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Live 4ever! Or die trying
[de-lurk]@Compromise - have you checked that you are using round wheels on those chariots instead of the older style square ones?[re-lurk]
RB19 - True Cultural Challenge
- Thread starter Sullla
- Start date
I'd say that the Chariot luck was awful except those things always seem to lose twice as often as they should!
In future engagments with the Barbarians we should, wherever possible, try to arrange for them to be fighting our Chariots across the river.
It will cap out at about 20 hammers/turn when configured for production (working the forests). Given that city #3 needs to build wonders too, I should think that Medina should only go for the Great Lighthouse and Colossus (I don't think I've ever suggested building anything other than the coastal wonders there).
It can easily be configured to run artists at any time. I would strongly advise against touching ANY of the forest in Medinas radius, for that matter leave the plains and grassland too for the chance of forest spread. That forest means health, and health means more specialists.
If we choose to lightbulb CoL I think we should run Caste System right away and start on the artists. Slavery wont actually be of much use since the land is so dry.
Also we wont need an Academy because our cities commerce potential is utter horsehockye. If we get a high commerce city it'll be one taken from the AI's, and with luck the AI will build the academy for us.
Looking at the save...
Notes:
Medina will still build the Oracle in 5 turns if the PlainsForest worker is moved to fish. No sense in starving it when it can be growing.
If we get a 3rd Settler sometime sooner than expected, then this "Purple Dot" would be a good site, fish, oasis (fresh water) and incense:
The AI's will probably claim that spot before long though. In that case a 3rd settler can go down south somewhere - which needs to be properly scouted to see if there's any seafood down there.
The rice would be good to claim too, altough the city wouldn't be as immediately productive.
In future engagments with the Barbarians we should, wherever possible, try to arrange for them to be fighting our Chariots across the river.
This seems reasonable.
It will cap out at about 20 hammers/turn when configured for production (working the forests). Given that city #3 needs to build wonders too, I should think that Medina should only go for the Great Lighthouse and Colossus (I don't think I've ever suggested building anything other than the coastal wonders there).
It can easily be configured to run artists at any time. I would strongly advise against touching ANY of the forest in Medinas radius, for that matter leave the plains and grassland too for the chance of forest spread. That forest means health, and health means more specialists.
If we choose to lightbulb CoL I think we should run Caste System right away and start on the artists. Slavery wont actually be of much use since the land is so dry.
Also we wont need an Academy because our cities commerce potential is utter horsehockye. If we get a high commerce city it'll be one taken from the AI's, and with luck the AI will build the academy for us.
Looking at the save...
Notes:
Medina will still build the Oracle in 5 turns if the PlainsForest worker is moved to fish. No sense in starving it when it can be growing.
If we get a 3rd Settler sometime sooner than expected, then this "Purple Dot" would be a good site, fish, oasis (fresh water) and incense:
The AI's will probably claim that spot before long though. In that case a 3rd settler can go down south somewhere - which needs to be properly scouted to see if there's any seafood down there.
The rice would be good to claim too, altough the city wouldn't be as immediately productive.
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,601
Grater said:
Now that I look back on other games I've played, I seem to recall thinking this and starting to avoid their use. Now, I rarely build them. Using rivers for defense is a good idea, at least until we find some metal or get some elephants trained.
I actually thought we might run Slavery to whip up some troops or infrastructure in Medina, but you're right...no other city is flush with food.
Good catch! Fortunately, I didn't waste any turns on this. Even going back a turn to the 1040BC autosave, I still needed one more turn of working the forest tile to get to the point where 5 turns * 13 hammers is enough to complete the Oracle. When I first moved off the fish, it was going to be a turn or two longer to grow than to complete the Oracle.
I was going to suggest the same site, but forgot to include it in the writeup. I'm not sure if we'll be able to make it there or not before an AI claims it.
By researching Writing, I think I committed us to Code of Laws as the free tech if Garath pulls off the Oracle. Seemed better than Ironworking when Writing and Bronzeworking had the same cost and I had to choose between them.
On a technical note... Next post, I'm going to try trimming the images so that they fit nicely in the page, instead of posting the URL link. That makes for a much nicer read. But Bl...er...Grater, it looks like you're able to pull the camera back further than I am and still see then details of the landscape (i.e., you don't lose details to clouds). Is this a video card issue? Or am I just mistaken and my planning shot and your purple-dot image are at the same resolution?
knupp715
King
Lurker Comment:
I don't think you can use rivers for their defense bonus with your chariots. Chariots don't receive defensive bonuses.
I don't think you can use rivers for their defense bonus with your chariots. Chariots don't receive defensive bonuses.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Good turns - aside from those chariots. We need to get some Egyptians in here to teach our chariots how to fight! 
Let's see... agree that we should probably use Medina as our primary Artist location. One BIGTIME wonder for this game will be Sistine in that regard: +2 culture for every specialist, especially Artists! We'll need to target that one. Even better, we're Spiritual, so we can swap back to Slavery for 5 turns for some whippings, then pop back into Caste System again. Not to mention that we can change religions at the drop of a pin to suit our current needs. Man, I love being Spiritual sometimes.
Except that Academies are +4 culture as well as +50% science, so we may as well put them in our cities if we get some Great Scientists. Given that we're Philosophical, it should be easy to get at least one or two. An academy in the capital early on really helps a lot (esp. with Bureaucracy).
