is the crabs spot. If you want to improve your game, settle such spots as fast as you can. There is no excuse to not have them settled by T80. Stonehenge doesn't mean semi-creative to me, it means delaying expansion. Mids is a great wonder, that's not the issue. The issue is that you sacrifice expansion. It's much better to set up at least 4 cities very quickly, as they will win you . Of course many positions are winnable, again that is not the issue. The issue is that you are making it harder.

 

[Gwaja]

Since no spoilers...

Maybe I should have made things clearer. Never did I claim that my turnsets were optimal. I had specific things I wanted to do, and I did just that, not caring what is optimal or good or better or whatever term you want to throw at. I meant to just share this "map" but ended up putting my turnset, but did not specify that I was doing some things on purpose.

I am not here to argue that settled Great Priests are good or bad. Just in THIS game, I wanted to run early priests using obelisks, settle all of them, and play around with it. Since I already had set out what I wanted to, I did go overboard, and to your eyes, maybe it looked bad, but for me, no big deal as the game came out still more than winnable and having fun out of wacky play.

When I said same things on what is considered optimal, I meant how most people treat and think of Great Priests. You yourself claim they are horrible, which most likely means that you will never grow them on purpose. That's what I meant by "same" since I never grew them on purpose either, until THIS game.

Great Lighthouse means you will almost always look to build cities on the coast. But then as @Fippy suggested for a city that claims deer and sheep together, that site can't be coastal, but I settled there anyway, intending to use it as a secondary GP farm. Was that not optimal? Maybe, maybe not. I know that the city turned out okay in my game, so no complaints there.

I know the game well enough to know that indeed I went overboard and sacrificed expansion to set my wacky goal in motion. It is just that building THREE early wonders at the beginning out of the capital from the very start, with the most expensive wonder being built without resource bonus IS indeed going way overboard. Not the most optimal way, and you claim it "crippled" my expansion, but then having those wonders in the long run made it just as easy to recover, so again, no big deal, given the intended purpose and circumstances.

 

[sampsa]

Well, hope you learned a thing or two!

Great Lighthouse means you will almost always look to build cities on the coast. But then as @Fippy suggested, the deer and the sheep site can't be coastal, but I settled there anyway, intending to use it as a secondary GP farm. Was that not optimal? Maybe, maybe not. I know that the city turned out okay in my game, so no complaints there.

I don't think GLH means all your cities should be coastal. Strong sites should be settled as fast as possible, with or without GLH.

 

[Henrik75]

Play the map how you want. I had my fun trying to develop the weak land. Priest thing is interesting but I'd say Arabia is a better civ to do it with and founding an early religion using Myst starting tech.

Spoiler :

Crushing Augustus was rather easy. I want to reload and see if I can win Space with zero wars. That would be awesome.

 

[Gwaja]

Well, hope you learned a thing or two!

Always. ^_^ It is contributors like you that help keep this community going with helpful/critical advise and interesting discussions.

Play the map how you want. I had my fun trying to develop the weak land. Priest thing is interesting but I'd say Arabia is a better civ to do it with and founding an early religion using Myst starting tech.

My next planned offline game is just that. I may even try your "Pericles of Arabia" map for faster Madrassa, but Spiritual is just too good to pass up.

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

Seeing as how AI turned out to be bunch of cavemen, I'd say, indeed, staying completely free of wars and using only the land on our subcontinent to go all the way to space should be a fun little challenge of its own.

 

[Henrik75]

Replay from turn 192-249, Pacifist route with zero wars

Spoiler :

My beautiful empire in the late game, still going strong unhealthiness has been manageable thanks to keeping up good trades and relations towards everyone. I built Rock N Roll to trade for more resources.

My wonders list

Epic production city on a river, shows what you can do with "bad land" in the late game

And State Property made these 2 cute little water towns well worth it

August has been catching up and past me in GNP, but we're still competent and doing well.

There's hope!

Ending

Spoiler :

Hey it worked, although I had to defend from a random DOW and augustus starting mopping up more weak civs, we won space at 1901AD.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@TheMeInTeam aka Phil used to be very active, as you know, and I also enjoyed his YT content. He even had a posting explaining how to play this game faster. ^_^ Yeah, I also like to play at a brisk pace, sometimes to my detriment though.

