RBCiv Conquests SG Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Charis
- Start date
Gobi Bear
BreakAway Games
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2003
- Messages
- 222
AOD is best played as a European power at a difficulty level at least one higher than normal. It makes the other European powers more competitive in settling, and makes the Portuguese tough to beat.
I agree with "romeothemonk" that the losing Europe exploit must be banned. You also should decide whether to play with European conquest or a pure New World-based conflict. I know some MP tournaments of AOD have been run with European conflict banned.
AOD is the last of my scenarios (Fall of Rome and Middle Ages are the others). If you play that next, I'll certainly stick in there with you all.
I agree with "romeothemonk" that the losing Europe exploit must be banned. You also should decide whether to play with European conquest or a pure New World-based conflict. I know some MP tournaments of AOD have been run with European conflict banned.
AOD is the last of my scenarios (Fall of Rome and Middle Ages are the others). If you play that next, I'll certainly stick in there with you all.
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
Another idea would be to have the European civs try to win a cultural victory. I think only civwide is possible, but even then it would be extremely challenging. I would be up for having a Spanish civ-wide cultural victory game or similar setting.
Some ideas (WARNING -- I've not played, I'm just going from recollection of some reading from before C3C even came out):
(Note: I'm only listing ones that appear different from previous suggestions)
- Play as a European power going for treasure victory but you're not allowed to settle in the new world at all (presumably England and their pirates?)
- Domination as a New World power (I'm envisioning LOW difficulty level, like regent). If all goes well, you can demand cities across the Atlantic and build up an invasion force in Europe too.
- European power going for conquest seems a natural approach.
- New World civ cultural victory with no worker sacrifice (demi-god? Emperor?)
- New World civ cultural victory by only worker sacrifice (no other cultural buildings allowed in that city) -- probably emperor or monarch, I would guess
Of course, there would ideally be a straight-forward game from each side (Europe and New World) so those could be compared, too. How many playable civs in each world (Old and New)?
Arathorn
(Note: I'm only listing ones that appear different from previous suggestions)
- Play as a European power going for treasure victory but you're not allowed to settle in the new world at all (presumably England and their pirates?)
- Domination as a New World power (I'm envisioning LOW difficulty level, like regent). If all goes well, you can demand cities across the Atlantic and build up an invasion force in Europe too.
- European power going for conquest seems a natural approach.
- New World civ cultural victory with no worker sacrifice (demi-god? Emperor?)
- New World civ cultural victory by only worker sacrifice (no other cultural buildings allowed in that city) -- probably emperor or monarch, I would guess
Of course, there would ideally be a straight-forward game from each side (Europe and New World) so those could be compared, too. How many playable civs in each world (Old and New)?
Arathorn
mitsho
Deity
"Old": France, England, Portugal, Spain, Dutch
New: Maya, Aztec, Inca (Iroquois: unplayable)
New: Maya, Aztec, Inca (Iroquois: unplayable)
I would say that banning war in europe for the players would make some sense for this game.
Having two or three extra cities in the old world, makes quite a bit of difference.
( It goes for granted you can racapture your lost cities should you happen to lose one to a sneak attack or some such. )
Emperor is quite easy for a european power, as long as you keep out of any major tussles. ( You are so much better at founding colonies, rushing the needed buildings in them. )
I have not played all the natives, but a wonderbuilding Incan nation with mainly bought slaves had not much trouble winning on emperor. ( Incans have a much better shield start than the other native tribes. )
Looking at the LK64/63 games, would make it seem as if it is not very hard to get slaves enough as Mayans. Increased difficulty might even make it easier, as you get more opportunities to get slaves. ( You might of course get overrun..... )
Of the europeans, the Dutch seems to be the weakest.
Grimjack
Having two or three extra cities in the old world, makes quite a bit of difference.
( It goes for granted you can racapture your lost cities should you happen to lose one to a sneak attack or some such. )
Emperor is quite easy for a european power, as long as you keep out of any major tussles. ( You are so much better at founding colonies, rushing the needed buildings in them. )
I have not played all the natives, but a wonderbuilding Incan nation with mainly bought slaves had not much trouble winning on emperor. ( Incans have a much better shield start than the other native tribes. )
Looking at the LK64/63 games, would make it seem as if it is not very hard to get slaves enough as Mayans. Increased difficulty might even make it easier, as you get more opportunities to get slaves. ( You might of course get overrun..... )
Of the europeans, the Dutch seems to be the weakest.
