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RB3 - Daring Deity with Ottomans

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by Sullla, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. v8_mark

    v8_mark Prince

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    Yeah, but that means you end up with every unit type on every tile, and no-one can attack anyone else because rock defends against scissors, scissors defends against paper and paper defends against rock.

    The thing about Civ4's stacks, that no-one seemed to quite realize, was that stack composition was actually quite important and nuanced, even down to the promotions. 1UPT is decent in theory, but without a much bigger map and a much better AI, for reasons pi-r8 has already given, it just doesn't in the least work.
     
  2. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    It's an interesting idea. It would definitely help with the clogging near the frong lines, and give more reason to produce larger armies. I'm a little concerned that it would make all your armies the same though- instead of having to choose between mounted vs seige vs infantry, you would put your best of each on every tile. And I think it might make mounted/seige even better then they are now, since they could rely on protection from the infantry to defend them from counterattacks. But I do think it would be a good idea to try out in a mod.
     
  3. Nutteria

    Nutteria Tzar

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    Ofcourse that with my approach you can have the rock-papper-scissor-in-one stack problem.But that is the beuty of it.You are limited by 3 or less units per tile.But just like in Civ IV you can have way more tactical finetuning.For example getting an extra one or two ranged( be it archers or other) to weaken the AI mini stacks or making a defence line with only mounted+melee 2 unit divisions to hold key possitions etc.

    At the same time it will give the AI an easy solution to enforce combined arms and play way more optimal without self choking in its unit blanket.Not to mention it will make him way more hard to deal with at higher difficulties where the AI (just like in Civ IV) has way more divisions then you while still having some "roaming" one unit support troops.Basicly my idea is to kill to birds with one stone.Even 3 birds if you consider that this will give a Big room for some more drastic desing rebalances and open up better ICS problem solutions.

    Still thanks for the feedback and keep up the comments.
     
  4. Corbeau

    Corbeau Jack of All Trades

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    I will say that though I strongly disagree with some of the ideas that I've read here, it's a superb thread. I intend to go heavily into Civ 5 modding once the quarter (and my thesis) is complete, at which point the issues highlighted here will be foremost in my mind. The thread is a huge community service and you should all be proud of delivering such a merciless dissection.

    It's a pity that so many elements of Civ 5 are flawed, because the core mechanics have amazing potential.
     
  5. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    First of all, VERY interesting game to read. I rarely play the higher difficulties because I just don't enjoy the necessary playstyle, but it's always impressive to see a group succeed so well with such a bad starting situation at those levels. Unfortunately, I think one of the things this succession game shows is how little difference your choice in civs makes; taking the arguably worst civ in the game simply meant that you played a game using a generic strategy instead of building around those little boosts particular to your civ, but the generic strategies are strong enough to stand on their own merits.

    On to the discussions:

    I think there are a lot of things that could be done to change the basic economy.

    For instance, let's take city size. Currently, the base research rate depends only on TOTAL population, and trade route income depends only on the total population of your non-capital cities. So ten size 5 cities are just as good as five size 10 cities, but thanks to the semi-exponential growth curve, the multiple small cities are easier to get. (Add Maritimes and it gets worse). And those ten small cities will cover more land area, meaning higher chance of having more types of luxuries and higher chance of having the strategics you need within your border. Expanding, as a result, pays for itself, which makes it incomprehensible that the AI (especially on lower difficulties) seems to set expansion at such a low priority. I had a game recently (on Prince, admittedly) where England never even settled a second city; my sixth and seventh cities ended up boxing them in, but it should never have come to that.

    But what if these relations weren't linear, any more than the growth equation is? What if the first five population of a city gave 0.5 gold per pop in trade income and 0.5 research per pop? And the next five gave 1.0 in each, and the five after that gave 1.5 in each? Or let's say it's more gradual, with 0.5 for the first citizen, 0.6 for the second, 0.7 for the third, and so on up the line?
    Would ICS still be the way to go? Or would you finally have a setup where few, large cities is a better design than many, small cities?

    And there are so many other little possibe design tweaks, many of which have showed up in other mods already. What if the game had Tech Diffusion like previous games, where a civ that falls behind gets bonus beakers when they research something their opponents already know, so that you won't see Greece throwing hoplites at your Mech Infantry? What if there was a larger penalty for keeping a puppet? What if more mid-tier techs required more techs from the other branches of the tech tree, so that it was impossible to slingshot three techs up a single line at once?