I love the proposed purple dot site. Just so we're all on the same page, here's a new map:
Red dot is still our most important location, we need to send the settler in production there and get Confucianism to found in the city (with Oracle taking Code of Laws). That will make the German city flip to us in time... I've marked it as German toast on this dotmap. After Medina finishes Oracle, we should have it finish the work boat in its queue (2 turns) then have it finish the settler in its queue (7 turns), MAKE SURE we have an escort for the settler, and HOPE we can get the purple dot location at that time in about a dozen or so turns. That would be a real coup for us. Since that German city IS going to be flipping to us at some point, I adjusted blue dot north slightly for better usage of tiles, while still holding onto the rice. The white dots are fishing cities that we can think about later on.
Techwise, we probably want to get Bronze Working and Pottery next... After that, we'd probably better get Sailing, whip Medina, and have it go onto Great Lighthouse. We all know how much the AI loves building that at a pretty early date. Colossus can safely wait for a little longer. I think Mecca should produce settler/military for a turnset or so here before going back to Pyramids (we look pretty safe to get it at the moment, but better safe than sorry as always). Just be looking to get it around roughly 600BC!
Our economy also sucks, but then again we still don't have Pottery as yet...
Oh, and as Blake said, DON'T chop the forests at Medina, we'll need them for production!
Garath is up, with me on deck. Have fun.
Let's see... agree that we should probably use Medina as our primary Artist location. One BIGTIME wonder for this game will be Sistine in that regard: +2 culture for every specialist, especially Artists! We'll need to target that one. Even better, we're Spiritual, so we can swap back to Slavery for 5 turns for some whippings, then pop back into Caste System again. Not to mention that we can change religions at the drop of a pin to suit our current needs. Man, I love being Spiritual sometimes.
Blake said:
Except that Academies are +4 culture as well as +50% science, so we may as well put them in our cities if we get some Great Scientists. Given that we're Philosophical, it should be easy to get at least one or two. An academy in the capital early on really helps a lot (esp. with Bureaucracy).
I love the proposed purple dot site. Just so we're all on the same page, here's a new map:
Red dot is still our most important location, we need to send the settler in production there and get Confucianism to found in the city (with Oracle taking Code of Laws). That will make the German city flip to us in time... I've marked it as German toast on this dotmap.
After Medina finishes Oracle, we should have it finish the work boat in its queue (2 turns) then have it finish the settler in its queue (7 turns), MAKE SURE we have an escort for the settler, and HOPE we can get the purple dot location at that time in about a dozen or so turns. That would be a real coup for us. Since that German city IS going to be flipping to us at some point, I adjusted blue dot north slightly for better usage of tiles, while still holding onto the rice. The white dots are fishing cities that we can think about later on. Techwise, we probably want to get Bronze Working and Pottery next... After that, we'd probably better get Sailing, whip Medina, and have it go onto Great Lighthouse. We all know how much the AI loves building that at a pretty early date. Colossus can safely wait for a little longer. I think Mecca should produce settler/military for a turnset or so here before going back to Pyramids (we look pretty safe to get it at the moment, but better safe than sorry as always). Just be looking to get it around roughly 600BC!
Our economy also sucks, but then again we still don't have Pottery as yet...
Oh, and as Blake said, DON'T chop the forests at Medina, we'll need them for production!Garath is up, with me on deck. Have fun.
If we do bother with a Scientist the Academy should probably go in Medina, since in the long term it'll produce considerably more commrece than the capital (mainly due to the harbor boosted trade routes and specialists + rep). At the moment Mecca is only producing about 10 beakers/turn. It's not going to get much higher either, I doubt it'll exceed 20 if we keep it as a wonder pump. An Academy just wont have much to work with there.
A settled Artist will produce 14 culture (+16 if sistines), +3 gold, +3 science (if rep).
I think though we should just go for settled artists. Even if the Academy doubles, the settled GA still produces twice as much culture... (along with +3 gold and +3 science (if rep)).
What might be worthy of consideration though is a GS for lightbulbing Philosophy, since that'll be extremely useful.
A settled Artist will produce 14 culture (+16 if sistines), +3 gold, +3 science (if rep).
I think though we should just go for settled artists. Even if the Academy doubles, the settled GA still produces twice as much culture... (along with +3 gold and +3 science (if rep)).
What might be worthy of consideration though is a GS for lightbulbing Philosophy, since that'll be extremely useful.
I was sure I posted something here last night, but apparently 3am is not conducive to actually doing what I think I'm doing. Anyway, the computer I normally play this on is having issues due to having been downgraded to Win 98, but either we'll sort those out and I'll play today or I'll play at a friend's house tomorrow. Either way I'll play in time, though I don't actually have the save.
I think the discussion of scientists wasn't really so much that we might get some on purpose instead of Artists (though I guess if we're trying to go *all* the way away from the beaten path it might) as much as what to do if we get some anyway, in which case I agree that Philosophy is a good call if we can get it before Taoism is founded and otherwise Academies are likely to be good.
Techwise I agree that Bronzeworking, Pottery, Sailing are the high priorities, probably in that order, and the builds from our cities that Sulla mentions sound good, though I'll have a check through myself once I actually have the game in front of me, of course.
Garath
I think the discussion of scientists wasn't really so much that we might get some on purpose instead of Artists (though I guess if we're trying to go *all* the way away from the beaten path it might) as much as what to do if we get some anyway, in which case I agree that Philosophy is a good call if we can get it before Taoism is founded and otherwise Academies are likely to be good.
