Random thoughts about Europe and the World at large.

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by smalltalk
People are often bi-lingual in border regions. Also, some people claim that children raised in a mutlilingual envirnoment tend to be more intelligent. If this should turn out true, I'd say let's go for it, we badly need it.

THis is mixed truth. Living near a border area, I can say with certainty that children will tend to learn two languages improperly, and wind up with none. In America they call it Tejano, after the Spanish (or Mexican) word that gave Texas its name. The border areas are a mismash of mangled English and gutter Spanish, and the schools tear their hair out teaching either.

One may be sure that if Hitler had won the war, there would be only one official language in Europe. I am not sure that is a recomendation.

Originally posted by MrPresident
That's exactly why English should be the European language. You speak English, I don't speak French.

Spoken like an American. I am not sure if that is a recomendation either.

J

 

[test_specimen]

The problem with having a President (with vast power) is that most small countries oppose to it. It is ridiculous how Austria for example clings to the moving presidency. I am really getting pissed by European policy of the current Austrian government. They display a narrowmindedness that is second to none. Not only do they demand that the presidency keeps moving, they also want to keep the veto rights for all countries and even a broadening of current bureacracy (so more citizens of small countries can get posts). Let's hope that Germany and France see what is coming and prevent the Austrians from pursuing those views.

 

[test_specimen]

Originally posted by onejayhawk
One may be sure that if Hitler had won the war, there would be only one official language in Europe. I am not sure that is a recomendation.

Franco couldn't abolish minority languages in Spain either.

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by MrPresident

I see no point in being a federation of nation-states. You either are a nation or you're not. If we are going to be a nation then we must have a single common language that we all know is the language of Europe.

I never said a federation of Nation-States (an oxymoron BTW), I said a federation of nations. A nation is a group of people with a common culture and a common tong. A state is an internationaly-recognised political entity, taking care (at least) of foreign policy, defense, and some legislative matters.
I want the UE to become the second, not the first. And I do not believe that you cannot have one without the other.

No. I support a strong European President heading a European cabinet appointed by him(her) and approved by the European Parliament. I say we should get rid of the Commission altogether.

That's exacly what I have in mind. You call it a cabinet, I keep the name "commission", but that looks like the only difference.
The Commission should either be transformed into such a cabinet, scrapped, or turned in a civil service at the order of a real cabinet.

 

[smalltalk]

Originally posted by test_specimen
Franco couldn't abolish minority languages in Spain either.

Nor could the Turks with the Kurdish language.

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by Kinniken
I never said a federation of Nation-States (an oxymoron BTW)

No, it isn't.

Originally posted by Kinniken
A nation is a group of people with a common culture and a common tong.

*cough* China.

Originally posted by Kinniken
Spoken like an American.

I think you will find tjay you speak like the English, not the other way round.

 

[test_specimen]

Another thing which I don't like about a single common language is, that all books, music and everything else connected to language produced by the people who used the language, will suffer a fate like Ceasar's, Cicero's and Ovid's writings. They will only be translated, but never be read again. What would you say if Swedish would become the European language, and no one would speak English anymore (at least in Europe)? No one would read Shakespeare, Milton or Tolkien in his original language anymore. All you could get is a translation, at best you learn how to read English and translate those books into your new language, Swedish.

You would not only lose literature and music, but also a lot of scientific research etc. You would lose hundreds of years of intellectual advancement. And translation can't make up for it. You should just watch a translated movie or read a translated book. It is not the same. It is better than not watching it at all, but when I read a German translation of Shakespeare or Tolstoi it is not the same as reading the original (off course I don't speak Russian, but at least for Shakespeare I can tell you that there is a difference).

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by test_specimen
Franco couldn't abolish minority languages in Spain either.

Give it a couple of hundred years. I grew up around people named Nyberg and Lindquist, Swenson and Sward. They didnt speak much more Swedish than I did. A few phrases at most. It is certainly possible that issolationist enclaves would persist almost indefinitely, consider the Jews for example. Yet even in them there will be a portion that learns the outside language for trade and legal reasons.

Originally posted by test_specimen
Another thing which I don't like about a single common language is, that all books, music and everything else connected to language produced by the people who used the language, will suffer a fate like Ceasar's, Cicero's and Ovid's writings. They will only be translated, but never be read again. What would you say if Swedish would become the European language, and no one would speak English anymore (at least in Europe)? No one would read Shakespeare, Milton or Tolkien in his original language anymore. All you could get is a translation, at best you learn how to read English and translate those books into your new language, Swedish.

You would not only lose literature and music, but also a lot of scientific research etc. You would lose hundreds of years of intellectual advancement. And translation can't make up for it. You should just watch a translated movie or read a translated book. It is not the same. It is better than not watching it at all, but when I read a German translation of Shakespeare or Tolstoi it is not the same as reading the original (off course I don't speak Russian, but at least for Shakespeare I can tell you that there is a difference).

