Random thoughts about Europe and the World at large.

[test_specimen]

According to the OECD Pisa study, United Kingdom's pupils have worse knowledge of mathematics than multiligual Switzerland and Finland. In science they also score lower than Finland, but both times only about 15 pts higher than Austria for example, so the UK is in those categories one of the best ten. In reading abilties (in their own language) they are good average except for reflection on texts (edit: where they are better).

I'm not sure how much time a typical pupil has to spend in school, but after graduation the difference in the knowledge measured by the OECD does not justify not having learned an additional language.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/2002115.pdf

About incest in aristocratic families: that's why we got rid of them.

Willem, sorry for defending you.

 

[willemvanoranje]

aargh, I can't read the link. May I assume the Dutch system is one of the worst?

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by willemvanoranje

no problem with that, values are different even within a family. But what foreign languages do you learn at school?

I learnt Latin, French, German and Spanish. But to be honest, the real issue in my view in Britain isn't for how long we teach foreign languages, or which ones are taught, it's how we teach them. Foreign language teaching in our schools is a joke, and a joke made worse because children are taught very little about English. How is a fourteen year old supposed to understand French grammar if he can't even locate a verb in an English sentence?

 

[willemvanoranje]

you certainly have a point there. Of course the teaching of foreign language cannot be at cost of the motherlanguage.

 

[Pillager]

True, but it's not even at the cost of learning the mother tongue. Children just don't learn the mother tongue. In my experience, our teaching of our language is abysmal compared to the teaching of French in France, German in Germany etc. We've had this discussion before here I think, but it is an interesting one.

I might fulfill one of my promises to one of the mods and actually start a new thread on the subject...

Fortunately, of course, everyone speaks English so the ability to speak a foreign language for us is pretty academic. Pun intended.

 

[col]

Once again, Pillager and I find something we can agree about. The teaching of English Language in English schools is non- grammatical and that severely handicaps the teaching of foreign languages. Most students here dont know what noun or verb is, what a subject and an object is and dont get me started on the use of the apostrophe.

 

[willemvanoranje]

we have to learn those in Dutch, English, French, German....

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by col Once again, Pillager and I find something we can agree about. The teaching of English Language in English schools is non- grammatical and that severely handicaps the teaching of foreign languages. Most students here dont know what noun or verb is, what a subject and an object is and dont get me started on the use of the apostrophe.

They tell us parents that foreign languages are to teach the children grammer. There is something distinctly aromatic about that logic, but I can't track it down. BTW the apostrophe is tending toward extinction from what I have seen. Perhaps they will valuable collectables soon.

An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him,
The moment he talks he makes some other Englishman despise him.
One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't the English learn to
Set a good example to people whose English is painful to your ears?
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely disappears.
Well, in America, they haven't used it for years!
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
Norwegians learn Norwegian; the Greeks are taught their Greek.
In France every Frenchman knows his language from "A" to "Zed"
[The French don't care what they say, actually, as long as they pronounce it properly.]
Arabians learn Arabian with the speed of summer lightning.
The Hebrews learn it backwards, which is absolutely frightening.
Use proper English, you're regarded as a freak.
Why can't the English,
Why can't the English learn to speak?

"Why Can't the English?", Alan Jay Lerner

J

 

[Kentonio]

I think its the English method of teaching Foreign languages that causes all the problems, not because of not teaching correct grammer etc but because they focus too much on such things, in order to invoke interest languages need to be taught in a way that envelops the pupil and allows them to feel they are achieving something. Teach children simple French songs, or jokes or things that interest them, try and force them to learn French tenses and they'll quietly go to sleep in the background.

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by Kentonio
I think its the English method of teaching Foreign languages that causes all the problems, not because of not teaching correct grammer etc but because they focus too much on such things, in order to invoke interest languages need to be taught in a way that envelops the pupil and allows them to feel they are achieving something. Teach children simple French songs, or jokes or things that interest them, try and force them to learn French tenses and they'll quietly go to sleep in the background.

I totaly agree with you there. It's not a fully english problem though, I have the same complaints to make on the teatching of German in France. Of course, the fact that it's a rather ugly language with little science-fiction written in it did not help Not to mention that the one German author I would realy have liked to read in the text is Goethe, and that was totaly beyong my very poor skills.

 

[Yago]

Hm, my method to learn foreign languages is, to start to post on boards in foreign langauges and look what happens.

