Random SG 01 - The Randomness Begins

[Teproc]

Optional actually did mention the pantheon thing, sorry.

If we go with Spain, I'd move the Warrior on the NE hill and look to settle on the NW forest probably, just to get away from the desert, and on the assumption that the warrior reveals some interesting stuff up north.

Edit : Actually we lose the Wheat as a starting tile if we do that, so maybe not. Depends on what the warrior reveals then.

 

[Polus]

Yeah it's a jungle start, but I really like the civ... though what's the map type again ? If it's the modified Highlands one, we won't be getting our luxuries...

I guess I'll vote Spain on the assumption that this is a map where the Indonesia UA is useless. If not, I'd prefer Indonesia.

The map type is random, so that's part of the fun. Thinking about it, I think Indonesia absolutely fits the "random" theme given how its UU works .

For the sake of randomness, I'm officially changing my vote to Indonesia

 

[Teproc]

Hmmmm. Yeah, the Indonesia starts just seems like more fun to me, I'm voting for that then, probably settling on the Gems west ?

 

[Gurra09]

Edit: Oops, missed there was a second page. Never mind.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Good suggestion Optional. We will accept lurker votes between now and Sunday 00:01 GMT

Building on Optional's vote counting:

Spain: 3
Indonesia:
Aztecs: 2

Welcome back and welcome aboard Gurra

I will PM Eric since he hasn't appeared here in a while.

 

[Optional]

In previous SG's always these rules were used:

*No worker stealing (declaring war on a CS for the sole reason to grab a worker);
*No settling on resources - unless it's a one-tile island or so;
*No selling resources and declaring war straight after - we are to respect the duration of trade deals where we are exporting something on a per-turn basis.

The problem with settling on a lux is that it gives you the benefit of the lux while you haven't invested the work - normally you need to build a worker and invest several worker turns - that's the cost of operating a gem mine. It's not logical that you would have the same benefit by building a settlement on the same spot.
The game allows you to do it, previous civ games as well, competitions allow it, but it's still an exploit that harms the game, as some ways to gain workers that are part of the design of the game you're more likely to ignore now. For example you might be less interested in trying to grab a worker from barbs, while that's actually a more fun way of playing.

Probably when Sir Bugsy suggested we use standard SG rules he wasn't aware which rules actually have been used in the previous SG's, so we need a word on this.
If people find the rules too strict - I guess some will - we could also consider doing something like dropping a worker at the start position. We are boss in our own SG, we can design our own rules.

 

[Polus]

In previous SG's always these rules were used:

*No settling on resources - unless it's a one-tile island or so;

The problem with settling on a lux is that it gives you the benefit of the lux while you haven't invested the work - normally you need to build a worker and invest several worker turns - that's the cost of operating a gem mine. It's not logical that you would have the same benefit by building a settlement on the same spot.
The game allows you to do it, previous civ games as well, competitions allow it, but it's still an exploit that harms the game, as some ways to gain workers that are part of the design of the game you're more likely to ignore now. For example you might be less interested in trying to grab a worker from barbs, while that's actually a more fun way of playing.

You bring up a valid point, but I would allow the settling on resources; the other two feel exploitative to me, like an oversight by the developers. I think settling on resources has enough trade-off to exculpate the practice. To me, it's no more of an exploit than, say, spamming internal food trade routes or in previous iterations of Civ 5 massing RA's.

Just my two cents, I'm certainly open to not settling on resources, I would just posit that it's not inherently an exploit.

 

[Teproc]

No worker steal I definitely agree with, I also agree with not exploiting DoW, but I disagree that settling on ressources is an exploit, or that we shouldn't do it anyway. It's a trade-off, because you do give up a better tile in the long run, in exchange for an early advantage.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I always play honorably and use Sirian and Sullla's rules. If settling on a resource is considered an exploit, then I vote let's not do it. I agree with the randomness of the Indonesian UU. I change my preference. Can someone add up where we stand on the voting?

 

[Optional]

Err, it now looks like:

Spain 1 vote (Gurra)
Aztecs 1 vote (Optional)
Indonesia 3 votes (Bugsy, Polus & Teproc)

Some of us have been wavering, though. Knowing more about which map script has been used could still make people change their mind again.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I just set everything to random except for map size and speed (set to standard) and difficulty level set to 7) then let 'er rip. Therefore the script is whatever BNW does.

 

[EricTheGreat12]

Err, it now looks like:

Spain 1 vote (Gurra)
Aztecs 1 vote (Optional)
Indonesia 3 votes (Bugsy, Polus & Teproc)

Some of us have been wavering, though. Knowing more about which map script has been used could still make people change their mind again.

Add 1 more for Spain

Ps: Sorry if I'm late guys. Had to do a lot of Christmas shopping recently

 

[EricTheGreat12]

Indonesia is good too; the only problem though is that even if we have 2 gem resources, we still have to cut through all those trees. +Depending on the way we go with technology we might get mines before vineyards too....

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Once we decide on which start we are going with, we will need to decide the build and tech order.

 

[EricTheGreat12]

Do we have final voting now ? Or is anyone changing their minds on which one to pick?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Looks like we're going to be Indonesia.

My standard start build is Scout - Monument - Worker. Does anyone do anything different?

As for techs, we might want to think about our first two in case the first player gets tech out of a goody hut. One of my early priorities is archery so I can get an archer after the worker build. Given the gems I suppose we ought to make mining an early priority as well. Thoughts?

 

[Optional]

I usually start with Pottery for a pantheon. Even when missing a religion a pantheon can give a decent return as long as it lasts.

I hope the start turns out to be playable, by the way. In Von Münchhausen IV we also got smacked in the jungle, played some 200 turns, but never recovered. If we see here that secondary town locations will also mean a battle against the jungle it could not be worth trying.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

We also need to think about our social policy path. With vanilla I usually went with Liberty for the free worker, settler, and eventually the free GP. The settler comes a little later but it is still powerful.

With BNW Honor has something going for it, namely the Statue of Zeus.

I do like Tradition's +3 culture and four free monuments. If we go that direction, then we change the build order to skip the monument.

My idea for dealing with jungle just means more workers. Now at level 7, that may set you back a bit.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

So three ideas for first techs - pottery, mining, and archery. What do we prioritize?

 

[EricTheGreat12]

Well first of all if we are going towards Honor ,Archery and Statue of Zeus it means that we will be going towards domination for probably most of the game. I'm okay with this it's just that if we go through a domination path there's a good chance that we will have to go through a very dangerous path with the AI.

Bugsy, if we are going by the Scout-Monument-Worker path I would do :

a-Add two scouts so we can explore more at a faster pace

b-1 worker is fine early on, but we will need way more considering we're in the middle of tons of jungle

c-Are we going to want to expand quickly? If we do decide to expand in the early stages of the game, we might need a Settler right after the worker as well as the religious settlement pantheon. And considering that Indonesia gets benefits from settling on different continents/islands this could be a good benefit for us

d-I wouldn't rush Archery just yet; if we can go towards Bronze working we can start cutting down more of those jungles instead of just waiting there while we research another tech+ we get Spearmen and well as Barracks, which goes well for us if we're doing a military style of gameplay

e-Liberty is good if we want to get the settler, the production bonus as well as a Great Person (GP obviously depends: general for military, prophet for religion;artist for culture etc...). But if we want to stay small and keep on develloping culture, growth and even some wonders I would suggest on going Tradition