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RAND 1.76 Balancing and Suggestions

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Afforess, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. Cykur

    Cykur Chieftain

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    I agree Despotism needs some kind of tweak. The enemy culture % penalty is just BRUTAL, it pretty much decimates a conquered city. Despotism already doesn't have as many tools as Monarchy to manage happyness. Despotic govts can run bigger armies for cheaper, so I have found it useful one time when I was on defense, but if you go on offense, you pretty much have to switch to monarchy if you plan to capture anything, which kind of beats the purpose of having a big army. The current game pretty much forces you to adopt Monarchy, and Despotic govt should have some viable role. I think Despotism could lose the +1 happyness, but also lose the negative culture happyness penalty.


    Also, on a side note, I have been noticing this for a while. Where did all the copper go? I have noticed there is almost no copper in my AND games and it has been like this for quite a while. Anyone else notice this?
     
  2. os79

    os79 Chieftain

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    Map size?

    Because if you play with too small a map, you run a risk of having a resource you need being far away from you. I play with Huge to Giant, and I get strategic resource just fine.
     
  3. Cykur

    Cykur Chieftain

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    I don't mind some resource variation game to game, I am just observing consistently little copper in the entire world, like a few on an entire map. This changed at some point, because it used to be easier to find.

    I normally play on Large and Huge. I looked at the CIV4BonusInfos.xml and I see a value called "iUnique" that is set to approx 7 on critical resources like Iron and Oil (which are plentiful). It is set to 0 for Copper and Obsidian (which I never see anymore), and also has a setting forbidding it from being on flat land. As an experiment I'm raising that "iUnique" value to 1, still very low compared to many resources, and I'm allowing it on flat land for a trial game.

    EDIT. iUnique doesn't do what I thought it did, scratch that! Everything looks pretty good in CIV4BonusInfos.xml, based on what I see there should be a consistently higher amount of certain resources?

    I wonder if the CIV4BonusInfos.xml file in ...\Rise of Mankind\Assets\XML\Terrain is being overwritten by some other file? Time to dig.


    2nd Edit.

    Ok, I figured out the problem. I play with large to huge maps, but I also play with large numbers of AI's. A whole lot of em. I think however the game prioritizes starting locations, those resources are winning out against some of the ones that shouldn't be so scarce. I think I started seeing this problem when I started playing on a more powerful computer that could run very high numbers of players, because it didn't happen in the old days when I only ran 15-20 players. Just a guess.
     
  4. os79

    os79 Chieftain

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    Why not just return to default 11 for Huge or 9 for Large and be sure to turn on BarbarianCiv option in Custom Game. You will have many, many civs later on in the game. Plus your strategic resources will be available to you.
    Your choice :shrug:.
     
  5. Cykur

    Cykur Chieftain

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    That is a good idea, I'll keep that in mind, but I often play world maps with randomized resources and tons of preset civs.

    I might test a few tiny xml tweaks. =)

    I really don't mind some resource scarcity, but there was no copper and 1 obsidian in Europe + Asia last game I played. Oddly enough, there was plenty of Iron and I can't quite see why from the BonusInfos xml.
     
  6. Cykur

    Cykur Chieftain

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    Warriors and Javeliners need their upgrade flexibility based on what techs / strategic resources are available, and game speed. Based on needs and strategic resources, one game may find them changing into spearmen, and another game may find them going archer out of necessity. I've certainly had both situations, so I didn't see a problem with the way things were.

    Heavy Infantry ---> Cuirassier, not Mailed Knight
    Mailed Knights are heavies on horses, so it kind of made sense. Not sure why they would go Cuirassier.

    Horse Archer and War Elephant ---> Mailed Knight, not Cuirassier
    I don't think War Elephants should have the chance to upgrade to horse units so soon. Style wise, Horse Archers and War Elephants are not on the "Mailed Knight" path, so it kind of makes sense they are niche units that become antiquated until you eventually turn them into gunpowder era unit.


    The one that makes sense is:
    Horseman ---> Light Cavalry, not Mounted Infantry

    I can see Horsemen upgrading either way, but otherwise don't really see a problem here. Horse units kind of specialize as time goes on -- you get lancer type horse units, infantry that rode into battle (Mounted Infantry and Mailed Knights), and horse archers which eschewed heavy armor for mobility.

    It isn't the end of the world, but I figured I'd give some feedback.
     
  7. os79

    os79 Chieftain

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    Not going to change.
    It is not about unit names. It is about strength for each period in the game.
    But still feel free to give feedback because I'm not only one who will make a next version potentially. Afforess might or might not agree with you versus me and make his changes accordingly and that will always take priority over any changes I make to SVN, seeing he is a chief modder of RAND.
     
  8. Cykur

    Cykur Chieftain

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    I have no clue what that has to do with your changes. The Warrior / Javelineer changes are just about which way your society is going.

    I was talking about unit purpose and role, not unit name.

    Why would Heavy Infantry upgrade to Cuirassiers. You must have meant Heavy Cavalry?

    There are still reasons to make Horse Archers and War Elephants even when you have Mailed Knights, I would still want the option to make them. That is why when they upgrade they go to a gunpowder tier unit, because they still aren't obsolete even with Mailed Knights.

    Anyhow, it is understandable; everyone has their own interpretation.
     
  9. os79

    os79 Chieftain

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    Yeah, I meant Heavy Cavalry (oops).
     
  10. hihi

    hihi Chieftain

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    in 1.76 version

    is there world map scenario?

    not random place.

    real world map is there?
     
  11. Cykur

    Cykur Chieftain

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    I've been using Kordanor's Earth Map
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=410475

    You need the AND mega civ pack for it to work, it has 50 civs. It also puts a lot of strain on slower computers, so you might not be able to use it.