Grimjack
Charis
Realms Beyond
I have something I think may be of interest to many of my SG comrades, so at the risk of going off-topic, may I invite lurkers and RBCiv players to consider playing a new "Master of Orion" tournament (Yes, the original MOO!)
Even if you've never played before (and even if you don't yet have the game), check out this list of the "Top Ten Reasons for Newbies to give MOO a try"
Top Ten reasons to give the new Realms Beyond Orion a try
Think about it, and don't let never having played the game before stop you - I'm not going to!
Apologies in advance for promoting an outside event -
- it's something I do about every 900 posts, so don't worry about me spamming about this or other RB events - I just think there are many here who would never visit a MOO forum who would actually be interested in this. Thanks.
Charis
Even if you've never played before (and even if you don't yet have the game), check out this list of the "Top Ten Reasons for Newbies to give MOO a try"
Top Ten reasons to give the new Realms Beyond Orion a try
Think about it, and don't let never having played the game before stop you - I'm not going to!
Apologies in advance for promoting an outside event -
- it's something I do about every 900 posts, so don't worry about me spamming about this or other RB events - I just think there are many here who would never visit a MOO forum who would actually be interested in this. Thanks.Charis
Its been a while since the last discussion about the next age of Conquests. Now that almost all (all but the Fatimids, Burgundians, and Byzantines) of the Middle Ages SGs have finished, we should probably begin discussion the civs for the next age of SGs.
DeceasedHorse
Prince
As previously mentioned, this conquest is rather easy-the AI is not very competant with the reverse capture the flag treasure units. I also agree that banning offensive war in Europe should be strongly considered for the "standard" SG's; ones with conquest or domnination as an objective are obviously exempt. I was thinking of a possible variant using the English (The Egalatarian English, if we want to stick with the alliteration theme): The English decide to outlaw slavery a few hundered years early and the royal navy seeks to enforce the edict. Obviously this means not buying workers. Captured workers could be returned to their homeland at the end of a war, or 'resettled' (merged with a city) if their original civ ceases to exist. I'm still thinking about how to apply this on a larger scale though; perhaps going to war with other civs in order to 'rescue' oppressed slaves? Just an idea I thought I'd share.
Gobi Bear
BreakAway Games
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2003
- Messages
- 222
Here is a consolidated list of some of my ideas on how to play Age of Discovery for maximum "style points", at least from a European point-of-view. Similar ideas could be developed for the native American civs too.
ENGLAND
Background: In 1527, Henry VIII realized Katherine of Aragon was not going to produce a male heir and a dark-haired young lady at his court (Anne Boleyn) began to attract his interest. He proceeded to ask Pope Clement VII for an annulment of his marriage to Katherine. This "divorce question" was to lead England down the slippery slope to Protestantism. Once Henry established the king as the supreme head of the Church of England (in direct defiance of the Pope), the transition to Protestantism developed quickly.
Requirements:
1. May not research Protestantism until 1527. Starting in 1527, they must research Protestantism before any other tech. Once researched, they must immediately switch to a Protestant Monarchy. Once in that government, they must start building the Luther's Theses wonder.
2. Must eliminate all foreign (French) presence in the British Islands to win.
3. One-half of the treasure units returned home must come from piracy.
NETHERLANDS
Background: The Netherlands were a Spanish province until their revolt began in 1568. They then fought the Spanish for 80 years until 1648. Not until the end of the Thirty Year's War in 1648 did they fully earn their independence.
Requirements:
1. Must declare war on Spain and stay at war with them for 80 turns before the game ends. Once 80 turns of war have elapsed, they can be considered independent and ignore this rule.
SPAIN
Background: Spain conquered the Aztecs, Inca, and then Maya during this period.
Requirements:
1. Three of the four Native American civs need to be wiped off the map for the Spanish to be able to declare a victory.
PORTUGAL
Background: In 1494, the Spanish and Portuguese signed the Treaty of Tordesillas at the urging of Pope Alexander VI. To avoid wars, this agreement drew a line 100 leagues west of the Cape Verde islands. The Portuguese gained control of all territories east of the line; the Spanish everything to the west.
