Aggie
Deity
That is not true. They DO get a temple and that temple DOES get culture.
RBC11 - Cultured Communist Comrades variant (Byzantines/emperor/archipelago)
- Thread starter Aggie
- Start date
That is not true. They DO get a temple and that temple DOES get culture.
Aggie
Deity
Ridgelake also commented on the ToA topic:
"I don't think ToA is the best deal for us. Primarily because of the loss of the 1000year bonuses. Instead, I think that I would go for the Great Library in Constan after Zeus and a rax. It may get eaten in a cascade, but we should probably be able to get 1 more ancient wonder.
With Zeus and a rax, we can focus on culture and growth. I really like the way this game is shaping up for us."
My comment on Ridgelake's point of view: I don't know about the Great Library myself. It appears that the AI is very slow in research in this game. The culture of the building is good, but we could also use the time of the TGL for settling, an argument against ToA as well.
I still like the ToA idea, but indeed the 1000 year bonuses loss is a strong disadvantage. I wait a couple of hours with this one and play LK60 instead
So feel free to come with new arguments, lurkers included!
"I don't think ToA is the best deal for us. Primarily because of the loss of the 1000year bonuses. Instead, I think that I would go for the Great Library in Constan after Zeus and a rax. It may get eaten in a cascade, but we should probably be able to get 1 more ancient wonder.
With Zeus and a rax, we can focus on culture and growth. I really like the way this game is shaping up for us."
My comment on Ridgelake's point of view: I don't know about the Great Library myself. It appears that the AI is very slow in research in this game. The culture of the building is good, but we could also use the time of the TGL for settling, an argument against ToA as well.
I still like the ToA idea, but indeed the 1000 year bonuses loss is a strong disadvantage. I wait a couple of hours with this one and play LK60 instead
So feel free to come with new arguments, lurkers included!
T-hawk
Transcend
IMO, I have a hard time seeing how the Temple of Artemis would ever *cost* culture. You'll mostly be building libraries before temples anyway, and cathedrals in the core cities should make up for any 1000-year bonus lost to building 'real' temples later.
I would also like to inject the RBCiv spirit of "go for it just to see how it works out." Finally, Charis' point about denial is a good one. Go for it 
I would also like to inject the RBCiv spirit of "go for it just to see how it works out."
Finally, Charis' point about denial is a good one. Go for it
Aggie
Deity
Another remark from Ridgelake, made before T-Hawk posted:
"Temple of Artemis
Having thought through this a bit more, I am against the ToA. Here is why.
The ToA puts a temporary temple in every city on the continent. It costs 600 shields to build, IIRC. Theoretically, the break-even number of cities is 10 @ 60 shields a piece. But we will found far more than 10 cities on our landmass. So this makes me think its a good idea.
But not so fast. Those temples go away. We will still have to build a temple in every city. So we don't save any shields from biulding the ToA, unlike the Pyramids. And since we will build the temples later, we won't get as many 1000year bonuses.
The bottom line is this: For the cost of 600 shields, we will get immediate culture in every city that we build on our continent. We will gain 2cpt for every turn that it would have taken to build a temple. We will lose 2 cpt for every turn for every temple that loses its 1000year bonus.
I have not worked out the numbers T-Hawk style. But my intuition tells me that we would have more turns with the 1000 year bonus lost than we would gain from the immediate availability of culture in all our founded cities. And since this is a "marathon" and not a "sprint", I think the long-term view is that we are better off culture-wise hand-building temples and using the 600 shields on other things."
"Temple of Artemis
Having thought through this a bit more, I am against the ToA. Here is why.
The ToA puts a temporary temple in every city on the continent. It costs 600 shields to build, IIRC. Theoretically, the break-even number of cities is 10 @ 60 shields a piece. But we will found far more than 10 cities on our landmass. So this makes me think its a good idea.
But not so fast. Those temples go away. We will still have to build a temple in every city. So we don't save any shields from biulding the ToA, unlike the Pyramids. And since we will build the temples later, we won't get as many 1000year bonuses.