Techwise I agree that Bronzeworking, Pottery, Sailing are the high priorities, probably in that order, and the builds from our cities that Sulla mentions sound good, though I'll have a check through myself once I actually have the game in front of me, of course.
Garath
Compromise
Emperor
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knupp715 said:
Hey knupp, thanks for lurking. I whipped up a quick Worldbuilder test and my praetorian had worse odds facing a chariot across a river than one on the same side of the river. Looks like the game doesn't count the river as a terrain-type defensive bonus (forest, hill) that the chariots don't get.
So: yes, chariots benefit from the across-the-river defensive bonus.
Just a comment from a lurker =)
Crossing river is considered an attacking penalty on the attacker rather than a defensive bonus, hence any units would benefit from being across river from an attacker.
Interesting game so far, I'm a prince level player that has struggled with the rapid expansion pace for the AI's on Monarch, looking forward to seeing how you deal with it. I imagine Julius has a decent chance of taking the purple site, will you still have enough room to get enough cities if you get cornered into taking a city site in the south this early?
Crossing river is considered an attacking penalty on the attacker rather than a defensive bonus, hence any units would benefit from being across river from an attacker.
Interesting game so far, I'm a prince level player that has struggled with the rapid expansion pace for the AI's on Monarch, looking forward to seeing how you deal with it. I imagine Julius has a decent chance of taking the purple site, will you still have enough room to get enough cities if you get cornered into taking a city site in the south this early?
darrelljs
Immortal
Grater said:
I tried to do this with a Priest in Epic II and got burnt but not knowing the preferences. For a Great Scientist, Philosophy is actually quite high (I guess you already knew that)!
Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
...
This is a list generated by somone in the strategy forum (too lazy to find the link
) by removing all prerequisites, so it is the true order. As long as you research Mathematics (you are about to get Writing, already have The Wheel, and the rest won't be open to you), you can light bulb Philosophy.Darrell
Inherited turn: As recommended, I changed Medina back to working the fish rather than the plains forest, leaving the time to the Oracle still at 5 turns. I did note that both the cows there and more unusually the plains hill were improved without having been roaded, I hope the worker turns were important, since not roading a hill costs a couple.
IT: Bizzy's borders in Toast City pop, much good may it do him. A scouting chariot the next turn determined that this was indeed because the city is Hindu, his state religion. He also offered Open Borders, I saw no harm and a scouting gain and took the offer.
Turn 1, 975BC: Writing came in, so I switched to Bronze Working as needed. Due in 9, so that's pretty much research for my set.
950: Nothing.
Turn 3, 925BC: Mecca finished the settler and I set it for a few chariots before going back to the Pyramids, we're still scarily short on military. The settler got straight to Red Dot in one turn due to a well pre-built road, good work. I also finished scouting the southeast corner of the continent, finding whales but no real resources to justify settling there.
Turn 4, 900BC: Damascus founded on the spot, set to Library for now in order to help out in its culture war, especially if for some reason Confucianism is founded in a different city.
Turn 5, 875BC:
And Confucianism is indeed founded in Damascus. I love it when a plan comes together
I sent the free missionary back to Mecca, since it's the most likely city to need happiness help and if we do go to a religion no way should it be anything other than Confucianism, Damascus is the place where the 5cpt is vital, at least for the moment.
So here's the situation, noting that JC has cities both behind Toast City and up above Purple Dot, though not so close to Purple that we can't found there anyway if we're ever intending to get any culture in the city.
IT: Julius demands our spare horses. I think about it for a moment but see no reason to give in, so I don't.
850: Nuthin' happenin', guv.
Turn 7, 825BC: Our first Great Person of the game, a Prophet (unsurprisingly) is born in Mecca from the Stonehenge GPP. Unfortunately, since we currently have neither Meditation or Monotheism despite their evident use to us (sadly, everything else has had higher priority. Correctly so, but sad) he cannot discover Theology and Christianity for us yet. Our tech is somewhere between 70 and 80%, but only 2gpt are available from either the Kong Miao or the Kashi Vishwanath as far as I know, so that's highly unlikely to be worth it. Since our next GP will only have about 60% odds to be a Prophet since the Pyramids will have finished by that time, and won't be for another 30-35 turns, I think this one just needs saving for attempting to found another religion.
Medina finished the Work Boat and picked up on the partial settler, 6 turns to go, and Mecca finished the third and final chariot of my round and started one, also due in 6. That leaves 3 chariots hanging around our lands and watching for barbs and new AI cities getting in our way, and two scouting one each northish and south through Bizzy's lands.
Turn 8, 800BC: The nets built by the Work Boat drop the due date of Medina's settler by a turn, once I turn the citizen automation back on in the city.
Turn 9, 775BC: Bronze Working in, I switch us to Slavery since there's no chance of Caste System being useful for a little while yet since we can't afford specialists in Medina while still expanding/building wonders there.
I think a little about the next tech choice, since given that we want a whole bunch of low-level techs next it would be really nice to just research Alphabet, trade for them (Alphabet and even CoL if necessary would provide more than enough to get them all) and get a head start towards the Great Library and the Artist at Music into the bargain, but sadly since Alphabet is 21 turns I think Sailing for the lighthouse and Lighthouse can't wait that long, so I reluctantly pick Sailing (before Pottery as Medina will be ready for the whip by the time it's done anyway in 6, so no point waiting). However, if you think either we can afford Alphabet or Pottery is more important than Sailing, Sulla, only one turn will be invested and you can change as necessary for no great loss.