Requirements:
1. The Portuguese may not settle anywhere except Africa and modern-day Brazil. If they try to settle outside these areas, they must declare war on Spain and stay at war with Spain for the rest of the game. Note that the other AIs may settle in Africa or Brazil too ... we can't easily prevent that, so the Portuguese player just has to lump it in this case.
FRANCE
Background: Francis I ruled France from 1515 to 1547. Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor and ruler of Spain was his fierce ally. Francis was also a devoted patron of the arts and started the construction of numerous French chateaux, including Versailles.
Requirements:
1. France must spent 50% of the turns from 1515 to 1547 at war with Spain.
2. France must win by a civilization-wide cultural victory (20000). I'm not exactly sure how tough this would be. Anyone have a save with a French win so we can see what their final culture value was?
ENGLAND
Background: In 1527, Henry VIII realized Katherine of Aragon was not going to produce a male heir and a dark-haired young lady at his court (Anne Boleyn) began to attract his interest. He proceeded to ask Pope Clement VII for an annulment of his marriage to Katherine. This "divorce question" was to lead England down the slippery slope to Protestantism. Once Henry established the king as the supreme head of the Church of England (in direct defiance of the Pope), the transition to Protestantism developed quickly.
Requirements:
1. May not research Protestantism until 1527. Starting in 1527, they must research Protestantism before any other tech. Once researched, they must immediately switch to a Protestant Monarchy. Once in that government, they must start building the Luther's Theses wonder.
2. Must eliminate all foreign (French) presence in the British Islands to win.
3. One-half of the treasure units returned home must come from piracy.
NETHERLANDS
Background: The Netherlands were a Spanish province until their revolt began in 1568. They then fought the Spanish for 80 years until 1648. Not until the end of the Thirty Year's War in 1648 did they fully earn their independence.
Requirements:
1. Must declare war on Spain and stay at war with them for 80 turns before the game ends. Once 80 turns of war have elapsed, they can be considered independent and ignore this rule.
SPAIN
Background: Spain conquered the Aztecs, Inca, and then Maya during this period.
Requirements:
1. Three of the four Native American civs need to be wiped off the map for the Spanish to be able to declare a victory.
PORTUGAL
Background: In 1494, the Spanish and Portuguese signed the Treaty of Tordesillas at the urging of Pope Alexander VI. To avoid wars, this agreement drew a line 100 leagues west of the Cape Verde islands. The Portuguese gained control of all territories east of the line; the Spanish everything to the west.
Requirements:
1. The Portuguese may not settle anywhere except Africa and modern-day Brazil. If they try to settle outside these areas, they must declare war on Spain and stay at war with Spain for the rest of the game. Note that the other AIs may settle in Africa or Brazil too ... we can't easily prevent that, so the Portuguese player just has to lump it in this case.
FRANCE
Background: Francis I ruled France from 1515 to 1547. Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor and ruler of Spain was his fierce ally. Francis was also a devoted patron of the arts and started the construction of numerous French chateaux, including Versailles.
Requirements:
1. France must spent 50% of the turns from 1515 to 1547 at war with Spain.
2. France must win by a civilization-wide cultural victory (20000). I'm not exactly sure how tough this would be. Anyone have a save with a French win so we can see what their final culture value was?
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
My france win on monarchy had about 5000 civwide culture. Of course this was many moons ago. A recent spanish game had 10,000 culture but then hit the VP limit as I wiped off all the other Euro civs in an attempt to get a Euro one city culture. I was in the culture lead over the Americas and could have won but eliminating the other civs gave too many VP's. A euro culture win is possible, but they should end up holding all of europe to maximize productivity. An English game with culture in the New World failed miserably just due to the extra corruption (8000 culture). All of these games were played on Monarch by myself. I have played Portugal on Emporer and been the only Euro in Africa, and developed a nice empire there. I have won with all of the civs but the mayans, and that is only due to a busy thesis schedule, and some Middle Ages games.