    I had to do a little editing and delete the Civic information from the civilizations in the map file for it to work. I think there are some ROM Giant Earth Maps that would work (Genghis Khai's GEM maps), but I haven't tried one recently.
     
  12. flitz

    flitz Chieftain

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    I was going to suggest blockable trade routes on land. Maybe like you naval units can do it for the sea tiles around a city.
    I realized that you can use fixed borders to claim the territory around a city. This should at least block the non-air trade routes, right ? Or is there no difference being made which kind of trade route it is ?

    Another thing (already brought up, I don't remember if it was in this mod): rebalancing the tech tree to make the technology timeline match the current game-date again.
    On epic speed you can get to the industrial age around 300 and then the pace starts to crawl for you to reach modern age like a thousand years later.
    It just sometimes kills some of the immersion :)
     
  13. charlesb96

    charlesb96 Chieftain

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    You are better off doing the time line balancing yourself to adjust to your style of play. I play with the limited religion off and I get at least half of the religions and all the money from the holy wonder. All that money lets me run at 100% and get the techs faster, I can reach gunpowder by 700ad and flight by 1200. With limited religion on, I get ONE religion and not much money so my tech research goes down. I have adjusted my game speed to reflect this and am getting the techs within about 100-200 years of the right time.
    Set up an Excel program to do the months, years and turns and you can adjust till you think it is correct. You can even adjust during a game and the year will change to what the new rate you put in says it should be

    let me know if you need help setting up that excel program, how many turns you want, start date, end date and such..
     
  14. flitz

    flitz Chieftain

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    Thanks. But how fast does the AI research in your games ?
    For me, if I would schedule my research like you said, the AI would still discover and trade techs so that the timeline would be somewhat messed up.

    I guess one thing one could do to balance the tech tree would be to see which historical timespan each tech belongs to and then add up the needed research points for every particular timespan.
    Then you would need to compare that to
    1. simulated world speed, which drops in some logarithmic (?) fashion thoughout the game
    2. the approximated research points that nations have at hand on average during the given time period.
    That was my basic idea on how this rebalancing could be done. It feels a little like techs were more added out of additional flavor and complexitiy without the general progress of a game in mind.
     
  15. os79

    os79 Chieftain

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    Not going to happen.

    #1 Afforess, few others, and I tried to mod game speeds. We failed but succeed in rough way in Marathon speed.

    #2 This mod is not for Epic or faster, calendar speaking.

    #3 Afforess said to deal with it or mod it yourself.

    So if you want to balance game speed, do it yourself because it won't happen in any future version. We have other concerns, more concrete than just being immersed (that is silly here since we are playing in alternate worlds anyway, IMO).
     
  16. DrewBledsoe

    DrewBledsoe Veteran QB

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    Still playing last non-beta (1.75 is it?) and some observations about latish game (never normally get that far)..not sure if these still apply to the Beta but anyways.....

    On a huge continents map, 3 continents,Emperor, Marathon, Alex of Greece:- I own the majority of mine, have a decent economy. Go caravelling and meet the rest of the world. A psychotic Cyrus has almost all his, massive amount of land, far more cities than me, more power, better tech lvl :eek:

    But I start to catch up, and eventually leave the rest of the world standing.

    Reasons- The point of the post.

    1) Land improvement is extremely bad. Far, far too many cottaged/windmilled hills, and nowhere near enough mining. (This is not just typical of Cyrus either). This is okish in the eras up to industrial, but then his cities are basically growing fast with nowhere near enough production. This leads to:-

    2)Massive unhappiness and unhealthiness, basically outeching his production. Reaching Civics like Federal (giving one :mad: per military unit in a city), switching and having cities drop like stones. (I built the UN, he basically voted himself in, with the aid of his vassals:- next election, his population had dropped so dramatically, that his votes went down by around 200-250, and I got voted in). This again in turn leading to:-

    3) Civic change after Civic change, to try to find something that worked. He must have spent around half of 200 turns in Anarchy. This absolutely killed the game off, as I got steadily stronger and more advanced, and his cities crashed from size 25 (Persepolis) to 15!(ouch), while not advancing at all.

    So anyways, not sure how much still applies to 1.76, but there it is. It was a great shame, as it killed the game as a challenge, but at least I had a mini modern era war or two :)
     
  17. flitz

    flitz Chieftain

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    Actually, I wouldn't even edit the game speed but rather make research projects more or less expensive to fit the timeline better. This gives a finer granulary of control.

    And regarding your last paragraph: I don't hink it's silly. Because Civ is of course about some alternate history in an alternate world (different world actually), but there are still some ties which relate to RL history which makes this game interesting too.
    This is of course also a matter of personal preference but I for my part was always amazed that a game of Civ goes by so fluidly and still was able to keep the balance with the timeline.
    I will look into it, see if I can find some measurements to resonably adjust things to make them fit again.

    Regarding #2: is this issue not present for marathon game speed ? I never played a full game above epic speed.
     
  18. os79

    os79 Chieftain

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    From what my auto-savegame file names, apparently not.
    I turn off the game date from my screen because as I said above the dates are pure silliness.
    So, up to you if you want to mod it yourself. But don't expect that to go into a future version.
    Of course, Afforess can surprise us and decide to take your suggestions and mod them in. Then great for you and of no matter to me :).
     
  19. uat2d

    uat2d ಠ_ಠ

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    Question: While in Anarchy, are we meant to continue to pay unit maintenance?
     
  20. flitz

    flitz Chieftain

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    Well, if I do it the way I suggested - by modding research prices - it probably would have some deeper impact to the game. Like the longlivityof certain units or civics for example.
    If that would be good or bad is hard to say ;)
     

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