    Yes, these are all things the developers should have looked into before releasing the game. I'm not excusing their laziness. But the point is, if it's so easy for us to come up with possible solutions to the most egregious problems, is it really hard to imagine that six months from now this game could be as fun as we hope it would be? (This is why I spend most of my time in the modding forums. People don't spend as much time complaining about the game-as-is, and more time thinking of ways to fix and/or expand it.)
     
  6. Nutteria

    Nutteria Tzar

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    A little idea that came of the top of my head while following the game was that GS need to have a turn delay so they can`t get a chain slingshot at a sertain tech path.I looked at the great artist and the solution was there.You can`t make two consecutive culture bombs but instead have to wait 10 turns.In the case of GS a 15 turn penalty should even things out and won`t make them the-must-make GP in the game.
     
  7. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    I've had that thought before too. I think it's a good idea, but it wouldn't really change much. In this game for example, we only did the "chain slingshot" once, at the very end when I used two GS te get telegraph and electronics. Having mech infantry a few turns later, or not at all, would not have substantially changed this game.
     
  8. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    Could you be more specific on what core mechanics you think have an amazing potential?

    I see the core of the game as totally broken. City growth, research, tech tree, happinness, diplomacy, city states and 1UPT-combat doesn't work at all.
     
  9. Corbeau

    Corbeau Jack of All Trades

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    City states (specifically their missions), 1UPT combat, and the entire culture system (a combination of the new hex-based territory mechanics, new expanded city radius, and the social policy system) are all under-developed systems with much more potential than is actually harnessed by Civ 5 itself. With some hefty modding, I think that one could use the culture system to create a much more complex (and realistic) model of technological development than exists in any previous Civ title. If Heidegger was a modder, he'd be licking his chops right now.

    Really, I'm less interested in Civ 5 the game and more interested in Civ 5 the game engine. It's the first time that I felt like Firaxis was genuinely attempting to surpass Alpha Centauri, even if Civ 5 itself fails to do so.
     
  10. Tarkeel

    Tarkeel Imperial

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    The problem with city state missions (and WLTKD "quests") is that they actually encourage you to not to things while waiting for the quest to be done. Why clear out barbarians around citystates, when you can leave them be and get a quest to clear them? Why search out natural wonders, when you can wait to get a quest to find them? Unfortunately, most of the city states end up giving out "kill our rivals citystate" quests, which I believe is part of why the AIs attack so many citystates.

    I agree with you that many of the ideas sounds good on paper, such as encouraging fewer but bigger cities. As it stands now, the old Civ IV commerce-based economy is far superior at encouraging bigger cities then this entirely population-based economy.
     
  11. Corbeau

    Corbeau Jack of All Trades

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    City-state missions should be far more prolific, proactive, and varied. I haven't checked, but it had better be possible to mod that aspect of the game. I'll be heartbroken if it isn't.

    It really wouldn't be that hard to make the current system encourage large cities though. Many possible fixes have been elaborated in this thread.
     
  12. SevenSpirits

    SevenSpirits Immortal?

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    Are you me? :think: And if not, what are you doing in Seattle?
     
  13. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    I think the game can be really great with some tweaking.

    My favourite is 25 HP per unit, +20% defence in open, +50% defence in close. Half strengh of naval units.

    This remove the bisarr one attackone kill mechanic we have now and it makes important to hold a line to prevent the enemy from runing over your ranged units.

    I would like to add to this no maintanence on buildings, linear cost of growth in cities, an AI that is really aggresive at buying city states and harder ZoCs.
     
  14. elley

    elley Chieftain

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    If you play "the normal way", you can easily attain size 30+ cities and reach well over 120hammers / turn while still making plenty of gold. Just because skipping 90% of all buildings because it suits ICS better, doesn't mean these buildings are as bad as you make it seem. If you then switch to economy, you can make back most of the money you pay on maintenance as well, should you run out of things to produce with your buildings.

    From what I see here in screenshots, your GPT income is pretty much matched by a fully equiped (building wise) 5-7 city empire.

    If you do give cities the room to grow, they will be able to produce the latest of units in 5 turns, which is very much acceptable I think. You could argue the building maintenance not to be worth it, but never having to rushbuy anything because you can build every single thing (except wonders) in 1-10 turns will save you a lot more then 20gpt maintenance for 1 city. I have also never ran into a situation where I said, oh , I'm running out of gold. I think they overall of yield is pretty balanced this way.