The variants suggest are very agreeable, but I believe the following changes should be considered. 1. France is allowed to win by one city culture. During this early era, Paris was the center for culture in Western Europe. 2. Euro war is allowed including complete extermination (only above Emporer level). 3. The bitter French/English conflicts should be emphasised, as well as the Spanish Armada. (Spain must after dominating the New World, attempt to punish the English dogs (1588 if my memory serves me).) Just a few thoughts. Feedback is welcome
The variants suggest are very agreeable, but I believe the following changes should be considered. 1. France is allowed to win by one city culture. During this early era, Paris was the center for culture in Western Europe. 2. Euro war is allowed including complete extermination (only above Emporer level). 3. The bitter French/English conflicts should be emphasised, as well as the Spanish Armada. (Spain must after dominating the New World, attempt to punish the English dogs (1588 if my memory serves me).) Just a few thoughts. Feedback is welcome
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
After some more playing around with this scenario, I have determined that on Emporer level, all the civs are winable. The European Civs have almost no trouble at all hitting the VP limit, even with minimal treasure retreival. Translation, I tried for cultrual victories, but my strategy required using cultural messangers for my European neighbors. I generated enough VP just from conquest, tech, wonders and unit kills. A real challenge would then be to get a Euro cultural victory of any kind on Emporer+ level. Of the MesoAmerican civs, the Mayans are by far the most difficult. Their capital can be amphib assaulted, and has no real shield production potential, (has a real hard time hitting 15 spt, have to get it to size 9). They are also hemmed in by rival civs with quick moving UU. The Aztecs and Inca are much easier to play and can win civwide culture due to their availible space, and the availiblity of horses to make knights. I think that Aztecs on Demi-god would be a good challenging SG, and Maya on Emporer would also be quite challenging. An easier game for moderate players would be Inca on Emporer. All of these could be knocked down a level for civwide victory conditions.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
T-hawk
Transcend
what civ should we play on Sid? 
I'm posting a straw man set of civs. This is merely to help Charis in his brainstorming/decision-making. If it turns out close to the final, cool. If not, cool.
European Civs
If your capital moves from Europe, you lose. For all European civs.
Fancy French -- Emperor
Must win by culture
Passive rules against Europe (e.g. can pillage but no attacking/razing cities)
Elegant English -- Emperor
Straight-forward -- no extra rules. Easiest of the games.
Painful Portugal -- Sid
Passive in Europe
Sneaking (Stealing) Spanish -- Deity
Passive in Europe
Not allowed to build any of the treasure-producing buildings
Must win by VPs
Half of all VPs must come from treasures (e.g. PIRACY!)
Daring Dutch -- Emperor
Goal is conquest win
New World American Civs
Manly Mayans -- Regeant
Goal is domination win
Irreligious Incans -- Monarch
May not sacrifice workers
Goal is single-city culture victory
Average Aztecs -- Deity
Straight-forward -- another fairly "normal" one
Just codifying some suggestions to try to help out our leerless feeder (one of my favorite Spoonerisms).
Arathorn
European Civs
If your capital moves from Europe, you lose. For all European civs.
Fancy French -- Emperor
Must win by culture
Passive rules against Europe (e.g. can pillage but no attacking/razing cities)
Elegant English -- Emperor
Straight-forward -- no extra rules. Easiest of the games.
Painful Portugal -- Sid
Passive in Europe
Sneaking (Stealing) Spanish -- Deity
Passive in Europe
Not allowed to build any of the treasure-producing buildings
Must win by VPs
Half of all VPs must come from treasures (e.g. PIRACY!)
Daring Dutch -- Emperor
Goal is conquest win
New World American Civs
Manly Mayans -- Regeant
Goal is domination win
Irreligious Incans -- Monarch
May not sacrifice workers
Goal is single-city culture victory
Average Aztecs -- Deity
Straight-forward -- another fairly "normal" one
Just codifying some suggestions to try to help out our leerless feeder (one of my favorite Spoonerisms).
Arathorn
Charis
Realms Beyond
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions, Gobi Bear and romethemonk!
I'm almost set to kickoff -- thanks for your patience. I've also got a few PM's from players with thoughts, which I've encouraged to post here as well
Charis
I'm almost set to kickoff -- thanks for your patience. I've also got a few PM's from players with thoughts, which I've encouraged to post here as well
Charis
Charis
Realms Beyond
Just after my last post, I saw Arathorns -- nice list
(Eep, I'm a bottom feeder?!)
Simply because there are 19 posts on this page, I'm going to comment here (and setup top of page for the signup post) rather than edit the one I just made.
We're in tune on the French - Emperor - Culture setup, as well as on the Portuguese Sids - good!
I also like the one game pushes piracy idea, but the Spanish new world conquest is also good, making England a great choice for the pirates.