750: Pretty much nada again at the last.
Here we are, then. You have Settlers due in 2 and 3 for Blue and Purple dots, likely enough time for another Chariot to help defend them from Medina before Sailing comes in and it gets other priorities. Probably no more should be built from Mecca even at basically one turn each, since the Pyramids do still require another 8-9 turns and have been delayed enough already. Damascus is still building a Library for lack of anything obviously better to do, and hopefully it will steal the cows soon.
As mentioned, there are two scouting chariots, one trying to slip through before JC's borders close up, and one taking advantage of the Open Borders to scout Bizzy's territory, finding pretty much nothing of interest.
As for religions, both of ours are pathetic and both the other two have 4 times or more their following. No way can we afford missionaries any time soon to compete, though, so it's a good thing we don't need a world-spanning religion this time.
Current Progress:
Mecca: 775c + 17cpt
Medina: 97c + 11cpt
Damascus: 31c + 6cpt
A long way to go yet! Sulla, you're up.
Garath
IT: Bizzy's borders in Toast City pop, much good may it do him. A scouting chariot the next turn determined that this was indeed because the city is Hindu, his state religion. He also offered Open Borders, I saw no harm and a scouting gain and took the offer.
Turn 1, 975BC: Writing came in, so I switched to Bronze Working as needed. Due in 9, so that's pretty much research for my set.
950: Nothing.
Turn 3, 925BC: Mecca finished the settler and I set it for a few chariots before going back to the Pyramids, we're still scarily short on military. The settler got straight to Red Dot in one turn due to a well pre-built road, good work. I also finished scouting the southeast corner of the continent, finding whales but no real resources to justify settling there.
Turn 4, 900BC: Damascus founded on the spot, set to Library for now in order to help out in its culture war, especially if for some reason Confucianism is founded in a different city.
Turn 5, 875BC:
And Confucianism is indeed founded in Damascus. I love it when a plan comes together
I sent the free missionary back to Mecca, since it's the most likely city to need happiness help and if we do go to a religion no way should it be anything other than Confucianism, Damascus is the place where the 5cpt is vital, at least for the moment.So here's the situation, noting that JC has cities both behind Toast City and up above Purple Dot, though not so close to Purple that we can't found there anyway if we're ever intending to get any culture in the city.
IT: Julius demands our spare horses. I think about it for a moment but see no reason to give in, so I don't.
850: Nuthin' happenin', guv.
Turn 7, 825BC: Our first Great Person of the game, a Prophet (unsurprisingly) is born in Mecca from the Stonehenge GPP. Unfortunately, since we currently have neither Meditation or Monotheism despite their evident use to us (sadly, everything else has had higher priority. Correctly so, but sad) he cannot discover Theology and Christianity for us yet. Our tech is somewhere between 70 and 80%, but only 2gpt are available from either the Kong Miao or the Kashi Vishwanath as far as I know, so that's highly unlikely to be worth it. Since our next GP will only have about 60% odds to be a Prophet since the Pyramids will have finished by that time, and won't be for another 30-35 turns, I think this one just needs saving for attempting to found another religion.
Medina finished the Work Boat and picked up on the partial settler, 6 turns to go, and Mecca finished the third and final chariot of my round and started one, also due in 6. That leaves 3 chariots hanging around our lands and watching for barbs and new AI cities getting in our way, and two scouting one each northish and south through Bizzy's lands.
Turn 8, 800BC: The nets built by the Work Boat drop the due date of Medina's settler by a turn, once I turn the citizen automation back on in the city.
Turn 9, 775BC: Bronze Working in, I switch us to Slavery since there's no chance of Caste System being useful for a little while yet since we can't afford specialists in Medina while still expanding/building wonders there.
I think a little about the next tech choice, since given that we want a whole bunch of low-level techs next it would be really nice to just research Alphabet, trade for them (Alphabet and even CoL if necessary would provide more than enough to get them all) and get a head start towards the Great Library and the Artist at Music into the bargain, but sadly since Alphabet is 21 turns I think Sailing for the lighthouse and Lighthouse can't wait that long, so I reluctantly pick Sailing (before Pottery as Medina will be ready for the whip by the time it's done anyway in 6, so no point waiting). However, if you think either we can afford Alphabet or Pottery is more important than Sailing, Sulla, only one turn will be invested and you can change as necessary for no great loss.
750: Pretty much nada again at the last.
Here we are, then. You have Settlers due in 2 and 3 for Blue and Purple dots, likely enough time for another Chariot to help defend them from Medina before Sailing comes in and it gets other priorities. Probably no more should be built from Mecca even at basically one turn each, since the Pyramids do still require another 8-9 turns and have been delayed enough already. Damascus is still building a Library for lack of anything obviously better to do, and hopefully it will steal the cows soon.
As mentioned, there are two scouting chariots, one trying to slip through before JC's borders close up, and one taking advantage of the Open Borders to scout Bizzy's territory, finding pretty much nothing of interest.
As for religions, both of ours are pathetic and both the other two have 4 times or more their following. No way can we afford missionaries any time soon to compete, though, so it's a good thing we don't need a world-spanning religion this time.
