1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

RAND 1.76 Balancing and Suggestions

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Afforess, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. flitz

    flitz Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    245
    btw, what about the idea with the land blockades ?
     
  2. steevo

    steevo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    Afforess,
    I've just come back to this mod after a long time away from it, it's always been my favorite civ4 mod and I'm really pumped to see that further development is back on. In the period of time between when I last played A New Dawn, several years and two broken PCs have gone by. At the time, my computer, a 2gb laptop operating on Vista with an underpowered processor, mitigated the awesome experience, but it still was my favorite from the first time I played it. One PC ago I checked up on this forum out of curiousity as to the mod's current status because I had at the time a slightly more powerful PC. However, that PC broke before I ever got the chance to install Civ4 on it, and it fell from my mind for a long time. Now, with a 64-bit 4gb machine with Windows 7, I have a decent- well, even better-than-decent PC for gaming. What puts it up into an entirely higher level is the fact that while owning sh*tty computers for such a long time I have a pre-existing education on every performane boosting technique and tweak possible- then a neccesity, now a luxury. I decided just last week to install civ4 then AND and while searching for the mod came across the news that you'd returned to work on the mod and had produced a new version- it totally made my day. As expected it runs immensely faster with far shorter turn times. Seriously, thank you for creating this, its a masterpiece.

    I'm uncertain as to the what version I was running way back when, but I had a few questions about issues which were raised on the forum as being potential drains on performance. I can't escape my previous mentality of trying as hard as possible to reduce as many memory-instense features as possible in order to be able to play on as big a map as possible without running into performance problems, and, while I haven't yet gotten to a point in my current marathon-length game at which the development of all civs stretches across the majority of land on earth, I'm well aware that there may be some decrese in performance as the game progresses. Mostly I'm curious about the degree to which various features impact performance as of the current version, if at all.

    1. Diety difficulty level?
    I enjoy a challenge from the AI, but the earliest part of the game I like the difficulty to be toned down some, so I use increasing/flexible difficulty. However, during the last time I had A New Dawn, I distinctly remember reading a discussion thread in which it was posited that diety level difficulty and the bonuses it provides to the AI caused them to massproduce military units on such a scale that it eventually dragged the game's speed to a crawl. I don't recall if there was an authoritatize response confirming this or not, and I can always hit ctrl-alt-o and alter the difficulty down to immortal manually, but it will return to its previous position after a certain amount of time, and if it's a complete non-issue then I'll feel kind of dumb doing that all game long. Is it something to be worried about in this version?

    2. Revolutions?
    Before I found AND for a while I played a mod called WolfRevolutions- it was a combination of Wolfshanze and RevolutionsDCM and I noticed that the mod with revolutions turned off made a significant difference on large maps, which led me to believe that revolutions required intense levels of resources in order to operate at all. However, I later saw while checking out other mods online that the individual mods of wolfshanze and revolutionsdcm had each been updated by their authors multiple times to higher versions since wolfrevolutions was uploaded, while the combination mod itself had last been updated quite some time beforehand- which made me believe that neither was as severely detrimental and if there was a problem it was already repaired to some degree if not fixed outright. Does turning on RevDCM impact performance significantly.

    3. Espionage and advanced espionage?
    What About these two? Does the basic espionage system make much of a performance difference? Does the advanced espionage system add a performance drain beyond the basic?

