Random thoughts about Europe and the World at large.

[MrPresident]

Creating laws is what politics is all about. The EU is a political union.

 

[smalltalk]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Creating laws is what politics is all about. The EU is a political union.

OK, I will agree as far as inter-europaen matters are concerned. EU-law precedes national law.

A few examples:
- free border traffic
- free choice of living and working place
- lots of agricultural and nutritional regulations
- environmental laws
- worker security
- copyright act
- military service for women

No examples for a common foreign policy though.

European parliament does not gain much attention. Just look at the number of voters. A European Constitution does not yet exist.

But maybe I should just be a bit more patient. Looking backwards, all achievments have been accomplished quite fast, in a mere 50 years.

 

[Kentonio]

C. giving the British any kind of influence over domestic politics.

As Britain is worried solely about losing control over our own domestic policy to this undemocratic, corrupt whale of a body I wouldnt worry about us trying to influence your domestic policy old chap.

 

[Yago]

I'd be very happy if you would let this Blair guy know about that. I don't want know one to mess with my countries domestics.

 

[Yago]

Double post. No, really, that Blair guy worries me. I want the UK to be kicked out. Who the hell let them in anyway ? For Turkey, they want some minimum democratic standarts and the UK could get in ? That's puzzling me.

 

[MrPresident]

Yago, you just hate us because we are Europe's consicous. While the rest of you are saying "This is great!" we are sitting in the corner saying, "Actually guys I don't think it is such a good idea." You need someone like that.

 

[Cimbri]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Yago, you just hate us because we are Europe's consicous. While the rest of you are saying "This is great!" we are sitting in the corner saying, "Actually guys I don't think it is such a good idea." You need someone like that.

Thank you for putting every European country in one booth…

 

[scotland_no1]

Originally posted by Yago
Double post. No, really, that Blair guy worries me. I want the UK to be kicked out. Who the hell let them in anyway ? For Turkey, they want some minimum democratic standarts and the UK could get in ? That's puzzling me.

blair worries me too. but dont kick us out please

 

[Kinniken]

Just catching up on the language discussion...

MrPresident, if I understand correctly what you are saying, you are basicaly stating that:
-europeans cannot be expected to speak two languages
-europeans should all have a language in common, english.

So you are basicaly asking every country in Europe but the UK and Irland to make english their official language, the one taught in school and used in everyday life?
I question your sanity...

In posts after posts, you've attacked the UE as imposing too much constraints on member coutries. Now you are basicaly asking european countries to abandon their languages? Something fundamental to a country, to a culture, incredibly more so than a mere currency?
Considering your opinions on european integration, it's a safe guess that if you were an euro-sceptic in an non-english speaking member states, you would be in arms at the very thought of the idea.

Well, I may be very pro-european, but making English the official EU language is too much, way too much. It should be made the official language of the institutions, for the sake of efficiency, but it should NOT replace national languages as the day-to-day language.

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by Kinniken
MrPresident, if I understand correctly what you are saying, you are basicaly stating that - Europeans cannot be expected to speak two languages

No. I am saying speaking a foreign language should not be a requirement for working with or in the European government.

Originally posted by Kinniken
Europeans should all have a language in common, english.

Yes. Europe should have one single common language and English is the best candidate.

Originally posted by Kinniken
So you are basicaly asking every country in Europe but the UK and Irland to make english their official language, the one taught in school and used in everyday life?

Yes. Remember we are talking long-term here, not short-term. I fail to see how the single currency or the single market can work efficiently in the long-run without a single language to go with it. If Euroland was willing to give up their currency, why not their language as well? The benefits of doing the latter are far more concrete than the former.

Originally posted by Kinniken
In posts after posts, you've attacked the UE as imposing too much constraints on member coutries.

No, I haven't. I have attacked the EU (it is not the UE) for being undemocratic and unaccountable but not for imposing too many constraints.

Originally posted by Kinniken
Now you are basicaly asking european countries to abandon their languages?

The French are asking the Normans to abandon their language. Hell, the French are fighting an uphill battle to keep their language going. Why else would they require 15% of songs played on the radio to be in French? A single European language is the future and we should embrace it sooner rather than later.

Originally posted by Kinniken
Well, I may be very pro-european, but making English the official EU language is too much, way too much. It should be made the official language of the institutions, for the sake of efficiency, but it should NOT replace national languages as the day-to-day language.

That is exactly what I am against. People should not be punished for not knowing the offical language of the European Union if it is not their native language. We should not require someone to learn a foreign language just to play a part in Europe.

 

[test_specimen]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Yes. Europe should have one single common language and English is the best candidate.

If you want the minimum number of people forced to learn another language, the best candidate would be German (not that I would want German as a single official language.) Off course from a British POV English would be the best candidate.

Yes. Remember we are talking long-term here, not short-term. I fail to see how the single currency or the single market can work efficiently in the long-run without a single language to go with it. If Euroland was willing to give up their currency, why not their language as well? The benefits of doing the latter are far more concrete than the former.

A single currency is totally different from a single language. Currencies had been aligned before the Euro was introduced, I can't remember huge changes in the exchange rate between the Franc, DM, Schilling and only one big change in Schilling/Lira.

Teaching a single language to everyone is far more complicated than introducing a new currency. Sure, as a grown up you can learn the basics of a language in less than a year, and can get fluent in 2-3 years, depending on the language, but only if you have the time (and will) to study this language. The costs would be huge.

The French are asking the Normans to abandon their language. Hell, the French are fighting an uphill battle to keep their language going. Why else would they require 15% of songs played on the radio to be in French? A single European language is the future and we should embrace it sooner rather than later.

15% is very little anyway. Also I don't think it is purely national pride, but also an economic decision. English language music might be liked better by listeners, but what's even more important, it is better distributed. I think the US/UK music industry had a first mover advantage, to some degree, and since investing in an artist is extremely expensive they just stick to the artists they have and distribute them around the world.