Current Progress:
Mecca: 775c + 17cpt
Medina: 97c + 11cpt
Damascus: 31c + 6cpt
A long way to go yet! Sulla, you're up.
Garath
I think we should consider running Caste right after Medina finishes the settler, the 2 scientists will speed along the techs. Once sailing arrives it can be switched back to working mines. It puts a little GS "taint" in the GPP pool, there is no guarantee we can get a GS but I think it is worth chancing, since philo is a nice tech to lightbulb and the 2nd Great Person will be more useful as a scientist than prophet (he'll only be able to lightbulb Monarchy).
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
OK, I have the save and will be playing this afternoon/evening. I'm going to keep Blake's suggestion in mind, depending on the whipping situation at Medina. (Current thought is to whip a lighthouse immediately when Sailing comes in, then go straight on to Great Lighthouse). We'll have to see how it all plays out.
Actually, we're in really good shape so far, methinks. I'll try to hold down the fort.
Actually, we're in really good shape so far, methinks.
I'll try to hold down the fort.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
(0) 750BC Everything looks pretty good right now. The biggest dangers are that 1) our commerce is terrible and 2) our defense is scarily thin. I definitely would have given Caesar those horses if it had been my turn, given that we CANNOT fight him off at the moment, and Caesar's a very, very dangerous foe. Water under the bridge now, of course. As far as the first issue, I agree that we need to hit Sailing first to get Medina started on the Great Lighthouse, but Pottery really needs to come after that. Purple and blue dot cities are going to need some cottages for sure... We also need more workers (badly!) and more defenders, but I'm not in a good position to improve those on my turnset. Once we get this current round of wonders, Mecca's going to need to crank some military and workers, for sure.
(1) 725BC Bis offers to trade us crabs for horses... I politely decline. Medina hits 100 culture and expands borders. There is now a German settler in Hamburg (uh oh), hopefully we can get our settlers into the spots we want first. I send one worker on his way towards the future blue dot city; he starts building a road to the west.
Our Great Prophet... man, it's really tempting to use him to build the Confucian shrine right now. That would be +4 culture in Damascus for the rest of the game, plus the building would double in culture real soon. But I agree that we probably should save him to found Christianity, argh. Hate to make that tough call.
(2) 700BC Medina trains settler, starts putting some shields into... a chariot, I guess. The German settler is heading towards blue dot's location, so this settler must head there and get to the spot first! It will get there in 3 turns, so I think I can win the settling race. (Hope so!) It depends on where the German settler is heading.
I would go to Caste System for Medina right now, but I cannot because we only recently swapped to Slavery. Ah well. I have to wait 2 more turns, so I'll probably wait for Sailing to finish, whip a lighthouse, and then swap to Caste System after that. Hopefully that makes sense.
(3) 675BC Caesar asks for Open Borders, and I figure we may as well for now. That's not going to tick off any of the other AIs. In fact, let's sign Open Borders with Qin as well. Hopefully we'll have good relations all around during this period of extreme vulnerability! Mecca finishes settler, goes back to the Pyramids (9 turns). Frankly, I'm a little worried about Caesar right now:
We're in deep trouble if he send this stack after us.
We'd survive, naturally, but it would cost us purple and blue dots at the very least! Crossing fingers here for the next few turns. Then again, I check the Power graph on F9, and Bismarck is only slightly higher than us. For that matter, the AIs are barely ahead of us on GNP too. Maybe we're doing ok here.
(4) 650BC Settler moves into position on blue dot. We're golden as long as Bis doesn't settle this turn... and he's only 3 tiles from his current city, NOT on a blue circle. I don't think he's going to plant. Worker at Damascus goes to chop and then irrigate a forest; we need food there, and a 3-food grasslands farm will let us work the 1-food plains ivory there. Not to mention we'll get the library done faster too. Scout finds a Caesar settler moving in Roman territory; hopefully we can get to purple dot first. Chariot in far west also finds a barb city, not that we can do much about it.
(5) 625BC Disaster! Someone else builds the Pyramids! Wow. Sorry guys, we were 7 turns away.
Is it just me, or is 625BC VERY early for a Monarch Pyramids? Argh. 
On the plus side, we do get the blue dot location:
Stealing the spot right out from under Bismarck's nose. Baghdad starts on a library, ONLY until we get Pottery and can have it start a granary. It's got little food, so it's going to need one. Mecca swaps to a worker for now; we'll want to probably get a library in there next, for the culture and since it's our best science city (don't laugh).
In other good news, we're definitely going to beat Caesar's settler to the purple dot location. Now if we can just DEFEND these cities...
(6) 600BC Sailing discovered, start research into Pottery. We get 228g from our failed Pyramids attempt, so I up the science rate until we can get Pottery in 4 turns (80% science, losing 3 gpt). Medina finishes a chariot, starts on lighthouse (will be whipped next turn). That chariot heads to blue dot's vicinity, where we could use some more defense.
By the way, purple dot is now considered a "blue circle" location. Both Bismarck and Caesar seem to be sending their settlers in that direction, but we will beat them both to it. Hah!
(7) 575BC Confucianism spreads to Antium, and Caesar converts to it. Excellent news! Now there's a very real chance that we'll want to swap to that down the road. In fact, if we can get Caesar/Qin into religious conflict, we'd certainly benefit from it. Something to consider down the road. Lighthouse whipped at Medina; pop will grow back pretty darn fast there! For the moment, I do not swap to Caste System, but we should keep it in mind for the future.