    4. Raging Barbarians and AI early development?
    Not dealing with performance this time, at one point I remember reading something written by someone on the forum- I know that's a vague start but this was quite some time ago- saying that using the version at the time, the raging barbarian option afflicted every AI player so profoundly that they essentially failed to get off the ground at all, and that if barbarian forces didn't destroy them frequent persistent conflict around their newlyfound capitals and the destruction entailed prevented them from developing writing until much later than expected- and that civilzations emerging out of barbarian cities were also being quickly subjected to more barbarian forces than they could defend againt. Personally I tend to leave that option turned off, because the incentive it gives me to build the great wall is so much higher, and once the great wall is built, it doesn't matter how many barbarians there are, you're completely safe from them- so why put it on in the first place? Its more challenging to have raging barbarians off and deliberately allow another civ to build the great wall for themselves while you deal with them in standard strength, they still keep you on your toes even if the prospect of a large invasion is no longer realistic. Besides all that, while it can be a valuable advantage in the game, against historical reality its way overpowered in civ4. The large, imposing sections of the great wall were relatively recent (16th century if I'm not mistaken), prior to which it was similar to the sorts of fortifications its contemporary polity, the roman empire established along many of its frontiers and had many long stretches completely unattended by defenses of any sort. The wall was a boundary line more than anything. The Chinese empire was well aware that it was the men of the imperial army stationed along the north that provided territorial security, not bricks and stone. To simulate the experience of the imperial government, realistically you'd have to play without building the great wall in the first place. Besides, no one ever talks about how the great wall hindered the mongols while they were conquering China. Nor did the Manchu seem to break a sweath while they were conquering China a while later, and their invasion had enough energy after crossing into China from the north that they decided to undertake the huge task of forcing all adult males in the entire middle kingdom on pain of death to adopt a noticable manchu cultural norm in their personal appearance, a custom which was successfully disseminated across the entirety of China within a generation but is generally thought by westerners to be a quintessentially chinese cultural tradition, the Que.
    But I'm going off on a tangent. If turned on, will ai civs be significantly stunted in their development in general?

    If you could give me a response on these I'd really appreciate it, I've no idea how many versions went by between the last time I had AND installed and now.








    Finally, I had a thought, when I read what you said about getting the timer to display a year somewhat reflective of the state of technology at any given point in the game. I have no idea even on a conceptual level how to change anything in the year display on the interface. While anything in the statistics window would remain unchanged by this, the anachronistic year numbering would only be apparent to the player when he/she is examining the stats closely, while the date in the interface which the player is constantly exposed to would no longer display numbers which seem



    What started me thinking about this was that in a post towards the end of this thread, someone mentioned that they blocked the date out entirely rather than be thrown off by the anachronistic display. If there's nothing that can be accomplished by altering the year/date display, then its best it be removed from the UI and replaced by a new year-date display- same place over top of the first if helps to recycle textures. What I'm speaking of would not change the date the way the game understands it, but it would fix the problem of the player being forced to look at the inaccurate and anachronistic date all the time- I mean its unavoidable and anytime you play s game of any genre, witnessing any distortion other than intended- anything that could be an indisputable reminder that what you're interacting with is, in fact, a game, a subtle yet enjoyable line of authenticity snaps in half. The only way in which an error or an error message is significantly different is that they can have a quality of being abrupt or startling.


    First of all, I confess that I've never editing any files for civ4 and am unfamiliar with any modding tools for civilization 4-
    However I am very familiar with modding a number of other games including any paradox title, the 3 major Bethesda Softworks titles (fallout 3, fallout new vegas, and the elder scrolls oblivion), and most recently I learned how to mod "the guild 2", although I realize that Civ4 is unique- however, so long as the following conditions are possible for whatever modtools or text editor you use, what's described in the following passage will allow for the date or year to be determined by calculating the average level of technological advancement and applying it to a scale, the constraints of which you yourself will have determined.

    since numerous mods exist which gather game data and present them in graphs, charts, and statistics sheets different from statistical displays built into the main game, what I've written below this is based upon what I am familiar with in Civ4 mods and I've tried my hardest to avoid speculating on what is possible when it comes to modding civ4 and what is not, where uncertain I've attempted to approach it



    If manipulating the year display isn't yielding the desired results, why not just put it aside completely? No need to treat it like a constant, after all Einstein proved that time is relative, so for a more realistic feel all the year display needs to do is show what year the present state of technological advancement among all the civs says it should be. If the idea of establishing an automated process of gathering certain in-game data then running it through a few basic mathematical equations EVERY turn to find out what year it is doesn't appeal to you then I confess it doesn't appeal to me either. However,

    There are some specific numbers you'll need to gather in order to work out a fairly simple mathematical process which can be automated in-game is the number of civilizations (and a trigger to change it if a civ dies or emerges out of barbarian lands) in order to determine an average amonst them all- as long as tech diffusion is turned on, there shouldn't be any radical outliers in either direction (although I'm not really sure how much impact tech diffusion has, but even if it were turned off it probably wouldn't make much difference unless the difference in technological advances between one or more civs and the rest is absolutely vast


    and some sort of measure of technological progress... and that already exists in the form of research points! Each technology a civ has discovered has a cost in research points.