> Manly Mayans -- Regeant
> Goal is domination win
Wow! Now that's different! If folks think this is remotely do-able, it would be fun to try.
EDIT - LKendter pointed out that domination is not enabled
> Irreligious Incans -- Monarch
> May not sacrifice workers
> Goal is single-city culture victory
I like this alot too - subject to feasibility.
More input/thoughts welcome!
About to post the sign-up notice...
Charis
(Eep, I'm a bottom feeder?!)
Simply because there are 19 posts on this page, I'm going to comment here (and setup top of page for the signup post) rather than edit the one I just made.
We're in tune on the French - Emperor - Culture setup, as well as on the Portuguese Sids - good!
I also like the one game pushes piracy idea, but the Spanish new world conquest is also good, making England a great choice for the pirates.
> Manly Mayans -- Regeant
> Goal is domination win
Wow! Now that's different! If folks think this is remotely do-able, it would be fun to try.
EDIT - LKendter pointed out that domination is not enabled
> Irreligious Incans -- Monarch
> May not sacrifice workers
> Goal is single-city culture victory
I like this alot too - subject to feasibility.
More input/thoughts welcome!
About to post the sign-up notice...
Charis
Charis
Realms Beyond
Prelude to the Age of Discovery
It's time to say goodbye to Rome (Rising, Falling, and Holy) and open ourselves
up to a brave new world! In other words, the C3C Age of Discovery Scenario.
Scenario Info
It's the year 1490 AD. New powers are beginning to emerge on the Iberian penninsula.
What lands and riches will be uncovered in this Age of Discovery?!
A modified tech tree is used including a variety of naval units, plantations and
some elements of the Reformation. Victory is by VP Scoring (35,000) or culture win
(4K in one city, or 20K whole civ). There are eight different country choices,
5 in Europe and 3 in America. It also uses the "Capture the Princess" mechanism, where
the princess is treature from the New World which must be returned back home for 1000 VP.
The time limit is 150 game turns, so that means 3-5 player turns each!
Europe:
France (King Francis) - Comm/Indus - 6 city (633332) +1 settler- UU Musketeer 3.5.1 (60, amph)
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorer, 3 workers.
Spain (Queen Isabella) - Rel/Sea - 6 cities (644321)+ 1settler- UU Conquistador 3.2.2 ATAR (70,
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 Conquistador, 3 workers. amphib)
Dutch (King William) - Agri/Sea - 3 cities (974) + 1settler - UU Swiss Merc 3.4.1 (50)
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorerer, 3 workers.
Portugal (Prince Henry) - Rel/Sea - 6 cities (853111) +1settler - No UU, but start in GA
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 3 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorere, 1 worker.
Portugal has a unique advantage - on turn 1 they start with Dias' voyage which kicks
off their Golden Age, gives +1 ship move, and one colonist per 8 turns.
England (Queen Eliz) - Comm/Sea - 5 cities (84332) +1set- UU Elizabethan Sea Dog 4.3.8 (30,
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorere, 3 workers. enslave, blitz)
America: (Note, these *can* use sacrificed workers for culture, with UU or with QB's)
Aztecs (Chief Montezuma) - Agri/Mil - 1 city (3) +1set - UU Jagged Warrior 1.1.2 (10, enslave)
4 jaggies, 1 worker (plus the settler). Capital is pretty decked out! 21 culture/turn
Incans (SI Atahualpa) - Agri/Ind- 1 city(3)+1set - UU Chasqui Scout 1.1.1 ATAR (30, enslave)
4 Chasqui, 1 worker (plus the settler)
Mayans (GI Smoke Jaguar) - Agri/Indus - 1 city(3)+1set - UU Javelin Thrower 2.2.1 (30, enslave)
4 jaggies, 1 worker (plus the settler).
Starts: Mayans have jungle, Aztecs mtns, Incans combo hill,mtn,jungle, far SE of other two.
* This scenario only, Caravels *can* cross the ocean!
* Musketmen (3.4.1) and musketeers (3.5.1) have amphibious assault!
* Pikes don't need iron. Man-O-War avail to all civs.
* Missionaries (3.1.2, 30) are invis, see invis, can enslave spears, warriors & American UU's
* Colonists are like settlers but pop 1, 20 shields, available with Printing Press
* Queztal Bowman (3.1.1), any native civ, can enslave
* In Europe, Spain and Portugal prefer Catholicism, England/Dutch Protestant, French both.