Most of the British I know who live here, have learned the language pretty well, I must say. I haven't realized, that the English foreign language teaching is in such a bad shape. Hm, but maybe those who didn't manage to learn it went back home, so the ones I know and genereally the ones who came here aren't representative.

 

[Sayounara]

I see... European Soldiers will be elite eventually. Than they arrow the world...

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by Sayounara
I see... European Soldiers will be elite eventually. Than they arrow the world...

They need a common foreign policy first.

 

[Yago]

I see... European Soldiers will be elite eventually. Than they arrow the world...

That's the 21 century. Armies are a foolish waste of money.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Right now maybe....but you never know.

 

[test_specimen]

Originally posted by Kinniken

Not to mention that the one German author I would realy have liked to read in the text is Goethe, and that was totaly beyong my very poor skills.

I don't want to insult you, but if you learned German in school then it is total insanity to read Goethe as a part of learning. Not only is his language outdated, the style he is writing in is extremely hard to read. In Austria the first time we read books by Goethe and Schiller is 14-18. If you want an easy excercise try some short Kafka stories, they are precise considering the language and rather easy to understand (but nevertheless a good read).

But if it doesn't have to be a classic, you can also start with some Karl May book (Winnetou or Old Firehand), those are the typical childrens books you usually read around the age of 12. For good fantasy read Wolfgang Hohlbein or Michael Ende. I couln't name a German science fiction author either.

The first french book I read was "Le petit prince" followed by "L'etranger". Both are easy to read and "Le petit prince" is a childrens book. I think Jules Verne is also never a bad choice. My first English book was Sherlock Holmes.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Originally posted by test_specimen


I don't want to insult you, but if you learned German in school then it is total insanity to read Goethe as a part of learning. Not only is his language outdated, the style he is writing in is extremely hard to read.

Tell our teachers that!

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by test_specimen
I don't want to insult you, but if you learned German in school then it is total insanity to read Goethe as a part of learning. Not only is his language outdated, the style he is writing in is extremely hard to read. In Austria the first time we read books by Goethe and Schiller is 14-18.

I never said I tried I'm not mad enough, I knew it was way beyond me. I just said that it's the author I would have liked to read in the text. Though now that you mention it, Kafka is second. I read the Castle and the Trial in french, and both are great.

Originally posted by test_specimen
The first french book I read was "Le petit prince" followed by "L'etranger". Both are easy to read and "Le petit prince" is a childrens book.

I think a lot of people would disagree with that last statement The "petit prince" is much more than a children's book. I loved it when my dad read it to me as a kid, and I still do now

 

[onejayhawk]

Here is a small essay on the lack of virtues of English. Be warned, much of this should be read aloud to get full effect.

Reasons why the English language is so hard to learn:
1) The bandage was wound around the wound.
2) The farm was used to produce produce.
3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
4) We must polish the Polish furniture.
5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.
6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to
present the present.
8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
10) I did not object to the object.
11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
13) They were too close to the door to close it.
14) The buck does funny things when the does are present.
15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail
18) After a number of injections my jaw got number.
19) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
20) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
21) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?

There is no egg in
eggplant nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English
muffins weren't invented in England or French fries in France. Sweetmeats
are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. Quicksand works
slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor
is it a pig. And why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing,
grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham? If the plural of tooth is teeth,
why isn't the plural of booth beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one moose, 2
meese? Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not one amend. If
you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them, what
do you call it? Is it an odd, or an end? If teachers taught, why didn't
preachers praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian
eat? In what language do people recite at a play and play at a recital? Ship
by truck and send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet that smell?
How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and a
wise guy are opposites? You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a
language in which your house can burn up as it burns down, in which you fill
in a form by filling it out and in which, an alarm goes off by going on.
English was invented by people, not computers, and it reflects the
creativity of the human race, which, of course, is not a race at all. That
is why, when the stars are out, they are visible, but when the lights are
out, they are invisible.

J

P.S. - Why doesn't "Buick" rhyme with "quick. And then there is Dr Suess' eternal "The tough coughed as he ploughed the dough."

 

[John-LP]

Well, sir, the English language you speak of it`s American English, correct? And as such you must understand that the American English language is really Old English, German, Spanish, Latin, French, Chinese, Iroquois & other native tribes, etc etc etc. American English is unique because of how it came to be and the various influences from other languages within it.