    Here's where I'm uncertain of capability of civ4 modding but the function that needs to be carried out is purely analytical, without any alteration to the game itself, so here's what needs to be accomplished:

    the collection of current successfully completed technologies civ-by-civ
    I'm assuming that there are specific id's for each technology, so I'm assuming that's the easiest way to report which technologies are known to a civ.
    First, a list needs to be created ordering in order of id every tech and assigning to it the number of research points it costs
    then, analytic tool records the rpcost assigned to each id
    the rpcost of all techs known by a civ are summed

    the processes performed for every single civ, and the sum of all civs' rpsum is divided by the number of civs

    this variable is a measure of how advanced all civs are on average, and it will directly determine the present year
    I'll refer to it as RPaverage






    The paragraph immediately below this one assumes that you already have access to a list of specific years corresponding to each turn# from the first turn#
    It doesn't have to be perfect, just believable enough to last 20 turns, displaying 20 years in the order they're supposed to follow according their individual corresponding to turn# without the

    Now, the easiest way to do this, since its an endeavor to make the current year no longer an independent value, but dependent upon the size of RPaverage, is to establish a handful of predetermined known technologies and assign them specific dates. You may want to include a beginning year & end year among others.
    It doesn't matter what years you decide to pick although they should be scattered some some, at least one per game era. As for the actual number of specific years, you can start by picking 5, although if you later find this number to be unsuitable anything higher is no problem, but there may be a risk of decreased accuracy if you go lower, however I am uncertain.

    To give slightly more detailed example, let's take one particular year- 1900
    just use your best judgment both of the game and of history- but mostly the game. Pick and choose to separate techs which you feel should have been discovered by the average, mid-power\mid-size civilization, by the time this year arrives. Now, sum the rpcost of every discovered technology all the way back to the start of technology.
    Now you have the two numbers you'll need in order to represent this particular static marker: the year, 1900, and the RPsum of all techs you've identified as discovered by on on the verge of discovery by the average civilization. It's not precise but doesn't need to be, remember, because time is no longer independent.

    Before anything else, replace 1900 with the turn number which corresponds to that year.
    Now you have the two numbers turn# and RPsum

    collect a set for each marker as you've decidedto determine it.


    Now, the next stage is - this is going to sound stupid- something is without a doubt possible but which I am utterly unable to describe.
    The two numbers for each marker position, the turn# abd the RPsum- will serve as grid coordinates. You know, (X,Y)
    What needs to be done is that a linear equation needs to be created which creates a line passing through each point.
    I have no idea what it will look like, might be relatively straight, unfortunately no idea at all. However, what I do know is that whatever shape the line takes will be a visual reflection of the actual increase in Rpcost of more and more advanced technology, although that's simply an observation which has no impact upon the desired


    I know this can be done, but I suffer from a learning disorder which impairs severely all activity both cognition and memory which relies primarily on the areas of the brain associated with non-verbal mental processes so while everyone else in 9th grade math had no problem whatsoever with precisely this I was way in the back utterly unable to understand anything that was going on, constantly awash of frustration and resignation, occasionally managing to learn one thing and being capable of solving equations in that particular way, the disorder extends to my own ability regarding non-verbal memory as well, which is abysmally poor and no matter what it tended to slip away with incredible rapidity. Personal life perspective, not all bad, in a way more of a blessing than a curse, the part of my brain compensates for the weakness a great deal and that same year I wrote a 280 page science fiction novel and scored a perfect 5 on the advanced placement United States History test, earning 6 full credit hours, the equivalent of two semester-length university courses. I was 14 years old and received my high school diploma at age 16, began college shortly after turning 17, and any task requiring non-verbal brain function with a significant verbal component is not so hard...
    Point is I'm not just jerking you around telling you to figure this one out, I know this can be done and I tried to do it myself but the material gave me a headache its really beyond my ability to comprehend with anything short of the most extreme mental effort, and while there's a chance that an extensive struggle with that material might yield the right answer it would take a very long time and quite frankly I don't trust myself with whatever answer I come out of it with. Ugh.

    A graphing calculator may prove helpful, if you don't have one Google it you'll find a bunch of browser-based programs capable of the exact same thing. If you can't manage it either, talk to someone who's good at math, they'll be able to figure it out for you or alternately use the internet to educate/reeducate yourself.