Playing quickly was always to my detriment in game terms as well, though it was sometimes beneficial to whatever sanity I can be argued to possess.

Anyway, while the opening was maybe a little wonder-heavy, I'd hesitate to call positions like that "grim", especially not on immortal. Remaining city spots on starting island were not obviously contested in near-future, there's a clear annoying divide in middle of it wrt food sources, and having GLH + foreign trade I would expect equalization with immortal AIs pretty quickly on ~9 cities, even if settled late. GLH is so good at baseline and it's amazing value in positions like this. I'm less enthused by mids, but it's not really awful. I'm sure Obsolete would have built them too, and would probably have settled for the stone by now lol.

Getting AI religion would help a lot, both for relations and swapping between GP farming and OR for standing up new cities with extra discount. Making use of the temple discount doesn't hurt either, especially if you're running rep.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

TheMeInTeam, and who would that be ? Report him !

I liked a lot the shiny position Gwaja reached. 1400 AD and 2 super-wondered cities.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

TheMeInTeam, and who would that be ? Report him !

Haha, I only sort of remember how to play these days. Too many years away from the game. I remember the broad strategic approaches, but much of the minutiae is lost to me. Though perhaps if I put some time in I would be better, as thinking through different games/tradeoff situations like Dominions and EU 4 would give me an outlook I did not have in 2009-2013 or so. I venture a guess that I'd still suck at micro though, at least relative to other players on immortal+.

 

[Gwaja]

OH!... MY!.... GOD! Guess who just showed up! YOU! ^_^ @TheMeInTeam

Playing quickly was always to my detriment in game terms as well, though it was sometimes beneficial to whatever sanity I can be argued to possess.

I hold YOU... Mr. Phil ... totally.. completely... responsible for my briskness in plays I cannot seem to get away from! ^_^

Anyway, while the opening was maybe a little wonder-heavy, I'd hesitate to call positions like that "grim", especially not on immortal. Remaining city spots on starting island were not obviously contested in near-future, there's a clear annoying divide in middle of it wrt food sources, and having GLH + foreign trade I would expect equalization with immortal AIs pretty quickly on ~9 cities, even if settled late. GLH is so good at baseline and it's amazing value in positions like this. I'm less enthused by mids, but it's not really awful. I'm sure Obsolete would have built them too, and would probably have settled for the stone by now lol.

Doing that on Deity would be suicidal, which is why I like Immortal a lot more. The Great Lighthouse on certain maps, especially ones like these, is probably one of the most overpowered wonders, surpassing even the Pyramids. Speaking of which... I did indeed mimic what I thought Obsolete would have done. Gawd... what games are all you people playing nowadays? You all come back to Civ 4 now! ^_^

Getting AI religion would help a lot, both for relations and swapping between GP farming and OR for standing up new cities with extra discount. Making use of the temple discount doesn't hurt either, especially if you're running rep.

AI religion was late to arrive in my shores, but once the first one came aboard, they started spreading really quickly all on their own. Too bad that first one didn't happen sooner. Oh well, I like my Pacifism and horde of Priests.

Haha, I only sort of remember how to play these days. Too many years away from the game. I remember the broad strategic approaches, but much of the minutiae is lost to me. Though perhaps if I put some time in I would be better, as thinking through different games/tradeoff situations like Dominions and EU 4 would give me an outlook I did not have in 2009-2013 or so. I venture a guess that I'd still suck at micro though, at least relative to other players on immortal+.

Stay away from money-grabbing, money-hungry Paradox and rejoin the "light side." I am sure with a few quick games back under your feet, you would be back in shape in no time.

Your return is perfect. Now I can go back to making more maps. ^_^

 

[Gwaja]

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

I am interested in seeing how you micromanaged your cities. Looking forward to seeing it all in details. Well done! In my game, I had negative relations with only Sitting Bull, the most pathetically annoying AI in the entire game (at least Mr. Psychotic Featherhead or Shaka have certain charm to their character... this one is just totally repulsive in every way possible) and had 4 AI at Friendly, and soon to make Stalin there also, seeing as he's been waging war against Mr. Super Protective for a long time now.