(1) 725BC Bis offers to trade us crabs for horses... I politely decline. Medina hits 100 culture and expands borders. There is now a German settler in Hamburg (uh oh), hopefully we can get our settlers into the spots we want first. I send one worker on his way towards the future blue dot city; he starts building a road to the west.
Our Great Prophet... man, it's really tempting to use him to build the Confucian shrine right now. That would be +4 culture in Damascus for the rest of the game, plus the building would double in culture real soon. But I agree that we probably should save him to found Christianity, argh. Hate to make that tough call.
(2) 700BC Medina trains settler, starts putting some shields into... a chariot, I guess. The German settler is heading towards blue dot's location, so this settler must head there and get to the spot first! It will get there in 3 turns, so I think I can win the settling race. (Hope so!) It depends on where the German settler is heading.
I would go to Caste System for Medina right now, but I cannot because we only recently swapped to Slavery. Ah well. I have to wait 2 more turns, so I'll probably wait for Sailing to finish, whip a lighthouse, and then swap to Caste System after that. Hopefully that makes sense.
(3) 675BC Caesar asks for Open Borders, and I figure we may as well for now. That's not going to tick off any of the other AIs. In fact, let's sign Open Borders with Qin as well. Hopefully we'll have good relations all around during this period of extreme vulnerability! Mecca finishes settler, goes back to the Pyramids (9 turns). Frankly, I'm a little worried about Caesar right now:
We're in deep trouble if he send this stack after us.
We'd survive, naturally, but it would cost us purple and blue dots at the very least! Crossing fingers here for the next few turns. Then again, I check the Power graph on F9, and Bismarck is only slightly higher than us. For that matter, the AIs are barely ahead of us on GNP too. Maybe we're doing ok here. (4) 650BC Settler moves into position on blue dot. We're golden as long as Bis doesn't settle this turn... and he's only 3 tiles from his current city, NOT on a blue circle. I don't think he's going to plant. Worker at Damascus goes to chop and then irrigate a forest; we need food there, and a 3-food grasslands farm will let us work the 1-food plains ivory there. Not to mention we'll get the library done faster too. Scout finds a Caesar settler moving in Roman territory; hopefully we can get to purple dot first. Chariot in far west also finds a barb city, not that we can do much about it.
(5) 625BC Disaster! Someone else builds the Pyramids! Wow. Sorry guys, we were 7 turns away.
Is it just me, or is 625BC VERY early for a Monarch Pyramids? Argh. On the plus side, we do get the blue dot location:Stealing the spot right out from under Bismarck's nose.
Baghdad starts on a library, ONLY until we get Pottery and can have it start a granary. It's got little food, so it's going to need one. Mecca swaps to a worker for now; we'll want to probably get a library in there next, for the culture and since it's our best science city (don't laugh). In other good news, we're definitely going to beat Caesar's settler to the purple dot location. Now if we can just DEFEND these cities...
(6) 600BC Sailing discovered, start research into Pottery. We get 228g from our failed Pyramids attempt, so I up the science rate until we can get Pottery in 4 turns (80% science, losing 3 gpt). Medina finishes a chariot, starts on lighthouse (will be whipped next turn). That chariot heads to blue dot's vicinity, where we could use some more defense.
By the way, purple dot is now considered a "blue circle" location. Both Bismarck and Caesar seem to be sending their settlers in that direction, but we will beat them both to it. Hah!
(7) 575BC Confucianism spreads to Antium, and Caesar converts to it. Excellent news! Now there's a very real chance that we'll want to swap to that down the road. In fact, if we can get Caesar/Qin into religious conflict, we'd certainly benefit from it. Something to consider down the road. Lighthouse whipped at Medina; pop will grow back pretty darn fast there! For the moment, I do not swap to Caste System, but we should keep it in mind for the future.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Garath said:
(8) 550BC Hey, remember when Garath refused Caesar tribute? That was NOT a good decision:
Yep, I knew there was a good chance of this happening. Well... umm... we're in trouble.
There is an axe and two spears moving on Baghdad, defended by... a single chariot. There is an axe moving on Medina, defended by... a warrior. We're in position to found purple dot, but it can then be attacked by an axe and an archer. 
Err... help?
We still don't have Archery, because we pursued these wonders. Archers can hole up in cities and hold off a much larger army. Chariots can't really do that. I don't see any possible way to hold onto our new cities here. Nuts.
Alright, alright. Enough whining. No one said winning by culture was going to be easy. Time to buckle down and salvage what we can. Bahgdad is toast, so I move the chariot out of the city and pull it back towards Medina. We'll make a stand at our three core cities. The purple dot settler is going to try and dance around in the north and survive for now, hopefully to found a city after we get peace. I also convert to Confucianism in the hopes that that will improve relations with Caesar.
(9) 525BC Bismarck founds a city in a very odd location in the north... strange. Caesar ignores our core cities and continues to head after Damascus and the northern settler. Mecca finishes worker, starts on a chariot (what else would we build in this situation?) Damascus WILL be burned to the ground next turn, nothing we can do about it, and I'm not about to have a chariot stay back on defend to get killed to no purpose.
(10) 500BC A dark day for our Arabian civ, but we vow that this WILL be avenged one day.
I think we can all agree that Rome is going to have to be killed before this game is over, right? 