* The other civ, non-playable, is the Iroquiois with Mounted Warriors
* Magellan's isn't +move, it's like a production dock and spits out one frigate per 5 turns
* Two key govts. Europe all starts in Catholic Monarchy. Protestant Monarchy will
reduce corruption and increase worker efficiency, but increase war weariness.
Each allows a different special building (Cath:Jesuit college, a normal bldg with
+50% sci and produces missionaries, Prot:Luther's 95 theses great wonder+2 happy continent)
* Min-sci rate is 75 turns, not very effective.
* There are 3 New World Great Wonders, Temple of Kukulcan (+3happy,Leo's), the Moon (ToE),
and the Sun (BattlefieldMed+Suffrage)
* The Mayans start next to Aztecs and have 2.2.1 units. They could wipe out the Aztecs
within the first player turn, but would have a slowed tech pace and far less enslaved
workers and hence culture.
Feedback from other Players
- We've gotten several novel ideas and feedback points from players.
- Gobi Bear (designer of the scenario!) had some interesting suggestions for
adding historically appropriate variant conditions for a few of the games.
See his post above for more info, but in summary...
_ England : ASAP revolt to Protestant Monarchy; eliminate French on their soil; piracy emphasis
_ Netherlands: Declares war on Spain which is to last for 80 turns
_ Spain: Must conquer (eliminate) three of the four american civs
_ Portugal: Settles only Brazil and Africa - and goes to war with any who dare go there
_ France: Civ-wide cultural win (!) and also an extended war with Spain
Romethemonk had difficulty going for a European cultural win, mostly due to VP limitations.
Quite likely only a low difficulty setting would have a real chance for culture win.
"A real challenge would then be to get a Euro cultural victory of any kind on Emporer+ level."
"Of the MesoAmerican civs, the Mayans are by far the most difficult."
"I think that Aztecs on Demi-god would be a good challenging SG, and Maya on Emporer [too]"
"All of these could be knocked down a level for civwide victory conditions."
And to T-Hawk's expected question of which civ to try Sid with, Gobi's answer was Portugal
Discussion Items
- Any further comments (not spoilers) from those who've played this scenario before?
Do the American civs *have* to sacrifice to win? How fast/slow does this scenario run?
- I see no games reported playing AoD, but several folks have mentioned it's probably the
second easiest civ after Mesopotamia (then again, they're trying Monarch level)
Comments
- With turn limit of 150 and a guess that on the lvls we'll play the AI will VP win around
turn 100 (??), the American civs would have about 2000-3000 culture, not enough for
a victory. At 40 culture per sac-altar worker-slave, about 25-50 would help make it up.
- For *most* games, unless there is a thematic reason to do so, I have the impression that
wars in Europe would make things too easy for the player, and we may want to limit this.
- No palace jumping. Moving it to the new world removes all sense of challenge.
- My own take on AoD... I definitely like one game on Sid, a tough game going for a Euro
culture win, a non-sacrifice culture win in the New World (*if* this is remotely possible),
A high difficulty Mayan game, one game much easier than the others to target newer players,
and inclusion of at least a couple of the historically themed games. That would make for
an initial thought of: Portugal Sid, Mayan Deity, France Emperor Cultural goal
(perhaps plus the historical Spain war), Demigod English historical theme, DG Spanish
historical New World conquest, a Netherland game of some kind - possibly Open,
a variant Iroquois (modded) game, a Monarchy Incans game, and an Open SG with Aztecs.
That's just my initial thought, but the game list will be decided by player signups!
EDIT - In fact, Arathorn, just posted a nice list. After reading that, I would modify
the list here as: non-sacrifice city-culture Incans (Mayan domination would be nice, but it's not enabled).
Sign-ups
With a very reasonable 8 (9?!) choices and some key distinctions between civs in the same
area, we would do well to fully cover the scenario, with 8 teams of 4-5 players each.
Players may sign up for two, but not more unless a team ends up short. We may well run
one of each as OPEN unless the signups are very full. Actually, someone mentioned the idea
of modding the conquest to play as the Iroquois, so I hope he or someone else chimes in
with more information or a plan for doing a Iroquois game. We'll try to have a good mix
of difficulty and approach, including one Sid, one OCC, and one European conquest.