The bottom line is this: For the cost of 600 shields, we will get immediate culture in every city that we build on our continent. We will gain 2cpt for every turn that it would have taken to build a temple. We will lose 2 cpt for every turn for every temple that loses its 1000year bonus.
I have not worked out the numbers T-Hawk style. But my intuition tells me that we would have more turns with the 1000 year bonus lost than we would gain from the immediate availability of culture in all our founded cities. And since this is a "marathon" and not a "sprint", I think the long-term view is that we are better off culture-wise hand-building temples and using the 600 shields on other things."
T-hawk
Transcend
We will gain 2cpt for every turn that it would have taken to build a temple. We will lose 2 cpt for every turn for every temple that loses its 1000year bonus.
Right, but this misses a factor. You also gain culture from the *other* things that cities can build *instead* of their early temples. And *those* will double earlier instead of the temples, leaving ToA as a net gain.
Don't forget the peripheral benefit of free border expansions as well. Grabbing whales faster can significantly help those coastal cities. And I'm still a strong proponent of the "let's see how it works out" factor. Either way, there is no way it's going to make the difference between winning or losing.
BTW, Artemis is 500 shields, not 600
BTW2, you guys are lucky to have such 'problems'. I wish we were having discussions about building the ToA over in Russian Siberia...
Right, but this misses a factor. You also gain culture from the *other* things that cities can build *instead* of their early temples. And *those* will double earlier instead of the temples, leaving ToA as a net gain.
Don't forget the peripheral benefit of free border expansions as well. Grabbing whales faster can significantly help those coastal cities. And I'm still a strong proponent of the "let's see how it works out" factor.
Either way, there is no way it's going to make the difference between winning or losing.BTW, Artemis is 500 shields, not 600
BTW2, you guys are lucky to have such 'problems'. I wish we were having discussions about building the ToA over in Russian Siberia...
Aggie
Deity
I decided to go for the ToA. The argument to 'just see what the effect of the ToA finally will be' appeals to me a lot and we did it with the Colossus as well
Charis
Realms Beyond
Charis
T-hawk
Transcend
One last note (this is is what happens when I'm multitasking between work instead of concentrating): You can set cities to build orders of a temple anytime up to just before Artemis completes. I've accidentally built Hydro Plants after completing Hoover on occasion. The temple will still get built, and I'm pretty sure will then contribute its 1000-year bonus on time. So any core cities strong enough to build their own temple can do so, and the outliers will be working on libraries and cathedrals instead anyway.
Kabuki
Viking Expatriate
I know the debate is over, but as a side note to ridgelake: The denial factor also needs to entered into the equation in addition to T-Hawk's mention of the opportunity cost for other structures that now can be built earlier.
Coffee
Cdn Expat
That is not true. They DO get a temple and that temple DOES get culture.
Well thats not how I remember it but yep it could have been a display glitch prior to the 1.15 patch. A minor thing in the grand scheme of this SG
Well thats not how I remember it but yep it could have been a display glitch prior to the 1.15 patch. A minor thing in the grand scheme of this SG
Aggie
Deity
@T-Hawk: that's an excellent tip you give us here!
@Kabuki: you are correct, that is also a benefit. Thanks.
@Coffee: It is good that you brought it up. I immediately tested it to be sure!
@Kabuki: you are correct, that is also a benefit. Thanks.
@Coffee: It is good that you brought it up. I immediately tested it to be sure!
Aggie
Deity
IHT: The Inca are almost destroyed and the Hittites also have a hard time. I would have whipped the library in Nicaea, but now it is done in 3 and only 11 shields are needed to finish it. The AI has some cash, but at this point I don't think about trading, because they would get bargains. Only minor MM-ing and then I follow Lord Alll Mighty's advise and press <enter>
Turn 1 (670 BC) Statue of Zeus is ours. Constantinpole now starts ToA (due in 38). Ehm...a settler/warrior pair automoves...that's a nono in SG's Lord All Mighty
Turn 2 (650 BC) We discover Currency and next is Construction (due in 21). Smyrna founded north of the sugar. Starts with worker. Adrianople gets taxman to prevent rioting.