In the spirit of this turnset, we also lost a coinflip chariot battle where Caesar attacked one of our chariots from out of Antium. Argh. (Yes, he hooked up his own source of horses...)The good news is that Caesar isn't going to get any more cities from us. The bad news is that we lost blue dot (the very short-lived Baghdad) and purple dot as well, although the settler from purple dot is at least still alive. That settler is still dancing around in the north; I have no idea if he'll be able to stay alive until we can get peace. There are two chariots in the north and two chariots in the south available for use. Watch out for a boat attack coming after Medina; Caesar has a galley in Neapolis. I have set research to Archery, because we need archers ASAP. After that, we probably need to grab Meditation/Monotheism and use our Great Prophet for Theology, because Christianity could fall any second now. If we lose the religion, use the Prophet for the Confucian shrine.
Well - just about everything that could possibly have gone wrong HAS gone wrong on this particular turnset.
The settler we built for blue dot location cost us the Pyramids, and then that city was burnt to the ground by Rome. We bluffed and had it called by the AI (refusing a demand from Caesar at this stage of the game was pure weed, however). Aside from the Pyramids though, we really haven't been hurt all that much in terms of cultural victory, however. We can easily bounce back and recover from this. Just try to get peace for now and come back later for revenge on Caesar.The most fun games are the ones with adversity, right?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/RB19-BC-0500.Civ4SavedGame
Sullla
Blake <<< UP NOW
Quack <<< on deck
Compromise
Garath
darrelljs
Immortal
Sullla said:
Thankfully, you meant Baghdad!
I'm really happy you guys are facing such adversity. With such a talented roster I feared a boring game...now there will be lessons to learn and tales to tell.
Darrell
Oh, man. Sorry about that, I guess it's just been too long since I played the sort of game where I had to remember to give in to the big dogs occasionally. Looking back on it you're absolutely right, that was a terrible decision. You think giving him the horses *would* have averted the war, though? You're bound to have a better feel for these things than I do, with so much more experience. I thought we were moving away from the virtually hardcoded way that response was in Civ3.
Well, beating myself up over it will serve no purpose. I'll try not to do it again.
On the other hand, as payback you *did* nearly give me a heart attack when you said that Damascus was about to fall, Sulla, when it would appear you meant Baghdad. At least our Holy City is still intact, right?
That does feel early for the Pyramids to me (obviously, or I wouldn't have built the settler, though note that the settler only took 6 turns and so once I'd built the chariots we were already lost), but I can't be certain since I've a sad lack of very recent game experience to draw on.
Garath
Well, beating myself up over it will serve no purpose. I'll try not to do it again.
On the other hand, as payback you *did* nearly give me a heart attack when you said that Damascus was about to fall, Sulla, when it would appear you meant Baghdad. At least our Holy City is still intact, right?
That does feel early for the Pyramids to me (obviously, or I wouldn't have built the settler, though note that the settler only took 6 turns and so once I'd built the chariots we were already lost), but I can't be certain since I've a sad lack of very recent game experience to draw on.
Garath
*sigh* I knew we were overextending ourselves, I'd definitely have stopped at just the 3 cities then secured things. *mutters something about damned peaceniks*
This is probably a good turnset for me to be playing. I hate the idea of fighting spears, axes and chariots with only archers and chariots. The good thing, if there is one, is that we don't have any cottages as such, he can do only limited harm with pillaging. So I'll send the Roman forces a cordial invitation to come pillage their little hearts out while the Arabian forces bunker down in the cities and glower at the marauding roman forces.
Although bear in mind this WONT work if/once Caesar whips out the Praetorians/Elephants.
I think our research after Archery has to be Alphabet, we can trade for all the tech we need. And we need a lot of it. It's 15 turns for Alphabet, while 8 turns for meditation + monotheism. Alphabet also lets us sue for peace, or in this case, bend over for peace (the next turn player will presumably have the honor of doing this).
I have the game and I've loaded up the save, not going to play yet, just plot.
1) Set Medina to work both seafood and cows so it'll grow in 2 (whip anger will decay in 1). Growth means whipping...
2) Configured Rome to maximize hammers and pump out a chariot every 1.5 turns.
3) Noted that the Elephant at Damascus got Camped instead of Farmed... we can't use a 1-3 tile, we need to work the 2-1 tile for growth. A 2-2 tile would be a free hammer. Oh well Caesar will probably pillage it for us. (also note that Caesar is doing a fine job of trading around Elephants to our rivals)
Looking at things, I'm not sure if we can fight Rome. He'll have Elephants and probably Praets and horse archers. Without another AI's help this will be a brutal slugfest and he can hit harder than us. (thankfully we can get our own eles!)
Remember that when an AI declares war on a human, no permanent relationship points are lost, unless the human actually razes city - you can even capture cities and the AI will be all happy once peace is declared. WE have a -3 with him, but he has nothing with us. It's one of the minor idiosyncrasies of the AI's, they don't hate you when they declare war on you, only if you declare war on them. It makes it seems that they have Multiple Personality Disorder. "Oh? That was Caesar-who-hates-you who declared war on you! This is Caesar-who-likes-you!".
So Caesar can still be our bested friend once this is over.
Research: Forge ahead to things we want, or get Alphabet to get things we need (other techs, peace with Caesar)? The Prophet: Keep him around or just use him on a shrine? (bear in mind we have a clean sweep of the prophet points and the oracle so the AI wont be popping theology ultra early).