I anticipate that you would do a great job at showcasing how a land that seems really mediocre at the start can be turned into something that is more than just workable.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Doing that on Deity would be suicidal, which is why I like Immortal a lot more. The Great Lighthouse on certain maps, especially ones like these, is probably one of the most overpowered wonders, surpassing even the Pyramids. Speaking of which... I did indeed mimic what I thought Obsolete would have done.

Obsolete regularly won deity games, so I'd not be so quick to conclude that wonder stacking is necessarily suicidal. Maybe not "optimal" in turn count sense, since some of the marginal wonders probably can't contribute as much value as having a city working more tiles sooner.

Spoiler :

Gawd... what games are all you people playing nowadays? You all come back to Civ 4 now! ^_^

In my case, I have 8000+ hour foray into EU 4, with a chunk of time in HOI 4 and other pdox games too. Dominions 5 is a significant component of my time over last few years too, I have a lot of minutiae from that game committed to memory similar to how I once had in Civ 4. I've won a few MP games, but the lobbies with the strongest players are tough.

Did a few misc games like Fortnite, Ultimate Chicken Horse over the years (I am pretty good at platformers, and often get kicked from UCH lobbies just for winning by huge margins haha). I recently peaked into champion in Rocket League, proving you don't need much skill to be functional at that game ^_^. Though looking back at my last YouTube video with Rocket League...I'm way better now than I was then, even though I still kind of suck. Rimworld and especially FTL are also worth mentioning as I have significant time investments in those. I'm ~80% on hard in FTL these days, best streak at 20.

Another big one for me is the roguelike Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, a browser based roguelike with high difficulty (the median person playing it never wins a game before giving up). I have a few top 20 tournament finishes in that, and have had top 50 finishes for years (out of a few thousand).

I've recently dipped toes into Battle Brothers a bit, but my understanding there is mostly still theoretical.

Finally, I did play some Civ 5 and 6, and while it's been a while I can probably still beat 6 on deity...which isn't too impressive. Immortal is harder in Civ 4.

Stay away from money-grabbing, money-hungry Paradox and rejoin the "light side."

It seems the Swedes have a firm hold, between Pdox and Dominions 5. At least I put those hours to work, and have achievements like "True Heir of Timur", "One Faith", and doing one tag world conquests. Still don't feel like doing "eat your greens", that one is going to be super annoying.

Note that I have more posts on Pdoxplaza than I have on CFC, which is kind of scary to think about too carefully.

Your return is perfect.

I wouldn't say I've "returned" per se', at least not to playing Civ 4 with any regularity. I popped in here because I got pinged in the notifications. I get pulled in a fair few directions after work on discord as it is, which is partly why I haven't gotten back into YouTube. Though it WOULD be amusing to just post a Civ 4 video and narrate a video with no explanation or context. I also have some regrets for not finishing HOMM 5, especially how much of a troll I was spamming destructive magic in most campaigns even though it's clearly not the best build in most of them.

I hold YOU... Mr. Phil ... totally.. completely... responsible for my briskness in plays I cannot seem to get away from! ^_^

I can take some pride in that! I wish it were similarly possible in newer Civ games.

 

[Gwaja]

@TheMeInTeam

Obsolete regularly won deity games, so I'd not be so quick to conclude that wonder stacking is necessarily suicidal. Maybe not "optimal" in turn count sense, since some of the marginal wonders probably can't contribute as much value as having a city working more tiles sooner.

Regularly winning Deity games with his style of play was quite charming indeed and I give him lot of credit for that.

Spoiler :

You've been quite busy I see. I still tune into old Civ 4 YouTube contents, especially yours and AZ back as far as 10 years ago. I didn't see you posting much content on YouTube anymore, and I was sad to see that, because had you continued, you could have grown your channel quite substantially. At least you were having fun, so that's good. If you do consider posting another Civ 4 YouTube content, please do NOT skip commentary. It is what gives the vids more life and uniqueness that belongs only to the host.

HoMM2 and 3 were my favorites, and FTL I enjoyed a lot myself. Very underappreciated, that one. As for Civ 5 and 6, I do NOT like 1UPT concept, even from the very start, and still do. Civ 5 had annoying mechanics with city states, and Civ 6 seems like repeat of Civ 3 where ICS is king. I also hate paying maintenance for city buildings. Enough with that garbage.