IT: The Vikings start ToA.
Turn 3 (630 BC) Nicaea: library->settler. Varna: worker->library.
Turn 4 (610 BC) Adrianople: settler->warrior.
Rome has Code of Laws and the Vikings and Iroquois have money to spend. I sell Mathematics to the Vikings for 93 gold and to the Iroquois for 71 gold.
-I pay 53 gold for an embassy with the mighty Vikings. They are building the Great Lighthouse (in 33) and going for 100% science, have no vital resources hooked up and one lux, spices.
-I pay 65 gold for an embassy with the Iroquois. They also have no vital resources and go 40% science, building a granary.
-I build an embassy in America for 69 gold. Again a civ without vital resources hooked up. 60% science.
-I build an embassy in Rome for 53 gold. They have no vital resources hooked up and do 80% science.
The Aztecs and Iroquois only know us. The Vikings know the Inca, Hittites and Romans. Rome knows the Vikings and is at war with the Hittites.
IT: The Aztecs demand Literature and I tell him to go away. We now are at war with the Aztecs and have war hapiness. The Iroquois start the Great Lighthouse.
Turn 5 (590 BC) Luxury goes to 20%, science to 80% (construction in 12).
Turn 6 (570 BC) Constantinople builds an ancient cavalry. It's a regular one, since the city has no barracks. I decide to keep the city on ToA however.
Turn 7 (550 BC) Adrianople: warrior->settler. Heraclea founded. Starts with library.
Turn 8 (530 BC)
IT: Rome and the Hittites sign peace. The Romans start the Oracle.
Turn 9 (510 BC) Micaea: settler->warrior.
IT: The Hittites start the Oracle.
Turn 10 (490 BC) The Vikings learned the secrets of Code of Laws as well. Trebizond founded. Starts worker.
I decide to play to a round number and do two more turns.
IT: The Romans demand Polytheism. I tell them to get lost. They decide to stay at peace with us.
Turn 11 (470 BC) Constantinople creates an ancient cavalry. Nicaea: warrior->settler. Adrianople gets a scientist to prevent rioting. Varna's library is whipped.
IT: Hittites start MoM.
Turn 12 (450 BC) Varna: warrior->settler. Smyrna: worker->library. Settler/warrior are almost at a spot to settle (one more tile south).
We will be in the Middle Ages in 4 turns. To get there we can acquire CoL from the Romans or Vikings. I would NOT sell them Literature, scince that will give them libraries and culture/science.
I risked war with the Romans, but I think that I could easily do that since they have to reach us with galleys. The barbarian south of Caesara is standing there for ages now. I just killed another one near Constantinople.
Charis <-- Away til Feb 12 or 13, swapped with JMB - On deck
JMB <-- Playing
Dwip
Ridgelake
LAM
Aggie
450 AD save
Turn 1 (670 BC) Statue of Zeus is ours. Constantinpole now starts ToA (due in 38). Ehm...a settler/warrior pair automoves...that's a nono in SG's Lord All Mighty
Turn 2 (650 BC) We discover Currency and next is Construction (due in 21). Smyrna founded north of the sugar. Starts with worker. Adrianople gets taxman to prevent rioting.
IT: The Vikings start ToA.
Turn 3 (630 BC) Nicaea: library->settler. Varna: worker->library.
Turn 4 (610 BC) Adrianople: settler->warrior.
Rome has Code of Laws and the Vikings and Iroquois have money to spend. I sell Mathematics to the Vikings for 93 gold and to the Iroquois for 71 gold.
-I pay 53 gold for an embassy with the mighty Vikings. They are building the Great Lighthouse (in 33) and going for 100% science, have no vital resources hooked up and one lux, spices.
-I pay 65 gold for an embassy with the Iroquois. They also have no vital resources and go 40% science, building a granary.