Religion: Stick with Conf in order to make it easier to befriend Caesar after the unpleasantries are over, or go back to no-state to make it less likely one of the others will dogpile us? (note: Qin has more negatives with Caesar than he has with us anyway).
--Blake.
This is probably a good turnset for me to be playing. I hate the idea of fighting spears, axes and chariots with only archers and chariots. The good thing, if there is one, is that we don't have any cottages as such, he can do only limited harm with pillaging. So I'll send the Roman forces a cordial invitation to come pillage their little hearts out while the Arabian forces bunker down in the cities and glower at the marauding roman forces.
Although bear in mind this WONT work if/once Caesar whips out the Praetorians/Elephants.
I think our research after Archery has to be Alphabet, we can trade for all the tech we need. And we need a lot of it. It's 15 turns for Alphabet, while 8 turns for meditation + monotheism. Alphabet also lets us sue for peace, or in this case, bend over for peace (the next turn player will presumably have the honor of doing this).
I have the game and I've loaded up the save, not going to play yet, just plot.
1) Set Medina to work both seafood and cows so it'll grow in 2 (whip anger will decay in 1). Growth means whipping...
2) Configured Rome to maximize hammers and pump out a chariot every 1.5 turns.
3) Noted that the Elephant at Damascus got Camped instead of Farmed... we can't use a 1-3 tile, we need to work the 2-1 tile for growth. A 2-2 tile would be a free hammer. Oh well Caesar will probably pillage it for us. (also note that Caesar is doing a fine job of trading around Elephants to our rivals)
Looking at things, I'm not sure if we can fight Rome. He'll have Elephants and probably Praets and horse archers. Without another AI's help this will be a brutal slugfest and he can hit harder than us. (thankfully we can get our own eles!)
Remember that when an AI declares war on a human, no permanent relationship points are lost, unless the human actually razes city - you can even capture cities and the AI will be all happy once peace is declared. WE have a -3 with him, but he has nothing with us. It's one of the minor idiosyncrasies of the AI's, they don't hate you when they declare war on you, only if you declare war on them. It makes it seems that they have Multiple Personality Disorder. "Oh? That was Caesar-who-hates-you who declared war on you! This is Caesar-who-likes-you!".
So Caesar can still be our bested friend once this is over.
Research: Forge ahead to things we want, or get Alphabet to get things we need (other techs, peace with Caesar)? The Prophet: Keep him around or just use him on a shrine? (bear in mind we have a clean sweep of the prophet points and the oracle so the AI wont be popping theology ultra early).
Religion: Stick with Conf in order to make it easier to befriend Caesar after the unpleasantries are over, or go back to no-state to make it less likely one of the others will dogpile us? (note: Qin has more negatives with Caesar than he has with us anyway).
--Blake.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Whoops, sorry about confusing Damascus and Baghdad in that turn report. Sorry if I gave anyone a heart attack!
Are you sure there's only one more turn of whip anger at Medina, Blake? I'm pretty sure that there's about 8 more turns left. I only whipped a couple turns ago... I'd check on that before letting the city grow into unhappiness. (Remember, Normal speed, not Epic.)
We probably need to go for Alphabet next, if only because the AI is not likely to give us peace unless we give Caesar some kind of tech. (Definitely need to trade for Meditation/Monotheism and use Prophet after that.) I have no doubt that we can exhibit a punishing revenge on Caesar if we want to though; this is only Monarch, after all, and cats + elephants are pretty uber against the AI. Don't forget, we may have iron somewhere around here too.
Oh, and not trying to beat up Garath or anything, but I've come to know Caesar's AI personality pretty well. If he's got a military advantage, and relations are bad, he IS coming after you. In that respect, Caesar's more dangerous than someone like Temujin or Monty, who will simply declare for the hell of it without having a credible stack. Caesar likes to build the big stacks and then attack. He very often issues demands before attacking though, and if you refuse... well, that makes the attack much more likely. The writing was all over the wall that he was coming for us - it's not an accident that I mentioned that about 5 times in the initial turns (I know this game too well sometimes!) So don't worry about it, just some advice for the future and for our readers out there.
Sorry if I gave anyone a heart attack!Are you sure there's only one more turn of whip anger at Medina, Blake? I'm pretty sure that there's about 8 more turns left. I only whipped a couple turns ago... I'd check on that before letting the city grow into unhappiness. (Remember, Normal speed, not Epic.)
We probably need to go for Alphabet next, if only because the AI is not likely to give us peace unless we give Caesar some kind of tech. (Definitely need to trade for Meditation/Monotheism and use Prophet after that.) I have no doubt that we can exhibit a punishing revenge on Caesar if we want to though; this is only Monarch, after all, and cats + elephants are pretty uber against the AI. Don't forget, we may have iron somewhere around here too.
Oh, and not trying to beat up Garath or anything, but I've come to know Caesar's AI personality pretty well. If he's got a military advantage, and relations are bad, he IS coming after you. In that respect, Caesar's more dangerous than someone like Temujin or Monty, who will simply declare for the hell of it without having a credible stack. Caesar likes to build the big stacks and then attack. He very often issues demands before attacking though, and if you refuse... well, that makes the attack much more likely. The writing was all over the wall that he was coming for us - it's not an accident that I mentioned that about 5 times in the initial turns (I know this game too well sometimes!) So don't worry about it, just some advice for the future and for our readers out there.
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