I am contemplating on trying out Crusader Kings 3, but doing so means getting sucked back into Paradox world, so I am hesitant at the moment.

Speaking of not finishing games.... **cough** how about MY maps? **cough** ^_^

I can take some pride in that! I wish it were similarly possible in newer Civ games.

As I mentioned, your posting on how to play this game faster had a big influence on me. I have you to thank for that.

 

[soundjata]

Regarding the one-city-stacks-wonders-settle-all-GP-industrious-only strategy,
It's a shame but there has not been any demonstration of it for a long while.
(except in forced OCC conditions maybe)

Last @Gwaja map (PtD#2) seemed fit for it, on paper

 

[Gwaja]

Regarding the one-city-stacks-wonders-settle-all-GP-industrious-only strategy,
It's a shame but there has not been any demonstration of it for a long while.
(except in forced OCC conditions maybe)

Last @Gwaja map (ptd#2) seemed fit for it, on paper

That last map is playing tricks! ^_^ The starting position just makes you drool, doesn't it? That is... until you play a dozen turns or so...

Obsolete was definitely unique, and even back then, he was truly the one and only player active at the time that really seemed to embrace and believe in that style of play.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I propose each map, we ping @TheMeInTeam and then in about ten maps he'll be in top condition. I can set up hotkeys for him so he gets his APM right. TMIT can rest assured, nobody ever doubted he could micro if he took the time. People just play the game different. It's his grand strategy and lucidity in the moment we admired. TMIT's game understanding has always been top tier. Macro mechanics have always beaten micro and are the most impressive.
You can play on Monarch for all I care, TMIT, but then you have to archer rush and promise you'll automove that stack.

(except in forced OCC conditions maybe)

I've done that like about 5 times. The trouble is it's extremely repetitive.
It's very safe, provided you can get the full combo : Stonehenge, ToA, Pyramids. Then it's Great Library, (insert Drama,) Civil Service.
Tech path is always the same. Research cap is always the same at about 500-600 beakers. And you get 1000 AD Rifling, and 1300 AD Infantries, and 1600 AD Conquest. (Speaking about Pangaea.)
The main goal is to 1-turn units.

That last map is playing tricks! ^_^

Might be easier played as OCC than PTD2.

Speaking of not finishing games.... **cough** how about MY maps? **cough** ^_^

Sorry, I don't do that. I'm pretty much a BC boy. I need to not screw a BOTM to complete a map.

 

[Gwaja]

I realized that I saved a few screenshots at the end before I proceeded to my next offline game. Gotta play with BAT and all its funky graphics but seems not so loved in the forums still.

Spoiler :

I beat the map at 1858 AD cultural victory. @sampsa and @Henrik75 would have finished this map much earlier, but I wanted to try something extra funky: Running 4 corporations from my capital, as well as trying to stack as many reilgions as possible in my 3 main cities for maximum culture bonus, to win culture without ever increasing the culture slider at all.

State Property is just so much easier and efficient, but I wanted to try running these 4 corporations in tandem: Sid's Sushi, Creative Constructions, Civilized Jewelers, and Aluminum Co.

Sushi gives us culture and more food so we can grow bigger and run more specialists. Creative and Civilized are extra candies on top, and Aluminum was just to be annoying to AI who have both aluminum and coal, so that they get no benefit other than measly beaker bonus as I try to run it purely foreign corporation.

This required a rather super beefy capital that can generate a lot of gold. That is because founding and spreading corporations cost money, and it also costs money to pay the AI gold per turn to obtain as many consumable resources as possible. Trading with vassals is easier since they will make all the resources available for trade, so even though I initially intended to stay peaceful, I vassaled everyone except Augustus (2 of the AI peace vassaled to me) and then I paid them handsomely for their resources, stripping them of all but 1 resource that they can realistically take advantage of, once my corporation spreads to their cities. So not efficient and complicated, but then I guess I was in one of those moods. Besides, most of us, including myself, don't try to go for cultural victory usually, so it is rather refreshing.

Civics? I stayed at Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, and Pacifism (except during war time) virtually the entire game. Oh, btw, Elephantine with National Park and 7 Forest Reserves meant more free specialists on top of Statue of Liberty. ^_^

This was too much fun, altering a bad land into a cultural paradise with mega corporations... but so so not efficient and too much needless effort.