-I build an embassy in America for 69 gold. Again a civ without vital resources hooked up. 60% science.
-I build an embassy in Rome for 53 gold. They have no vital resources hooked up and do 80% science.
The Aztecs and Iroquois only know us. The Vikings know the Inca, Hittites and Romans. Rome knows the Vikings and is at war with the Hittites.
IT: The Aztecs demand Literature and I tell him to go away. We now are at war with the Aztecs and have war hapiness. The Iroquois start the Great Lighthouse.
Turn 5 (590 BC) Luxury goes to 20%, science to 80% (construction in 12).
Turn 6 (570 BC) Constantinople builds an ancient cavalry. It's a regular one, since the city has no barracks. I decide to keep the city on ToA however.
Turn 7 (550 BC) Adrianople: warrior->settler. Heraclea founded. Starts with library.
Turn 8 (530 BC)
IT: Rome and the Hittites sign peace. The Romans start the Oracle.
Turn 9 (510 BC) Micaea: settler->warrior.
IT: The Hittites start the Oracle.
Turn 10 (490 BC) The Vikings learned the secrets of Code of Laws as well. Trebizond founded. Starts worker.
I decide to play to a round number and do two more turns.
IT: The Romans demand Polytheism. I tell them to get lost. They decide to stay at peace with us.
Turn 11 (470 BC) Constantinople creates an ancient cavalry. Nicaea: warrior->settler. Adrianople gets a scientist to prevent rioting. Varna's library is whipped.
IT: Hittites start MoM.
Turn 12 (450 BC) Varna: warrior->settler. Smyrna: worker->library. Settler/warrior are almost at a spot to settle (one more tile south).
We will be in the Middle Ages in 4 turns. To get there we can acquire CoL from the Romans or Vikings. I would NOT sell them Literature, scince that will give them libraries and culture/science.
I risked war with the Romans, but I think that I could easily do that since they have to reach us with galleys. The barbarian south of Caesara is standing there for ages now. I just killed another one near Constantinople.
Charis <-- Away til Feb 12 or 13, swapped with JMB - On deck
JMB <-- Playing
Dwip
Ridgelake
LAM
Aggie
450 AD save
Lord_all_Mighty
Watching....
Sorry, although I believe I specified where I intended to send them to.
T-hawk
Transcend
Er, one thought that just occurred to me - at the rate you're going, you're going to wind up with a 20k cultural victory in Constantinople before you get to 100k! 
Better let the capital take a rest on wonders after Artemis...
Better let the capital take a rest on wonders after Artemis...
Aggie
Deity
@T-Hawk, that thought occured to me too 
The biggest threat for a 100K win is Constantinople 
I am confident that we can avoid that loss (I hope)...
@Lord_all_mighty: you did indeed tell us where it was intended and I settled on that exact spot. But still it is an unwritten rule to allow the next player the room to make their own decisions.
EDIT: We are still a long way from ToA. I can't imagine that the AI will get SGL's, but still... A cascade could also 'kill' us (I would be surprised though).
Speaking about SGL's: we surely can use other wonders, like the Hanging Gardens or The Great Library. But please in another city than Constantinople!
The biggest threat for a 100K win is Constantinople I am confident that we can avoid that loss (I hope)...@Lord_all_mighty: you did indeed tell us where it was intended and I settled on that exact spot. But still it is an unwritten rule to allow the next player the room to make their own decisions.
EDIT: We are still a long way from ToA. I can't imagine that the AI will get SGL's, but still... A cascade could also 'kill' us (I would be surprised though).
Speaking about SGL's: we surely can use other wonders, like the Hanging Gardens or The Great Library. But please in another city than Constantinople!
Nice turns, LAM and Aggie!
Aggie, thank you for assisting me with my "forum access" issues earlier. I appreciate your help.
Going for ToA is ok with me. We are doing well enough this game that we can experiment some. As many have said, it is a close call whether its beneficial or not. So lets go for the gold.