    The amount of breakers you achieve with ICS is however way to much due to specialists & combined with great scientists, means you can get through the techtree way faster then any other way. This is probably why your "unit lifecycles" are only a few turns. They should probably remove specialists from the lowest tier buildings (libary, market, ...) make them only come available on the 2nd tier (1 specialist), and 3rd tier (2 specialists).

    The thing about ICS is also that you make it a drag to play for yourself. :) Seriously, I tried it once, and it's just a drag to go through all these cities and continue planting settlers to do the same boring thing. But in the end, all it really gives you is a major science boost, which then makes combat trivial. Gold / production wise, I think ICS and normal empires come out pretty equal, which I think is nice, as it offers you multiple ways to achieve your goal.

    But this threas was a very nice demonstration of 5 great players finishing a diety game. :) A must read for new players, but I sure hope they will also give other builds a try, cause I am still having fun, just not playing it this way.:king:
     
  15. OneFootInThe...

    OneFootInThe... Warlord

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    grind vs play

    in CiV there is mostly grind... and as long as we have 1UPT it will be that way... with old "unloved" SOD you actually got to build one "superunit" or the stack... and move it around like one unit which really reduced all the unnecessary click and drag grind which you have to do with tens of units in CiV virtually all the time... it also gave the AI, if it was superior in the empire building part, a fighting chance. That superunit could be refined, ie looked at "you have to have best ratio of flaniking/ranged/infantry" units or similar in combination with terrain/other aspects, for best effect, as an improvement of the war aspect of the game... or straight go to CTP style war map...

    At the moment no matter how hard they try to code, even if the AI becomes semi-good at using the units in this system, the grind will still be there, even if there will be some interesting decisions to be made if they fix the empire building portion, the interesting decisions will drown in tens and hundreds of clicks required to kill...kill...kill the AI units (totally stupid ones, or maybe a bit smarter with future AI), and click, click, click one unit, on one hex at a time in one turn... it is the worst kind of micro management, as the war is really decided by your science progress (and better units that come with it) and not with any tactical decisions on the map (even if AI was smarter) and on the way there it overwhelms all other aspects of the game.

    and that itself is a CiV killer, at least for me.
     
  16. Nutteria

    Nutteria Tzar

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    I am sorry elley but you will have it way way hard to have a chance at Diety with non ICS strategy.I managed to make a successfull ICS Immortal game but even then I had like 15 citys just because I needed that income and science to be able to keep up with the competition.

    Yes on prince you can even try one city challenge and pull domination win.Hurra it only shows how "balanced" the game realy is.
     
  17. elley

    elley Chieftain

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    On immortal, I managed a cultural win, science win, domination win, and of course diplomatic win, so it's definatly possible. I didn't say it was easy, but then, that's one of the complaints they also have. :)

    I did deity once for the achievement, but other than that, I rather not play that unit-kill fest. :nuke:
     
  18. Vellis

    Vellis Chieftain

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    Fun read.

    I've said it before, but the core of this game's problems lie with the AI. Mostly at the tactical level and noticeably at the diplomatic level. Yeah Maritime food needs to be nerfed, Horsemen are a little overpowered, and ICS spirals out of control as you reach critical mass, but all of those problems are just math. The real reason you guys won this game (not to belittle how well you played) is the AI. If anyone in this topic were in control of the ridiculous Siamese army in the early-mid game, would you have had any trouble whatsoever crushing the meager Ottoman defenses? =p
     
  19. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    Great thread.
    Thanks for sharing this with us.
     
  20. Dicorion

    Dicorion Chieftain

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    Very nice read as usual. I am happy that we found out that there are still "new" players with great writing skills. Bad thing is that they will not continue to entertain and educate all the lurkers any more, because there is almost nothing to write about now ....

    If I can throw some ideas I will just make maritime food limited to a number of cities. The amount of food will not increase with time (technology, historical areas), just the number of cities that each city state can support. Also road to that CS have to be built AND kept alive for getting the bonus. With overall smaller numbers of city states per map (say 8 instaed of 12 on standard maps) this could make things more balanced (maybe). But this will just open another field for improvements to help naturally decrease the need for ICS and help to shift strategy from small cities to bigger ones (e.g. player will be allowed to choose which tile will be obtained via culture in every city, growth curve improved for quiker population increase, little tweaking of maintance and bonuses of city buildings etc...).

    Even in multiplayer all of that things can make Civ5 a good game.
     

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