For sign-ups, please indicate whether you have a preference for Europe/American flavor,
and/or a specific civ, as well as a difficulty *range*. If you have a preference in your
sign up for a game with/without a Gobi-esque historical flavor, mention that too!
As it turns out, the RBC13 series has recently ended, so we're good to go very soon!
Feedback, questions, and sign-ups are welcome! Let the Age of Discovery begin!
Charis
EDIT - Wow, strong initial response! I'm glad to see you guys are well rested and ready to roll!
Version we'll be using will be 1.15 unless there's compelling reason to switch.
It's time to say goodbye to Rome (Rising, Falling, and Holy) and open ourselves
up to a brave new world! In other words, the C3C Age of Discovery Scenario.
Scenario Info
It's the year 1490 AD. New powers are beginning to emerge on the Iberian penninsula.
What lands and riches will be uncovered in this Age of Discovery?!
A modified tech tree is used including a variety of naval units, plantations and
some elements of the Reformation. Victory is by VP Scoring (35,000) or culture win
(4K in one city, or 20K whole civ). There are eight different country choices,
5 in Europe and 3 in America. It also uses the "Capture the Princess" mechanism, where
the princess is treature from the New World which must be returned back home for 1000 VP.
The time limit is 150 game turns, so that means 3-5 player turns each!
Europe:
France (King Francis) - Comm/Indus - 6 city (633332) +1 settler- UU Musketeer 3.5.1 (60, amph)
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorer, 3 workers.
Spain (Queen Isabella) - Rel/Sea - 6 cities (644321)+ 1settler- UU Conquistador 3.2.2 ATAR (70,
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 Conquistador, 3 workers. amphib)
Dutch (King William) - Agri/Sea - 3 cities (974) + 1settler - UU Swiss Merc 3.4.1 (50)
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorerer, 3 workers.
Portugal (Prince Henry) - Rel/Sea - 6 cities (853111) +1settler - No UU, but start in GA
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 3 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorere, 1 worker.
Portugal has a unique advantage - on turn 1 they start with Dias' voyage which kicks
off their Golden Age, gives +1 ship move, and one colonist per 8 turns.
England (Queen Eliz) - Comm/Sea - 5 cities (84332) +1set- UU Elizabethan Sea Dog 4.3.8 (30,
7 pikes, 1 MDI, 1 longbow, 4 caravels, 1 trebuchet, 1 explorere, 3 workers. enslave, blitz)
America: (Note, these *can* use sacrificed workers for culture, with UU or with QB's)
Aztecs (Chief Montezuma) - Agri/Mil - 1 city (3) +1set - UU Jagged Warrior 1.1.2 (10, enslave)
4 jaggies, 1 worker (plus the settler). Capital is pretty decked out! 21 culture/turn
Incans (SI Atahualpa) - Agri/Ind- 1 city(3)+1set - UU Chasqui Scout 1.1.1 ATAR (30, enslave)
4 Chasqui, 1 worker (plus the settler)
Mayans (GI Smoke Jaguar) - Agri/Indus - 1 city(3)+1set - UU Javelin Thrower 2.2.1 (30, enslave)
4 jaggies, 1 worker (plus the settler).
Starts: Mayans have jungle, Aztecs mtns, Incans combo hill,mtn,jungle, far SE of other two.
* This scenario only, Caravels *can* cross the ocean!
* Musketmen (3.4.1) and musketeers (3.5.1) have amphibious assault!
* Pikes don't need iron. Man-O-War avail to all civs.
* Missionaries (3.1.2, 30) are invis, see invis, can enslave spears, warriors & American UU's
* Colonists are like settlers but pop 1, 20 shields, available with Printing Press
* Queztal Bowman (3.1.1), any native civ, can enslave
* In Europe, Spain and Portugal prefer Catholicism, England/Dutch Protestant, French both.
* The other civ, non-playable, is the Iroquiois with Mounted Warriors
* Magellan's isn't +move, it's like a production dock and spits out one frigate per 5 turns
* Two key govts. Europe all starts in Catholic Monarchy. Protestant Monarchy will
reduce corruption and increase worker efficiency, but increase war weariness.
Each allows a different special building (Cath:Jesuit college, a normal bldg with
+50% sci and produces missionaries, Prot:Luther's 95 theses great wonder+2 happy continent)
* Min-sci rate is 75 turns, not very effective.