    The objective of that particular task is to determine a linear equation, the line graphed would pass through each and every marker.
    The line will
    It serves the purpose of being able to identify turn# based upon the input of RPaverage, a variable created by drawing data from upon the level of advancement of all civs.
    Then, what needs to be reported on the display is the year corresponding to that particular turn#

    To summarize, in full functionality the following process would be carried out automatically

    Gather data about all techs known by each and every civ, translate into RPvalue, combine into Rpsum- then divide by total number of active civs to obtain RPaverage, use Rpaverage to determine turn number, translate into its corresponding year




    It might not be good for the entire process to fire each and every turn, in fact it may cause slowdown while executing its intended task all the time.. I'm completely unsure and have no idea. But it seems like the sort of thing that would become a problem. Another idea connected to the main one expressed above is to set the trigger to fire between a series of intervals during which it would be left idle. Thus the year would be set in accordance with human scientific achievement once every 10 turns or once every 20 turns. Whatever turn#/year is put up by the process being activated, the next 19 would be the years that would follow consecutively in accordance with the order of the list if that was simply the present year and then those following following turn by turn, the manner being identical to the transition between turns of the unmodified year/date display until the next time a realistic year was put forth again. There might be some overlap with occasion years being repeated twice if the average level of civ technology didn't advance significantly, but it'd only be in display and frankly it'd be easier to miss than to catch. If this 20-turn system were to become a reality, it'd have the visual effect of normal turn progression with automatic self-correcting chronology.

    I think that this is a really good idea, a unique way of sidestepping a persistent problem which has thus far proven itself unsolvable. If any part of this lengthy suggestion should be deemed applicable to further development and enhancement of A New Dawn it would be inspire in me a sense of personal pride to have contributed in a small way to a truly great project. If no part of it is found to be applicable to the mod's future, it's whatever. In spite of its intense detail, I'm keenly aware of the generally theoretical nature this suggestion and frankly a great project is worth the intellectual effort involved in submitting well-thought-out proposals whether they're acted upon or not. In the forum-based conversation of any given mod for any given game designed in such a way as to permit a great deal of user modability, the vast majority of pages in a discussion threads addressing something like balance would consist of repetitive terse statements devoid of punctuation generally all saying the same thing, “i didnt read nothing before installing this mod and it dont work how come” . Instead, all 19 pages of this thread are filled with intelligent exchange of ideas and solutions technical and creative, and that leads me to believe I'm not alone in my great project contribution approach.
     
  3. uat2d

    uat2d ಠ_ಠ

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2007
    Messages:
    2,727
    Location:
    Final Frontier Listening: House
    Is there a TL;DR version?
     
  4. tranx

    tranx Civilized

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    244
    Location:
    Qingdao (China)
    Too many late future wonders give the same type of reward (+10% :science: +10% :hammers: +10% :gold:), hampering the fun of building them.

    What about letting the Universal Translator give +10 diplo points with all leaders, allowing the player to start on good relations again!
     
  5. uat2d

    uat2d ಠ_ಠ

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2007
    Messages:
    2,727
    Location:
    Final Frontier Listening: House
    Instant Diplo victory much?
     
  6. tranx

    tranx Civilized

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    244
    Location:
    Qingdao (China)
    It depends. Right now everybody hate my guts because of my previous all-out nuclear warfare madness. I doubt 10 more diplo points would even secure me a seat at the UN cafeteria :D
     
  7. uat2d

    uat2d ಠ_ಠ

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2007
    Messages:
    2,727
    Location:
    Final Frontier Listening: House
    "Guys, sorry for nuking you all to hell. Considering that now we have an Universal Translator, would you willingly vote for me to win the game?"
     
  8. tranx

    tranx Civilized

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    244
    Location:
    Qingdao (China)
    Yep, it was all a big misunderstanding ! Now that we have a Universal Translator, it most certainly won't happen again.
     
  9. Stingarov

    Stingarov Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Messages:
    12
    I searched the thread for credit unions and found nada. In light of current economic trials and tribulations, and the surging credit union membership, I think it's an excellent opportunity to add an EITHER Credit Union OR Bank & E-Bank option, one emphasizing happiness and perhaps stabilization of the city and the other financial & anger.

    Love beta 5 by the way.
     
  10. Camarada78

    Camarada78 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Messages:
    76
    SUGGESTION:

    - The Great Wall Wonder should have it cost added at least 30%. Most games it is done like 1500-500BC (on Marathon). Between its various versions, the Great Wall went from 200BC to 1500AC...
     

Share This Page