Almost no one reads Chaucer in the original language now as it is, and he is on par with Shgakespeare. Also Dante. You could probably tell me the problems of translating A Doll's House to another, any other, language. My point is that some will be lost no matter what is done. Examine the threads on Hollywood cinema here on the site. Many of the movies made just 30 years ago are almost forgotten.

J

 

[test_specimen]

But the problem with the last 30 years is, that too much has been produced. Only the truly outstanding will remain. I doubt that too many of the good movies will really be forgotten, especially since the introduction of DVDs.

Sorry, I never read Ibsen's "Dolls House". neither anything by Chaucer (though I only read a single German medieval novel, which also was only readable accompanied by a translation. Wernher der Gärtner "Helmbrecht").

Removing a language completely is far worse than forgetting some movies.

 

[MrPresident]

test_specimen, this ain't the dark ages. We aren't about to lose generations of scientific works if people speak a different language. Do the Europeans miss scientific discoveries made in America or Britain because of the translation? Do we miss out on your discoveries? We will not lose hundreds of years of scientific discovery and to claim so is just plain ridiculous.

 

[Yago]

Mr. President forget that, no one will accept the loss of it's own language. No one. Learning other languages, a second, a third, no problem But letting the own language die, no one can demand that.

And by the way, how can you be so sure, that Spanish isn't going to be the main spoken language on the North-American continent in 50 years or so ? And wouldn't it be smarter anyway, to learn chinese as second or third language ?

 

[MrPresident]

Why keep a language going when the people don't want to speak it? If a language dies out naturally then so be it. And if Europe learns English then I think Hispanic-Americans will have even more encouragement to learn it as well. Also there is no such thing as a single Chinese language.

 

[PantheraTigris2]

Originally posted by Yago
And by the way, how can you be so sure, that Spanish isn't going to be the main spoken language on the North-American continent in 50 years or so ?

I can be so sure.

 

[Yago]

single Chinese language.

heh, yes. But I was under the impression, they use 2 or 3 main versions to communicate with eachother and the written language, as they use "pictures", can be, afaik, understood completly independent of Chinese language by all "Chinese" speakers.

And what, the continental Europeans should encourage the Spanish speaking Americans to speak English ? I can rather imagine, that the Spanish enourage the Spanish speaking Americans to stay with their language.

 

[PantheraTigris2]

How many (native) Spanish-speaking people do you think you're going to find in the USA? Granted, they do have substantial numbers in certain areas (near the Mexican border, naturally! - & in some parts of southern Florida.)

But it seems to me that you're thinking their numbers are much more greater than what is actually true. In America, we speak American English. No other language even comes CLOSE.

Out of 90-something channels of cable, I have ONE (1) all-Spanish channel. There's no way Spanish survives more than the second generation, after a family moves here. Like I said, your conception of this matter is dis-proportionate.

 

[Yago]

Lol, I just found the perfect language for me and Mr. President to speak in the future. Sadly I don't speak any Spanish yet, but maybe, that's going to change soon.

In the next century, different languages and cultures will increasingly impact our lives. In the Americas, Spanish and the Latino culture will have the greatest impact.

Additionally, as most of Western Europe adopts a common currency and lower intra-Europe trade barriers, countries with a smaller economy will likely experience a rapid expansion in GDP and foreign investment.

Spain, with its well-educated and relatively young population, is well positioned for economic expansion.

A World Language - Over 300 million people speak Spanish making it one of the largest markets for businesses and one of the most useful languages in the world for travel.

Large population of native Spanish-speakers in the USA - Officially, 10.5% of the entire population (Bureau of Census) or 27.7 million people living in the USA are Hispanics. Most experts believe the actual number is more than 30 million. Within the next 10 years, Hispanics are projected to become the largest minority in the USA.

Easy For English Speakers To Learn - Because of its Latin roots, nearly identical alphabet and pronunciation rules, Spanish is one of the easiest languages for an English speaker to learn.

http://www.casadelenguas.com/whyspanish.html

He, he, I wasted my time with learning English as third language, I should have learned Spanish.

 

[PantheraTigris2]

Do you understand that the VAST, vast majority of these people live in southern California? They came across, or ran/jumped across the border, and are doing the best they can to find work. You can bet they've learned English, too. And ther children, are most certainly learning English, before Spanish.

Yago, you're frustrating me with lack of any real understanding of what the situation is over here. Your conclusions are totally wrong, if you're actually being serious.

 

[Yago]

Yago, you're frustrating me with lack of any real understanding of what the situation is over here. Your conclusions are totally wrong, if you're actually being serious.

That's quite possible. But I actually tried to get Mr. President off the funny Idea, that all should learn English and drop their native languages.

 

[Yago]

Ooops, tripple post. Always happens, when the "too busy at the moment"-sign pops-up.

Anyway, Spanish is going to be the second most language spoken in your country. And isn't Californa the biggest part of your country ?

 

[Yago]

But anyway Spanish in America is not the point, no forced English as first language in Europe is the point.