* There are 3 New World Great Wonders, Temple of Kukulcan (+3happy,Leo's), the Moon (ToE),
and the Sun (BattlefieldMed+Suffrage)
* The Mayans start next to Aztecs and have 2.2.1 units. They could wipe out the Aztecs
within the first player turn, but would have a slowed tech pace and far less enslaved
workers and hence culture.
Feedback from other Players
- We've gotten several novel ideas and feedback points from players.
- Gobi Bear (designer of the scenario!) had some interesting suggestions for
adding historically appropriate variant conditions for a few of the games.
See his post above for more info, but in summary...
_ England : ASAP revolt to Protestant Monarchy; eliminate French on their soil; piracy emphasis
_ Netherlands: Declares war on Spain which is to last for 80 turns
_ Spain: Must conquer (eliminate) three of the four american civs
_ Portugal: Settles only Brazil and Africa - and goes to war with any who dare go there
_ France: Civ-wide cultural win (!) and also an extended war with Spain
Romethemonk had difficulty going for a European cultural win, mostly due to VP limitations.
Quite likely only a low difficulty setting would have a real chance for culture win.
"A real challenge would then be to get a Euro cultural victory of any kind on Emporer+ level."
"Of the MesoAmerican civs, the Mayans are by far the most difficult."
"I think that Aztecs on Demi-god would be a good challenging SG, and Maya on Emporer [too]"
"All of these could be knocked down a level for civwide victory conditions."
And to T-Hawk's expected question of which civ to try Sid with, Gobi's answer was Portugal
Discussion Items
- Any further comments (not spoilers) from those who've played this scenario before?
Do the American civs *have* to sacrifice to win? How fast/slow does this scenario run?
- I see no games reported playing AoD, but several folks have mentioned it's probably the
second easiest civ after Mesopotamia (then again, they're trying Monarch level)
Comments
- With turn limit of 150 and a guess that on the lvls we'll play the AI will VP win around
turn 100 (??), the American civs would have about 2000-3000 culture, not enough for
a victory. At 40 culture per sac-altar worker-slave, about 25-50 would help make it up.
- For *most* games, unless there is a thematic reason to do so, I have the impression that
wars in Europe would make things too easy for the player, and we may want to limit this.
- No palace jumping. Moving it to the new world removes all sense of challenge.
- My own take on AoD... I definitely like one game on Sid, a tough game going for a Euro
culture win, a non-sacrifice culture win in the New World (*if* this is remotely possible),
A high difficulty Mayan game, one game much easier than the others to target newer players,
and inclusion of at least a couple of the historically themed games. That would make for
an initial thought of: Portugal Sid, Mayan Deity, France Emperor Cultural goal
(perhaps plus the historical Spain war), Demigod English historical theme, DG Spanish
historical New World conquest, a Netherland game of some kind - possibly Open,
a variant Iroquois (modded) game, a Monarchy Incans game, and an Open SG with Aztecs.
That's just my initial thought, but the game list will be decided by player signups!
EDIT - In fact, Arathorn, just posted a nice list. After reading that, I would modify
the list here as: non-sacrifice city-culture Incans (Mayan domination would be nice, but it's not enabled).
Sign-ups
With a very reasonable 8 (9?!) choices and some key distinctions between civs in the same
area, we would do well to fully cover the scenario, with 8 teams of 4-5 players each.
Players may sign up for two, but not more unless a team ends up short. We may well run
one of each as OPEN unless the signups are very full. Actually, someone mentioned the idea
of modding the conquest to play as the Iroquois, so I hope he or someone else chimes in
with more information or a plan for doing a Iroquois game. We'll try to have a good mix
of difficulty and approach, including one Sid, one OCC, and one European conquest.
For sign-ups, please indicate whether you have a preference for Europe/American flavor,
and/or a specific civ, as well as a difficulty *range*. If you have a preference in your
sign up for a game with/without a Gobi-esque historical flavor, mention that too!
As it turns out, the RBC13 series has recently ended, so we're good to go very soon!
Feedback, questions, and sign-ups are welcome! Let the Age of Discovery begin!
Charis
EDIT - Wow, strong initial response! I'm glad to see you guys are well rested and ready to roll!
Version we'll be using will be 1.15 unless there's compelling reason to switch.
Aggie
Deity
I'm interested in two 'difficult' or 'brutal' games. One with an European civ and one with an American civ. If possible 
