RB19 - True Cultural Challenge

[Qwack]

Yes, the plan was to start Pyramids now, and while its being built, stop it here and there to get some chariots out. I was going to send that second idle worker towards the horses to hook them up, since the border would have expanded right when he got there.

Anyways, Ill wait for a couple more comments before playinfg the last 5 turns.

 

[Blake]

It sounds good to me. I'd suggest letting medina grow before training a settler, also giving time to get some defenses out. While "red dot" is a pretty safe spot (since the settler just steps outside our borders and settles right away) there's little sense in taking unessecary risks.

The Great Lighthouse doesn't seem terribly useful to us, altough we may end up with nearly all of our filler cities being coastal and Medina can certainly use a lighthouse once it reaches size 4 and thus works both seafood. However it'd work nearly as well if we just steal it later. It's one of those wonders which can go very early... or really late. We should put at least some priority on it once Red Dot is settled.

edit: On the Oracle. It would be good to get it. But we can't wait until Monotheism. It might be possible to get Bronze working in time to whip it to completion, that could help buy the turns we need. Getting BW first would severely limit our options on techs to pick though... wonder if it'd be possible to get both Mono and BW just in time for the finishing whip, could probably save a population point. But that'd be like 20 turns of research or something...

 

[Touro73]

I love how you guys play this game, it reminds me of how much I still have to learn.
I'll be lurking along as the game continues.

 

[Sullla]

As Garath said, you have 5 more turns, Quack. I think we should hold off on the Pyramids for now and get another settler out (with escort) first. We do have some AI civs pretty close, and that land is going to be taken rather fast.

Qin as an enemy though... ugh. We can re-evaluate things more fully when this turnset is over and a save is posted.

 

[Qwack]

Completed the last 5 turns.

Started off by changing research to Preisthood, since that seemed to be the agreement. Border in Medina expands and worker immediately goes to work on the horses. Barb archers will start showing up soon so we need some chariots.

I just wanted to point out something about Medina. The settler there already has 24/100 hammers produced. We can either build a scout/warrior in 2 turns while waiting for it to grow to size 3(I would suggest this), or start settler right now at size 2. I think both yield settler at the same time so growing to size 3 is probably the better option. I think stopping pyramids for a while and building a few chariots in Mecca once we have the horses connected would make sense.

Ill let the next player decide when to start oracle in Medina, personally, I would prefer to build a settler first as it would only delay the oracle by 4-5 turns, and I agree with Sulla that we need another settler out sooner rather than later. If we do decide to make the push at oracle, we will need writing to get a decent technology out of it(probably CoL), Monotheism only wouldnt give theology unless we have writing prereq.

The save:

 

[Compromise]

Got it. (Specifically, I have downloaded the save, but not opened it up to have a look-see.)

It's Saturday afternoon. My plan (influenced by real life constraints) is to play the turns Sunday evening and post a report Monday morning. If Garath can play and post before Monday morning, I say go for it to keep the game moving along. (Garath, if you do this, just post a note here letting me know we're switching turns this round so I don't end up playing the same turns before you post a report.)

Other general thoughts I've had about the game. It seems to me that in the spirit of the True Cultural Challenge that we might think about constraining our play further by adopting some noble policies. Examples follow...

1) We are a proud, cultural people. Our 3 cultural cities should be ones that we found, not any that are captured from other civs.

2) We are a proud, cultured people. We should limit our unilateral declarations of war to civs who "offend" us. Examples include: unreasonable demands (anything that makes them mad if we refuse), overlapping cultural borders (hey, we're proud of our culture, and of course anyone who's every declared war unexpectedly on us before.

Of course, part of our cultural heritage might include shrewd diplomacy that ends up pitting one nation against another primarily for our benefit, not theirs. I don't think our fine people would frown on that!

 

[Compromise]

I had a brief moment to scan the save. I see German cultural borders on the wine west of Mecca! Looks like the city center is SW of the wine on the hill.



Might have to rethink our dot-plan.

 

[Qwack]

Oh wow I didnt notice that. Blame Germanies white border ;D.

