Ranged Attack Upgrade Path

[Pouakai]

Can you guys think of a better unit to lead from Crossbow - Mortar?

 

[TPQ]

maybe archer -> crossbowman -> grenadier -> mortar -> modern/mechanized/whatever mortar?

I think this is the best solution. Just make sure that both grenadier and mortar have some disadvantage compared to Cannon, or that mortar comes around the same time as artillery.

I'd still want Cannon to be the most powerful ranged unit up until artillery. Modern mortar could be as/more powerful than cannon, but obviously weaker than artillery.

 

[Camikaze]

Can you guys think of a better unit to lead from Crossbow - Mortar?

Why have one if there isn't one that realistically fits?

 

[Deggial]

To prevent the frustration of losing highly promoted units (which did cost somme effort) in union with preventing some outlandish "transformations" of skills into their "fitting" correspondent.

The solution - as stated before - could be: if upgrading crosbowmen to riflemen get rid of the non-fitting upgrades, keep the fitting ones and "reset" the experience level so new experience can be acquired faster.

On the other hand: why do you consider motar as unrealistic? I could very well live with it.

 

[chazzycat]

I like this idea a lot...I friggin' HATE losing my promotions on the crossbow --> rifle upgrade.

The only problem with grenadiers is that they would have longer range than rifleman, which is ludicrous from a realism standpoint. Maybe grenadaries could be a combination ranged/melee unit, who have ranged attack but only 1 range? That way they would have to get close to the enemy but would be able to attack without being damaged. They would throw their grenades as the 1st volley of combat, then would turn to hand-to-hand weapons for defense. Their non-ranged strength would need to be relatively strong for this to work.

Mortars are cool too, but they kinda overlap with cannon/artillery a lot in their function. How would they be different from these units and why would they be worth building? It seems to me like an upgrade just for an upgrade's sake. Grenadiers could just upgrade to artillery, merging the two lines.

 

[awesome]

well, it's already been suggested that crossbowmen would just upgrade to cannons, so you could even just not add grenadiers if you were going to do that. but the difference would be that the mortars, etc wouldn't have to set up. just making numbers up as i go along, so these may not be balanced, but grenadiers could have 18 ranged strength, mortars could have 26 and modern mortars could have 32 or so.

 

[Pouakai]

OR alternatively we could just have a code which switches the promotions

 

[Bivoj]

Maybe not grenadiers (although I'd like to see some 18th century unit ingame), but 18-19th century howitzers instead of cannons would make the thing better as the bridge between crossbowmen and mortar.

 

[Camikaze]

Maybe a solution to the problem of promotions being useless in upgrades would be to separate out the Accuracy/Barrage promotion lines from the Drill/Shock lines and have one lot convert freely to the other when swapping from ranged to melee. So a Crossbowman with Barrage 1 would upgrade to a Rifleman with Drill 1.

 

[Atwork]

ranged to melee

I've noticed a sense of detriment to my battlefield options if I choose to upgrade a crossbowman to a rifleman OR chariot archer to knight.

The loss, of course, is the superior range of movement coupled with the ranged attack option that doesn't require setting up. Losing units with those unique abilities is a tremendous loss on the battlefield.

In my last couple of games, rather than upgrading, I played through the game keeping my crossbowman and chariot archers through the modern era -- using them to support my armor and mech infantry movements. Although obsolete by realistic standards, by game standards the units remain effective in taking out units that have a single HP remaining.

I personally support the crossbowman-->grenadier-->mortar/bazooka upgrade path. I support it less for the historical/realism value than simply for the gameplay value.

Because I prefer not to lose the unique value of the archer/chariot archer line, this is one instance in which I'm willing to suspend my disbelief that a grenadier can lob a grenade farther than a rifle shot, if it means having upgrade options for my archers/chariot archers so that I'm not playing the modern era still with ancient units on the battlefield.

 

[Johan de Witt]

The siege line (catapult-trebuchet-cannon-artillery-rocket artillery) is a slow moving, heavy hitting line. The archer line (archer-crossbowmen) is a mobile, light hitting line.

From a gameplay view, I would suggest using things like field cannons and mortars because they fill the same role.

From a historical point of view, it is perhaps logical that the line ends because battles became a lot more static (until the 2nd world war).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Maybe a solution to the problem of promotions being useless in upgrades would be to separate out the Accuracy/Barrage promotion lines from the Drill/Shock lines and have one lot convert freely to the other when swapping from ranged to melee. So a Crossbowman with Barrage 1 would upgrade to a Rifleman with Drill 1.

That probably would be the best.
Logistics<-> Blitz
Range... (no equivalent)

Otherwise all are OK

 

[blac]

The Simpler option might be
Give Riflemen+Infantry a range of 1

At first I thought this sounded stupid because I thought why not attack them but it would actually add depth to the game. You come fire across rivers, fire from inside a city, or shoot at someone who is on a hill.

 

[blac]

Also the battles of this time primary were fought between two armies lining up and then shooting at each other. It wasn't ranged fighting per-say, like it was in the earlier eras.

I think a guy throwing grenades over a 2 tiles, or over a mountain if he got the promotion is just to unrealistic for me. I'm not for it being 100% accurate but I think that is to far fetched.

 

[Pouakai]

Also the battles of this time primary were fought between two armies lining up and then shooting at each other. It wasn't ranged fighting per-say, like it was in the earlier eras.

I think a guy throwing grenades over a 2 tiles, or over a mountain if he got the promotion is just to unrealistic for me. I'm not for it being 100% accurate but I think that is to far fetched.

And so you think Arrows being fired across mountains and battleships shooting over mountains is? And not to mention the GDR

 

[blac]

And so you think Arrows being fired across mountains and battleships shooting over mountains is? And not to mention the GDR

I do think arrows being shot over mountains is stupid, as well as cities. Battleships on the other hand see advanced weapons systems that would be capable of firing over a mountain to hit a target. Although I don't personally agree with it...

GDR is more just funny to me, there are few times I actually get that far to use it

 

[awesome]

i'm actually surprised the robot isn't ranged itself

 

[Atwork]

That probably would be the best.
Logistics<-> Blitz
Range... (no equivalent)

That wouldn't be best because losing the ranged trait removes an option on the battlefield, which IMO is not the best option.

Again, losing the ability to move and ranged attack with 'light hitting' archers, etc. is such a loss to what I can do tactically on the battlefield that, ultimately, I'm running around in the modern era with chariot archers and crossbowman.

The best option would be to continue the line.

And yes, arrows and artillery/battleship shells being fired over mountains is dumb. Nothing but missiles and aircraft (including helicopters) should be able to cross mountains.

Give Riflemen+Infantry a range of 1

It might be interesting to give them the ability to either make ranged attacks or engage in melee combat (bayonet charge). The waiting rifleman would get to fire a volley (multiple with further upgrades) at the charging unit before engaging in hand to hand combat. Or, opposing rifleman could simply take pot shots at each other, back and forth, until one fell or one retreated.

 

[Bivoj]

And why not to make archer / crossbowmen melee units? (with "first strike" ability like in CivIV) It would make much more sense - now, riffle has far worse range than ancient bow...

It would be more appealing and it would solve the problem with losing upgrades.

Yes, the 1UPT gameplay style is against this, but this is another story...

 

[awesome]

because ranged units are fun.