I suspect that we will get it first. I don't think that anyone has enough of a headstart on us to get it. The other wonders being built are not in "old" competition. By that, I mean two nations didnt start on the same wonder a long time ago and have built up a lot of shields. Even so, lets not hand out the needed tech for it, either, if we can avoid that.
This game really illustrates the benefit of contacts. We have all contacts and have been the tech leaders. Many of the AI have few contacts still. But as they do make contact, the tech pace will pick up. If we do get an SGL, I strongly advocate for the Great Library. I will be surprised if we dont fall behind in tech, despite our scientific nature. And the GL is a great culture magnet. That is why I was advocating us going for it in lieu of the ToA.
I would really like to see us settle around the flood plains ASAP. With a granary already in place, that will be a tremendous location for our pop-rushing ways.
Now that we know the whole island, I'll take a stab at a dot map.
One thing that does concern me is the lack of luxuries. We are going to have significant happiness issues. If there is a way for us to get Sistene, we should darn well figure it out. We are badly going to need the 6 content faces that cathedral/Sistene produces.
Aggie, thank you for assisting me with my "forum access" issues earlier. I appreciate your help.
Going for ToA is ok with me. We are doing well enough this game that we can experiment some. As many have said, it is a close call whether its beneficial or not. So lets go for the gold.
I suspect that we will get it first. I don't think that anyone has enough of a headstart on us to get it. The other wonders being built are not in "old" competition. By that, I mean two nations didnt start on the same wonder a long time ago and have built up a lot of shields. Even so, lets not hand out the needed tech for it, either, if we can avoid that.
This game really illustrates the benefit of contacts. We have all contacts and have been the tech leaders. Many of the AI have few contacts still. But as they do make contact, the tech pace will pick up. If we do get an SGL, I strongly advocate for the Great Library. I will be surprised if we dont fall behind in tech, despite our scientific nature. And the GL is a great culture magnet. That is why I was advocating us going for it in lieu of the ToA.
I would really like to see us settle around the flood plains ASAP. With a granary already in place, that will be a tremendous location for our pop-rushing ways.
Now that we know the whole island, I'll take a stab at a dot map.
One thing that does concern me is the lack of luxuries. We are going to have significant happiness issues. If there is a way for us to get Sistene, we should darn well figure it out. We are badly going to need the 6 content faces that cathedral/Sistene produces.
Charis
Realms Beyond
Good turns, and good comments. Thanks for the dotmap Ridgelake. I do have one thought/issue - I think that after the first and second ring, it should be denser. To avoid the 100K dragging way out, we'll want as many as possible cities. That means 2-3 apart, not 3-4. Also keep in mind that while we cannot found on wetlands, they can be cleared to make grass, which are fine for cities.
The other reason for many cities is: we're aiming to test how effective communism is for total output of shields and cash, and in reducing corruption, when pushed to its limit. I'm sure more math will follow later, but with SPHQ, CTH, PS, we can handle and will want probably triple OCN. On archipelao, that means packing them in tightly, more so than we would normally like.
Actually, even in the second ring region, we'll probably go a bit denser. With normal Republic or such, you would specifically target a decently spread out strong core because that's all you'll get as productive, whether they get 20 tiles to work or 12 - not so for communism - we can handle more cities and get the same income/science levels, for more culture. First ring should have at least 2-3 major production cities of course, for wonders and quick big-ticket production.
Charis
The other reason for many cities is: we're aiming to test how effective communism is for total output of shields and cash, and in reducing corruption, when pushed to its limit. I'm sure more math will follow later, but with SPHQ, CTH, PS, we can handle and will want probably triple OCN. On archipelao, that means packing them in tightly, more so than we would normally like.
Actually, even in the second ring region, we'll probably go a bit denser. With normal Republic or such, you would specifically target a decently spread out strong core because that's all you'll get as productive, whether they get 20 tiles to work or 12 - not so for communism - we can handle more cities and get the same income/science levels, for more culture. First ring should have at least 2-3 major production cities of course, for wonders and quick big-ticket production.
Charis
