Random thoughts about Europe and the World at large.

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

I doubt jealousy or inferiority complexes are at work, any more than ol Poly's conclusions are correct, even if they are amusing.

I'll give a few examples:

Poly says Bush left a bad feeling about Kyoto, that soured things.

American view: (mine, anyway ) Kyoto was unworkable, and would have crippled the western world's economy, and it would be dangerously naive (or hypocritical) to sign a treaty that is unworkable.

The Election: Many Democrats swear the election was stolen, or rigged in some fashion, yet a number of people have looked at it, and nobody has yet to find evidense of wrong doing, so to use his phrase, it is indeed a canard.

"Your with us or against us" has been totally taken out of context. Bush said that in reguards to supporting the war on terrorism, and in that context it does indeed make perfect sense. A little overseas superiority complex seeped in on that one for you fellows!

Of cousre, he's just talking about the man on the street, not his own views.

Mine are these concerning Europe:
I don't see it as having one mind, I find it perplexing when people say "Europe" when they really mean France, or britain, or some other component.
I do believe France desires to be a counterwieght to the US, and wants the EU to back that position, which most EU countries have resisted.

That's the way I see it.

 

[D' Artagnan]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Are you seriously telling me more Frenchmen (and women) wanted Chirac as their President than Americans wanted Bush as theirs?

How would someone know ? In the US, the majority of ppl voted for Gore, in France, a huge majority of ppl voted for Chirac even those who dislike him.

 

[funxus]

I don't feel inferior, and I mostly like to laugh at your president.
Polymath described my opinion pretty well.

I get the feeling that both Europeans and Americans have pretty weird ideas about each other, and as a European I only know that many Americans have no idea about a lot of things in Europe, but they still say what they think.

 

[D' Artagnan]

Also saying we dislike Bush cuz we are inferior beings is the most laughable thing I've ever heard
Actually, it's pretty sad that ppl (like onejay) think that.

@ AoA
What's next ? France taking the lead of a EU coalition to take on the world ?
It's not because Europeans want to build a strond union that they are necessarly willing to counterweight the US

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

I didn't say Europe, you did D'ar.

I said I believe that is France's desire.

 

[Panda]

Once again a thread that demonstrates how the claim that the Internet brings people together and helps them understand each other is utter rubbish.

 

[jack merchant]

Originally posted by D' Artagnan

Actually, it's pretty sad that ppl (like onejay) think that.

I don't think onejayhawk was necessarily giving his own opinion - he was discussing an argument made by someone else (quite obviously a talking head with rather rarefied ideas about Europe, but that's another matter).

In any case, the kind of arrogance displayed in the 'inferiority complex'-thesis certainly contributes to the resentment felt by too many Europeans towards the USA. It also shows the differences in culture and values, as illustrated by the 'you're either with us or against us' remark. The remark may have been strictly applied to the war on terrorism, but the general attitude of the Bush Administration certainly comes close to it. At least, that's the European perception.

 

[CruddyLeper]

Originally posted by onejayhawk
On CNN today one of the guest experts opined that the reaction that many Europeans have to President Bush stems not so much from their dislike for his Texas accented style, but from their own perception of inferiority. The argument wen like this.

Were Europe to have a united voice in world affairs, then the influence Europe could exert would be much greater, and in line with the place that Europe has held since early colonial times. It rankles that someone, lacking the polish and style which they admire, is able to do things without their active participation, much less over their active objection.

This argument has a number of weaknesses. It assumes that Europe wants political unity, and wants to be able to speak with one voice.

The flaw is, Europe is composed of many nationalities, who speak different languages and have different points of view.

It assumes that Europe held power since early colonial days. Quie wrong - some individual countries had a lot of world power, but many never have (and never wanted to!).

The Europe we have today is a trading alliance. The combination of buying power makes it a world power ECONOMICALLY, not politically.

What many outside of Europe are scared of is the thought that this economic power might be transferred into political will against their interests.

As I said, the lack of political unity makes this unfeasible - individual countries can oppose US policy but Europe as a whole doesn't, because it contains a client state tied to the US at the highest national security level.

Mine. I don't particularly like this state of affairs but if it avoids a military show down, it's the lesser of 2 evils.

I think part of this argument also stems from many US citizens needing to be envied. The fact they may not be undermines their belief system, and is unthinkable to many.

The good news is, some people in Europe do envy the US (the ones that watch TV and swallow it wholesale).

The bad news is, the majority wonder at the gaps in the TV arguments and decide theiy're better off with the "weak and flawed" systems they have.

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by MrPresident
How many Europeans voted for their MEPs?

Everyone that wanted to. If you were too bored to do so, it's your fault, and yours only.
And in any case, the European Parliament's powers are very, very weak - both at the European level and even more so if you compare it to the American Congress. Hey, it cannot even initiate laws...

Western Europe is every bit as democratic as the US. Eastern Europe is not there yet, but the progress made since the fall of communism are amazing, and entry in the EU should only accelerate that evolution.