Anyhow, red dot on Blakes dotmap is still available, so I would suggest sending next settler there. I wasnt expecting blue dot to be available anyways if we were going for early wonders.

 

[Garath]

It's not particularly likely that I'll be able to play tomorrow, but sure, if it turns out that I can I'll drop a note and do so.

I do hope those borders aren't in the way of the suggested city according to Blake, but they definitely increase even more the priority of getting another settler and some military out there ASAP. I agree with Sulla, we should pause the pyramids for now, there's no real danger we'll lose them for a while yet. So long as the German city doesn't actually prevent us settling ours we shoudl probably do so even if it's crowded: what sort of cultural people could we call ourselves if we couldn't outculture and push back one city?

 

[mihau]

Watching the game going.

U R looking for the best production sites not knowing where ore is?


whish U luck

 

[Compromise]

It's not particularly likely that I'll be able to play tomorrow, but sure, if it turns out that I can I'll drop a note and do so.

It looks like there's an outside chance I'll get to it late to(Sat)night. If so, I'll post a note before I run the turns so there's no duplication of playtime.

I do hope those borders aren't in the way of the suggested city according to Blake, but they definitely increase even more the priority of getting another settler and some military out there ASAP.

Agreed. Haven't looked back at Blake's dotmap, but assume Quack's right.

I agree with Sulla, we should pause the pyramids for now, there's no real danger we'll lose them for a while yet. So long as the German city doesn't actually prevent us settling ours we should probably do so even if it's crowded: what sort of cultural people could we call ourselves if we couldn't outculture and push back one city?

Agreed. Kulturekrieg!

U R looking for the best production sites not knowing where ore is?

I thought about that too....

 

[T_McC]

I (sort of) tried this out myself, and it is definitely possible. I used Ghandi (my crutch is Industrious, yours is Philosophical) on a Tropical Pangaea.

I'm guessing you went with the Ice Age map to ****** the tech pace, but my AIs weren't close to building Apollo, much less launching. The opponents included Qin and Washington, so a couple of Financial civs on a high-food map (actually 3, but Liz was asked to leave fairly early ). Qin never fought a war after I met him and George didn't fight with anyone but Liz, so he was peaceful from the early Classical on. It will be interesting to see if the lack of food slows the endgame for you.

Victory was ~1915 AD. I generated 14 Great People, no more than 8 of which were Artists (2 Engineers, either 3 or 4 Prophets (Three Shrines, believe I used a Prophet to discover Christianity) and a Scientist). I think I finished with 10 cities (one flip) and four founded religions, so each cultural city could build 3 or 4 Cathedrals.

My game is not completely comparable to yours since I fought a war of conquest early, which tends to happen when you get the C^3 treatment (Corner Coastal Capital) and the AI settles their second city in your first ring . The war would have been irrelevant to the cultural victory if the English were a couple of turns late on their initial settler, but since they beat me to a great spot my third cultural city was London . You don't appear to have an AI capital in your 2nd ring in this game so you should be able to pick three city sites of your own. The other thing that makes my game an imperfect shadow was that late in the game I ended up running 10% lux tax to keep my other cities happy (thanks Emancipation!). This was worth 6-7 raw cpt to each cultural city, although it was compensated for by not bothering to reconfigure for max food (and max artists) once I was satisfied that the cities weren't going to build anymore wonders.

From my experience the must-have wonder here is the Sistine Chapel. Combine that with Caste System and a few multipliers and you can turn 2 food into 20 culture. You might also want to slow-play Democracy and sacrifice the SoL in order to avoid problems with Emancipation (or you could just be friendly with the AI and have them trade you luxuries ).

Good luck with this, I'll be an interested observer.

 

[Blake]

Watching the game going.

U R looking for the best production sites not knowing where ore is?


whish U luck

Well we do know where horses are and they're about as good as ore mines.