Just consider Germany: up until two years ago there was an alternative music tv, that not only showed a lot of videos by bands you would not see on mainstream, but also a lot of German musicians. Even if they sang in English, they had no way of presenting themselves before, because MTV mostly showed musicians from USUK. They stopped the channel in favour of another mainstream channel (not because they lacked the audience, but because mainstream audience is more likely to participate in sms-voting). Some of the musicians that got known are still there, but there's nothing new coming.

In Austria the same: only few Austrian musicians until a radio station started to play distinctly Austrian music (not only German speaking). However this is a governmental station that also has a quota to fulfill.

That is exactly what I am against. People should not be punished for not knowing the offical language of the European Union if it is not their native language. We should not require someone to learn a foreign language just to play a part in Europe.

I pointed this out before, but it seems you did not get it: if English was the official language in Europe, this would be a foreign language for everyone except UK and Ireland. If English is the official language in Europe, you are already requiring a lot of people to learn a foreign language. What you just said is against your proposal to introduce English as a common language, it is an argument for using every language.

If someone works for the EU while he is at the same time against learning another language to understand most of his colleagues, I wonder what he does in this job. If this MP is not interested in a common understanding between the nations of Europe, he probably misunderstood a reason for the existance of the EU.

Take Spain for example. I doubt that people from Barcelona who are in the Spanish parliament only speak Catalan. Still it is an official language in their part of the country.

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by test_specimen
If you want the minimum number of people forced to learn another language, the best candidate would be German (not that I would want German as a single official language.) Off course from a British POV English would be the best candidate.

I won't deny your last point but far more people speak English either as a first or second language than German. English is the international language so it would be foolish not to have it as the European language as well. Also German is a horrible language, no offence.

Originally posted by test_specimen
A single currency is totally different from a single language.

I just find it interesting that Europeans attack the British for keeping the pound for sentimental reasons but then use the same argument to protect their language. Yes, a single currency and a single language are different but they are also very much alike. Both are needed for the single market to work efficiently.

Originally posted by test_specimen
Teaching a single language to everyone is far more complicated than introducing a new currency. Sure, as a grown up you can learn the basics of a language in less than a year, and can get fluent in 2-3 years, depending on the language, but only if you have the time (and will) to study this language. The costs would be huge.

Think long-term. I am talking about 20 to 30 years. Also the costs may be huge but the benefits would be astronomical.

Originally posted by test_specimen
15% is very little anyway.

It's 15% more than 0.

Originally posted by test_specimen
English language music might be liked better by listeners, but what's even more important, it is better distributed.

If the French want French music they can have it. Apparently they did not want it, or at least not as much as English. I say give the people want they want.

Originally posted by test_specimen
They stopped the channel in favour of another mainstream channel (not because they lacked the audience, but because mainstream audience is more likely to participate in sms-voting).

I'm sorry but that is just plain silly. If there is an audience for something then there will be a television channel, trust me.

Originally posted by test_specimen
If English is the official language in Europe, you are already requiring a lot of people to learn a foreign language. What you just said is against your proposal to introduce English as a common language, it is an argument for using every language

We're talking long-term, not tomorrow. European countries should introduce a gradual step-by-step plan to introduce English to their populations. Over time it would be widely used by almost everyone in Europe, then you change the official language of the European Union to English. I thought this is what Europeans liked? Big plans, over a long period of time, designed to bring us all closer together. We need labour flexibility in Europe, we need an Italian to be able to move to England/Spain/Poland etc at the drop of a hat. We need Europe to have a single country and we need it sooner rather than later.

 

[Akka]

I wonder how you would support this position, Mr President, if the official langage was, let's say, French.

 

[anarres]

Also, the UK won't use the Euro until our morgage rate are set independantly from the rate of inflation.

I believe we are the only EU country to tie morgate rates directly to the base rate, if we went for the Euro now we would totally screw with the morgage lending sector. I am in total favour of a single currency, but no UK governemnt would agree to it while we are so badly prepared.

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by Akka
I wonder how you would support this position, Mr President, if the official langage was, let's say, French.

Je n'aurait pas de problème que ce soit. Si Français ont été choisis comme la langue européenne seule je tout ferais dans mes pouvoirs pour l'apprendre.

 

[Akka]

Hopefully not using automated translator this time, I hope ?

(sorry, but it shows )

 

[MrPresident]

That's exactly why English should be the European language. You speak English, I don't speak French.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by MrPresident
That's exactly why English should be the European language. You speak English, I don't speak French.

It shows that anglophones expect others to speak their language.
I hardly consider it's a kind of mentality that should be encouraged.
Diversity is better than homogeneity.

And that's precisely why I would like the UE to NOT take english as officialy language. There is already the US to make people speak english. Let's pick German, French, Spanish or Italian.
Or none at all, and encourage people to become multilingual.

 

[Yago]

And that's why I am worried about the British. They somehow have the feeling, they are to dictate which language everyone has to speak.

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by Akka
Diversity is better than homogeneity.

Not in this case. A single language would mean everyone could communicate with everyone else. A vital component in a single market.

Originally posted by Akka
And that's precisely why I would like the UE to NOT take english as officialy language. There is already the US to make people speak english. Let's pick German, French, Spanish or Italian.

That is difference for the sake of difference. It is preciesly because America also speaks English that we should choose it.

Originally posted by Akka
And that's why I am worried about the British. They somehow have the feeling, they are to dictate which language everyone has to speak.

Another attack on the British. I am not dictating anything I am merely saying that a single European language is necessary for the single market to work efficiently. As for that language being English, well, it is the single most spoken language in the world. So I hardly think it is not suitable candidate for the job.