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
American view: (mine, anyway ) Kyoto was unworkable, and would have crippled the western world's economy, and it would be dangerously naive (or hypocritical) to sign a treaty that is unworkable.

The Economist's (VERY free-market magazine) view on Kyoto is that Bush was right in critisizing Kyoto as being needlessly expensive. However they add quite rightly that what Bush should have done is to propose an other treaty making better economic sense, and push his weight behind it.
Needless to say that he did not.

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by CurtSibling

Don't tell me you Americans are too afraid to have a joke about Mr Bush?

I love making fun of the President. I agree that he is more of a comedic figure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some 'crazy-liberal', nearly the contrary, however, I can't stand the guy. And Texas is not a clean state...I have no desire to go there.

 

[Toasty]

I suppose I'm just about the only American who thinks the United States is inferior to Europe in most ways that matter on a day-to-day basis, then?

 

[CruddyLeper]

I don't know about that. I would say you get a better deal on the price of everyday things though.

 

[Cecasander]

How much Americans believe they do, yet most Europeans don't envy America. Why would they in the first place? For the massive defence expenses, the death punishment, the high crimerates of perhaps for the lack of social security?

I think Bush is one of the greatest idiots living on the northern hemisphere. Terms like 'war on terror', 'axis of evil', 'you're-with-us-or-against-us' and 'old europe' just make me laugh my pants off.
- War on Terror. You have to destroy pretty much entire humanity to end terrorism....
- Axis of Evil. Devining the world in Good and Evil can only be done seriously in a cartoon series. Especialy when you are truely believing you´re pure Good and God is on your side
- You´re with us or you´re against us. Not much free world and democracy, imho.
- Old Europe. This Old Europe is supposed to be one of the economic hartlands of the world. Being -old- does not yet make it obslete....

Etc etc etc. So much Bush/bashing for tonight ....

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by Kinniken
If you were too bored to do so, it's your fault, and yours only.

Boredom has nothing to do with it. People don't vote for MEPs because they feel there is no point. There is no point because the European Union is inherently undemocratic. And I find it ridiculous that Europeans feel the democratic superiority to make fun of the American Presidental election. I say we look at ourselves before laughing at others.

Originally posted by Kinniken
However they add quite rightly that what Bush should have done is to propose an other treaty making better economic sense, and push his weight behind it.

I thought America did propose an alternative, something to do with trading CO2 emissions as I recall.

Originally posted by D' Artagnan
How would someone know ? In the US, the majority of ppl voted for Gore, in France, a huge majority of ppl voted for Chirac even those who dislike him.

What percentage of the vote did Chirac get in the first round of the French Presidental election? Before you say there were many more candidates in that election, let me remind you that there was no limit to number of candidates that could be put forward for the American Presidental election. Britain is no better, Blair and his Labour party got about 25% of the vote in the last general election.

Originally posted by Cecasander
War on Terror. You have to destroy pretty much entire humanity to end terrorism....

You have to kill all of humanity to end murder. Not only a good way of showing the stupidity of the above quote but also rich in irony.

 

[Yago]

I say we look at ourselves before laughing at others

Yes, when do you start looking at yourself ??

 

[MrPresident]

Just after I wake up and let me tell you it ain't a pretty sight.

 

[D' Artagnan]

Originally posted by MrPresident
What percentage of the vote did Chirac get in the first round of the French Presidental election? Before you say there were many more candidates in that election, let me remind you that there was no limit to number of candidates that could be put forward for the American Presidental election. Britain is no better, Blair and his Labour party got about 25% of the vote in the last general election.

Chirac got merely 20 % which is not great but OK considering there is multipartism (Right, Left, Far right, far left) here contrary to the USA which is more like a bipolarisation ( Democrats vs Republicans).

 

[MrPresident]

80% of the French people wanted someone else to win the first ballot of the French Presidental election and the French feel they are able to criticise Bush for not winning a majority. As I have said before and I will say again, we Europeans have no right to laugh at the democratic strangeness of other countries.

 

[onejayhawk]

I seem to have left a couple of mistaken impressions.

First, I did not mean to say that Europeans feel inferior, rather slighted is closer. The reason for the perceived slight is that the opinion of the European community is not decisive in various matters.

Second, well AoA said it, so I'll quote him.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
I don't see it as having one mind, I find it perplexing when people say "Europe" when they really mean France, or britain, or some other component.

I do believe France desires to be a counterwieght to the US, and wants the EU to back that position, which most EU countries have resisted. That's the way I see it.

There seems to be an assumption of relevance which is undermined by the lack of unity.

Originally posted by Mojotronica
your argument here assumes that Clinton offered less than he promised and that Bush offers what he promises or more.

Not exactly, but close. I was citing the basic premise of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy." I disliked Clinton intensely as a President, and like Bush proportionally, so your statement is not far from my personal view. But that's MY personal view. We have had other threads at other times which debated it.

Originally posted by test_specimen
What's next? Different genes?

Funny that you should mention genes, since geneticly modified food crops were the basis for the report I cited.

J