As for that German Wine city, if I'm not mistaken it wont prevent founding Red Dot, but will steal the cows until we get enough culture. Since red dot can immediatly work the horses and ivory this isn't a huge issue. I'm pretty sure that between our borders and the german city Red Dot will now be offlimits to the AI so we probably wont get blocked from founding there.

One good thing is that the german city greatly reduces the danger of barbarians.

 

[T_McC]

Couple of other salient points from my pseudo-shadow:

The crossover point where it's better to merge an Artist as an SS is surprisingly late in the game if you're in Free Speech and have a few multipliers built. It may be worth trying to do the math for the first 1-2 GAs you generate.

Tech order can get complicated. You'll have to decide which of the late-game wonders are red herrings, at least as far as having to be built in the cultural cities, vs. the gains from ASAP Biology and running max Artists in the cultural cities (2 food > any wonder in cpt). I stayed max production until the end and got Biology rather late, I think the finish would have been faster with max food/Artists.

And now I'll stop spamming this thread.

 

[Sullla]

That German city doesn't look like its close enough to stop us from founding our planned red dot city, so we should go ahead and plant there anyway. As Blake said, we should be able to culture-flip anything on our borders anyway in good time.

Unless someone is going to be away for a few days, it's better to stick with the stated roster to avoid confusion. As long as someone is playing roughly every 2 days, we're in good shape.

Sullla
Blake
Quack
Compromise <<< UP NOW
Garath <<< on deck

 

[mihau]

Well we do know where horses are and they're about as good as ore mines.

Those horses really saved the day for the Medina
I was pretty surprised to see Blake moving N. 2 seafood resouce is great, but 3 extra oceantiles is not what I would take as a benefit for production.
On the other hand one can NOT walk by fish+clam res. in a single fatcross

I think it was a good decision to settle there. I am just NOT convinced is it a good place for the production city. I would take T_McC's advice: adopt CasteSystem and made Medina a GPP-site for artists.

I would strongly reccomend going for BW + MetalCasting .
reasons:
1) copper reveald
2) forge = production + GPPs for G.Eng.
3) slavery
and maybe IW only to reveal iron.


Great Enginers R a must in Your game: they will hurry cathedrals&wonders or give U extra productivity (+3hamm!). There R only few Wonders providing points for them. Securing those wonders will also prevent AIs from having too many G. Eng. and hurrying wonders on their own.

G. Eng. wonders:
Pyramids(2), Hanging G.(2), Hagia Sophia(2),
+
Penthagon(2), 3 Georges Damn(2),

1 last thought - the best way to win wonders race is to have a tech lead. U won't have a problem with that since U will not use the culture slider - use it!






>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OFFTOPIC: reading abot the obelisks has got me thinking:

No reason to forget about the obelisk either, tho. Built obelisks will double in culture, and I don't think SH-built ones will. After all, culture is what you want here, right?

1. Does the Obelsk built and stonehenge ADD?? - I never tried...

Obelisks built by cities will persist after Calendar passes, plus enjoy doubler for being ancient.
I think you have to have finished them before Stonehenge finishes, though. (Not certain on this. Been a long while since I checked this.)
- Sirian

2. What "doubler for being ancient" ...?? They do give +2... but why??


For sure Stonehenge don't produce culture after calendar (obelisks dissapear) - did this in epic 2.
For sure obelisks ...DO produce culture after calendar (DON'T DISSAPEAR...! I repeat: DON'T DISSAPEAR!) - have it in epic 4.





I'M DISSORIENTED AND ANGRY - I never built obelisks since I usually build stonhenge. Obelisks were unimportant for me because - as written in manual - they got obsoleted really early by calendar ==> I thought they won't be accounted in the late game (when culture multipliers like freespeech, cathedrals,... come in !)
The picture of calendar and the text conected with this tech gives the idea that obelsks get obsolete and don't function, but they still function - they just can't be produced anymore. I know obsolete wonders still produce culture, but it is not their main function. Obelisk's main function is to produce culture so the situation is crazy: obsoleted, but working as usual.
Eventually it is logical, but feels dizzy. Once more: RTFM

I think they stay, but don't double culture production after 1000 years.

