ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
This chariot looks really cool!
Ratha (Indian Chariot) Project
- Thread starter Blue Monkey
- Start date
Question: During what time-frame were chariots used? (I ask because I have a mod starting ca. 1100 CE and surely they were obsolete by then ... ?)
Thanks,
Oz
Thanks,
Oz
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
The last of the galleries is posted. As you can see, civ-color could be on any or all of
- the riders (obviously)
- pennant
- chattra
- car panels
- horse caparisons
So is anything happening with this project?I was on a frenzy recently, getting accepted into college, finding out I wasn't accepted for on-campus accomodation, having to travel to Maynooth with a friend to find somewhere to live, etc, but that's all settled, and I can get back to work on this project thankfully.
I still need a bryce-compatable horse however.
I still need a bryce-compatable horse however.
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
If one can't be found, is someone willing to accept the challenge to use the model Quinzy is making & create the unit in Poser?
Then what is needed for the riders' clothing, props, & animations can then be worked out in more detail here.
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
Quinzy - go ahead and finish the changes in the ratha itself we discussed above. Maybe when the finished model is previewed someone will be more likely to work with it.
Micaelus - how goes it with the Vedic Era chariot?
Micaelus - how goes it with the Vedic Era chariot?
Stormrage
Ever Present Taskmaster
Ooo! I like it!
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
Actually I think you've done all of them except 1:Sure sure! Can you give me a small outline of the changes you wanted?
"If you could work some version of this symbol into the unit, the way shield emblems are sometimes done, that would be peachy. It's the Sanskrit for "Arya" - what the Vedic Indians called themselves. Feel free to be creative with it, you don't have to use this exact version.
Feel free to stretch it, shrink it, etc. Maybe it could be civ color on the side panels. If it doesn't look good at game scale, don't bother.
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
A single domed roof, I think. If Micaelus makes a two-wheeled Vedic Chariot, it could have the parasol.Do you want the parasol roof or the domed roofs?
And I can surely work that in somewhere
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
I'm certain that someone asked me about ratha tactics - specifically for the Magadha & Maurya empires. But I can't find the post now. So I'm putting the info here - it's an appropriate spot anyway, & hopefully they will see it. The information is primarily from War In Ancient India by V. R. R. Dikshitar. I also consulted Ancient Indian Warfare by Sarva Daman Singh.
Both empires originated in the Magadha region - so their military culture is very similar.
Indian armies were not arranged like modern units - a platoon of infantry or a cavalry troop, for example. Instead they are more like combined arms units. Following the guidelines in ancient texts such as the Arthashastra ( the Indian equivalent of Machiavellis Prince, written by Kautilya, the Mauryan prime minister in 4th c. BCE), the fundamental grouping would be 1 ratha, 10 elephants, 10 cavalry and 50 infantry, all under a single commander. Each ratha had an identifying totemic device atop its chattra (parasol), similar to the standards of the early Roman Legions.* This was probably meant to uniquely identify the units, as well as being a heraldic device for the kshatrya in the ratha.
Ajatasatru, the Magadhan ruler contemporary to Buddha, commanded his armies from the field riding a ratha. This was fairly standard practice for all Indian rulers. It was customary to take chariots, amongst other war machines, as spoils, and this happened to him when he was defeated by a neighboring king. Some rathas have been described as made of iron which probably refers to the frames, overlaid with decorated wooden panels. A valuable material prize in addition to the prestige won and lost. foot soldiers were also often captured as part of the spoils.
Horses were used for speed, rather than endurance. Oxen were used to pull the ratha to the battlefield. The ratha's tactical function was to respond to rapid changes on the field, such as attacking weak points, turning routs, breaking through lines for rear attacks, and engaging the opposing chariots - the vehicles of commanders as well as elite archers.
Despite its speed, the ratha could be easily neutralized by difficult ground. A primary factor in Porus defeat by Alexander at the Hydaspses was the loss of the chariots in a preliminary engagement due to boggy ground near the river.
Based on this information Id suggest that the ratha
*@ Quinzy - maybe there could be a little set of spread wings added to the plain knob atop the chattra, representing Garuda as the paragon of swift vehicles. Or is that too detailed for the scale of units?
Both empires originated in the Magadha region - so their military culture is very similar.
Indian armies were not arranged like modern units - a platoon of infantry or a cavalry troop, for example. Instead they are more like combined arms units. Following the guidelines in ancient texts such as the Arthashastra ( the Indian equivalent of Machiavellis Prince, written by Kautilya, the Mauryan prime minister in 4th c. BCE), the fundamental grouping would be 1 ratha, 10 elephants, 10 cavalry and 50 infantry, all under a single commander. Each ratha had an identifying totemic device atop its chattra (parasol), similar to the standards of the early Roman Legions.* This was probably meant to uniquely identify the units, as well as being a heraldic device for the kshatrya in the ratha.
Ajatasatru, the Magadhan ruler contemporary to Buddha, commanded his armies from the field riding a ratha. This was fairly standard practice for all Indian rulers. It was customary to take chariots, amongst other war machines, as spoils, and this happened to him when he was defeated by a neighboring king. Some rathas have been described as made of iron which probably refers to the frames, overlaid with decorated wooden panels. A valuable material prize in addition to the prestige won and lost. foot soldiers were also often captured as part of the spoils.
Horses were used for speed, rather than endurance. Oxen were used to pull the ratha to the battlefield. The ratha's tactical function was to respond to rapid changes on the field, such as attacking weak points, turning routs, breaking through lines for rear attacks, and engaging the opposing chariots - the vehicles of commanders as well as elite archers.
Despite its speed, the ratha could be easily neutralized by difficult ground. A primary factor in Porus defeat by Alexander at the Hydaspses was the loss of the chariots in a preliminary engagement due to boggy ground near the river.
Based on this information Id suggest that the ratha
- be fast - faster than cavalry
- have good attack numbers, balanced by low defense
- have defensive bombard capability to represent both that it is an archer unit & its role in turning back attacks
- capture/enslave opponents to a low level foot unit
- be terrain limited
- be costly enough to be rare (maybe autoproduce as a veteran?)
*@ Quinzy - maybe there could be a little set of spread wings added to the plain knob atop the chattra, representing Garuda as the paragon of swift vehicles. Or is that too detailed for the scale of units?
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
On a separate note to Quinzy:
Instead of the solid civ-colored rim on the chattra - could it be small sphere primitives to simulate the fringes shown in many of the illustrations? Also, maybe the pole could be moved all the way onto the rear wall. It doesn't need to literally shade the riders, & the written descriptions I've seen place it there.
I'm asking, not demanding. I apologize if I'm being too picky or asking for things that are too difficult or time-consuming.
Instead of the solid civ-colored rim on the chattra - could it be small sphere primitives to simulate the fringes shown in many of the illustrations? Also, maybe the pole could be moved all the way onto the rear wall. It doesn't need to literally shade the riders, & the written descriptions I've seen place it there.
I'm asking, not demanding. I apologize if I'm being too picky or asking for things that are too difficult or time-consuming.
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
I don't know how I overlooked your question before now.
Indians were notoriously indifferent historians prior to the modern era, so the exact timing is not clear. Somewhere beyond 7th c. CE the chariot ceased to be used for anything other than ceremonial or ritual purposes.
In terms of India, your time frame covers the increasing Muslim hegemony. The distinctively Indian unit in this era would be the elephant.