Does this mean obelisks DO END at some point??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The offtopic has grown BIG, but I sure did learn sth. new!
Does anybody know the answer for the 2 questions above.




For this game it means, that going for cultural victory U should first build 3 obelisks in the cultural cities and then go for Stonehenge! Blake's obelisk was 100% CORRECT thing to be built (if Medina is to become legendary).
Making Stonehenge is only good for prophet GPPs, but it will prevent U from building obelisks in Your cities = U will lose +2cult (+mult.) in the future after calendar comes in.
It seems U would benefit more NOT building Stonehenge...
(beside prophet GPPs)


PS: All things written above were NOT intended to give advice, teach anybody ...or showoff. I think better when I articulate what I think about and this way I teach mysef best. Hope it can help sb. else too.
I am totaly aware of the fact that it has only been 65 turns played and U can't possibly do EVERYTHING at once.

 

[Compromise]

@mihau: Stonehenge-provided obelisks simply disappear when you learn Calendar. But the ones you have already manually built continue to earn you culture and then double that (to +2 culture) 1000 years after they're built. It is weird that they don't simply fall over and crush some of your citizens, though. (Although I'm still looking for a chance to see some real ancient Egyptian obelisks, so it does make sense that they still earn culture. Totally offtopic: a mod that triples culture every 500 years for structures. And it keeps adding up even for extinct cultures! A dead civ wins the game by cultural victory.... )

When I run my turns tonight, I'm planning to concentrate on building a settler and some military (chariots). I'll get Priesthood too. Next tech is choice between Bronzeworking and Pottery. I'm leaning toward the former, but open to thoughts.

I also think we need to think about a 4th city site. Whether for production, GP-farming or cottaging. We're falling behind in tech, I think.

 

[Qwack]

they will hurry cathedrals&wonders or give U extra productivity (+3hamm!). There R only few Wonders providing points for them. Securing those wonders will also prevent AIs from having too many G. Eng. and hurrying wonders on their own.

I think building cathedrals with engineers is not too great, since they are somewhat cheap and can usually get the 100% bonus from copper or other more common resources. I think if we can get a engineer in time for sistine chapel, that would be a huge plus.

Next tech is choice between Bronzeworking and Pottery. I'm leaning toward the former, but open to thoughts.

If we are going for oracle, we will need writing to get a decent technology, but that choice is up to you obviously. Theres 2 options really, either writing for code of laws, or Bronze working with pottery is a possibility for Metal Casting as the tech we take if we build oracle. We shoudl also go for monotheism sooner or later so we can use our first prophet to take theology, and plus organized religion will be very useful im thinking.

I also think we need to think about a 4th city site. Whether for production, GP-farming or cottaging. We're falling behind in tech, I think.

The solution to this is always getting alphabet first and trading it to everyone to improve your own situation

 

[mihau]

I think building cathedrals with engineers is not too great, since they are somewhat cheap and can usually get the 100% bonus from copper or other more common resources.

During epic 3 I have cut ca. 5 turns on the Cultural Victory by using G. Eng. to hurry Cathedral in the late game. I finished in 2043 - 7 turns before dealine - so U can judge by Yourself the value of that move

@Compromise: thanks, obelisks did advance today in my judgement.

 

[Compromise]

[Edit: After rereading the post, I deemed some edits appropriate. What's not funny is not funny.]

1400BC:
Receive turn with moves achieved
Decide to move full force toward getting the Oracle
Change Medina production to workboat
Change Medina citizens from forest to unimproved horses

1360BC:
Bismarck converts to Hinduism! Now, we have Buddhist and Hindu nations on the island, and we have both religions in our cities. Diplomacy might get easier.
Yikes! Both Qin and Julius have more Settler parties on the move. The island
is filling fast.

Net Medina's fish
Switch Medina citizen to work fish (grow in 1 turn)
Mecca worker to grassland hills
Mecca grows to size 6. Stagnate growth since we're at max happy and healthy
Switch Mecca production to chariot (2 turns)
Barb warrior is visible on hill south of southern tundra river
Switch research percentage to 100% to get Priesthood in 1 turn, not 2

1320BC
Discover Priesthood. Start working on Writing
Medina grows to size 3: working fish, cows, horses
Switch Medina production to Oracle
Scout continues to examine North Bay
Worker moves to Medina plains hill

1280BC
Mecca finishes Chariot; starts another one (due in 1 turn with overflow). Archer is in view at SW cultural border. Move Chariot to forest N of river to lure barb warrior attack. Should easily be able to win, promote (twice), and engage approaching archer.
Mine Medina's hill

1240BC
Chariot in forest loses to barb warrior! That was 2.0 to 4.0; what kind of odds did we just lose here?
New chariot from Mecca attacks barb warrior (now at 0.3 health) with 100% odds. Wins without injury. Will be able to promote twice and engage archer next turn.


1200BC
Set Mecca's citizen to work just-completed grass hills mine.
Chariot takes Combat I, Combat II and engages archer at 94.1% odds


AND LOSES!!! What the....!!!

Okay. I've just lost our first two chariots. One was defending and had a strength advantage of 4.0 to 2.0. The second was attacking with an advantage of 4.8 to 3.0(w/1st strike). And Sullla, you thought your luck was bad with the barb animals. This is ridiculous.


Okay. Emergency measures. The barb archer is down to 0.8 health. We've got a chariot due in Mecca next turn. We've gotta take out that archer. Move our warrior out of Mecca and into the forest to lure the wounded archer into attacking us. (I can see it now: True cultural challenge ends when Compromise allows Mecca to fall to the barbarians in 1120BC...! Garath doesn't even bother to run his turns. No one will ever take me in a SG again!)
Also, another barb archer marches toward our Stone Quarry and will be there next turn.
Notes to self: Monarch barbs rush ~1320BC. Mustn't...neglect...early military.

1160BC
Archer attacks in the inter-turn, and Warrior wins the battle near Mecca. (Thank Shiva!)
New (and only!) chariot in Mecca engages archer on Stone Quarry at 86.5% odds. These are some of our worst odds yet!

Finally a chariot victory. We go down to 1.4/4.0, but finally grind some barbs under our chariot wheels. Chariot heads SW after victory to go bust some fog.
Set Mecca to work on another Chariot, then a Settler after that.
Mecca's worker roads the corn

1120BC
Medina grows and works newly completed plains hill mine
Oracle in Medina in 9 turns

1080BC
Southern chariot to Forest Hill (I forgot to rename him. He should get some kind of award for saving the Quarry)
Scout is watching Central flatlands from a hill for barb and AI Settler activity
Workers are constructing roads to red dot site

1040BC
In Medina, switch from fish to plains forest to get Oracle in 6 turns, down from 7. I think we're cutting the Oracle close and would hate to miss it.
Red-dot site prep continues with worker going horses.

1000BC
Won't hit enter on this turn!
Newest chariot takes fogbusting atop SW mountain
Pasturing of red-dot horses starts
Writing in 2 turns (Strongly suggest Bronzeworking after that)
Settler due from Mecca in 3 turns (Suggest founding at red-dot. Suggest completing Pyramids in Mecca after Settler completes.)
Oracle due in Medina in 5 turns (Can run at food deficit until Oracle is founded, then want to work fish again. Probably complete workboat, then already-started Settler)

So that's it. I lost our first 2 chariots killing a barb warrior and archer before knocking off another archer. Haven't seen more barbs since then and have a decent (but not complete) fog busting operation set up. Northern warrior could probably move since our cultural border is expanding.

For research, I think we gotta look for Copper. We should be able to settle red dot before the Oracle finishes, and so found Confucianism there. That'll help with the culture war with the German city.

I also think we need another city. Either one that nets the other fish, or one that grabs the rice. The former probably has better production, the latter has rice and better grasslands. Tough call right now.

I think we have to get to Slavery quickly so that Medina is able to whip out troops. We also want some cottages because we're in the back of the pack in research.

Here's the last free land we can reach, for planning purposes.