RBE DSG1 - The Uncanny X-Men

Sirian: Glad to see you approved of the rushing in our FP city! Thought it would go over well as an investment now that will pay big dividends in the future. We cannot maintain the WLTKD in Hamadan without raising the luxury tax obscenely high, so I clicked next turn to see what kind of production we'll get without it. Turns out it will still pull 6 shields/turn, and complete in 33 turns instead of 29. Not too shabby! :D Without the marketplace, I couldn't have gotten it higher than 4 shields/turn, and consequently 50 turns to build the FP. I think we can all agree that the 350g for a marketplace rush is worth a FP up 17 turns earlier, right? :)

Exsanguination: In a theoretically perfect game, we would probably want the FP placed a little bit further away then Hamadan. Deity games are not played in a theoretical realm though, and we need to make the most of what we have. We're not going to be fighting anyone anytime soon if we can avoid it, and the longer we put off building our FP, the less use we will get out of it in the game. What use is it to put it in the perfect spot if we can't reach that perfect spot until 1750AD? A good early spot for it beats a "perfect" later spot every single time. Hamadan is just that: a good spot that will greatly improve our southern cities and complete before we even get out of the middle ages. Not to mention the fact that if we were to build it any further away we would have to rush it with a leader, and only luck determines if we will get one of them. As you yourself were thinking in your post, trust us on this one: it's the best move. ;)
 
Sullla - I agre entirely. I just thought you all were probably gonna be running over someone with knights/immortals (or longbowman, just for Sirian ;)). If you're gonna wait for the industrial age, I see your logic.

Pardon me for budding in, I don't mean to turn this into a TDG or a lesson for me, but here is another query: why wait until the industrial ages for war? Isn't that kind of late to try and conquer 66% of the world?
 
Originally posted by Exsanguination
Pardon me for budding in, I don't mean to turn this into a TDG or a lesson for me, but here is another query: why wait until the industrial ages for war? Isn't that kind of late to try and conquer 66% of the world?

This IS a Deity game after all. We are pretty good players, but we're not suicidal here! :lol: The longer a Deity game goes on, the greater the advantage to the player. At this point, we are hopelessly outclassed in units, city improvements, culture, population, etc. But as time goes on and we construct more and more city improvements, create more tile improvements with workers, build our own units, etc. those AI advantages start to disappear. The advantage really goes to the player once railroads are discovered, since the AI cannot deal with unlimited movement nearly as competently as a human can. Sooner or later, we will be going out and attacking the other civs. But we will not be doing that until we have a rock-solid core of cities that are fully prepared to deal with all-out warfare. If you open up our save game, you'll see that we are not nearly there yet. :) And don't forget, the AI civs are approaching the Industrial Age already in this game. If this were the pre-patch version, they would have been there long ago. It will take us until the Industrial Age just to build up our cities enough to bear the strain of prolonged warfare. And no, we are nowhere even remotely ready for warfare at this point! (but give it time, we will make them all pay eventually...)
 
(0) 250AD Hmmm. Ergili, our most-vulnerable-to-flip city, is building a worker? I switch it to cathedral, and maximum growth (high population does reduce flip chance, right?) Our lone scientist moves to Istakhr.

I ponder sending a settler to plant a city right in the corner between New Calcutta and New Paris, just to apply flip pressure to those cities. But I think the cash we'd need to rush cultural buildings there would be better spent elsewhere. Like at Ergili :)

Entertainers at Pasargadae and Sardis retrained as tax collectors.

An Indian jumbo out of New Calcutta tramples all over our cornfields.

Rome and France ally against the Iroquois.

(2) 270AD Skannayutenate falls to French warriors.

(3) 280AD Peaceful fishing village of Behistun founded.

(4) 290AD We have spices available to trade. Trade Spices+Horses+WM+34gpt to Japan for Education. I figure aiding Japan in their war with practically everyone can only benefit us :)

(5) 300AD Hamadan expands to size 9. Entertainment tax has to go to 20%, but we get the FP 6 turns earlier :)

Japan and Rome sign a peace treaty.

(6) 310AD Rush cathedral in Ergili.

(7) 320AD Rome wants an alliance vs Iroquois. Ummm. Look at all those Iroquois troops passing through our territory around Arbela. No thanks, Caesar.

Aztecs and Iroquois ally vs France.

(8) 330AD Our wise man has learned the secrets of Engineering. Yay!

(9) 340AD Trade Silks+WM+30gpt to Iroquois for Invention. Trade Silks+RoP+WM+155g+36gpt to Babylon for Gunpowder. I see two sources of saltpeter, one near the peaceful fishing village of Behistun, and one in the desert on our western coastline.

India and Rome ally vs Iroquois.

Missed Bampur expanding and it went into unrest. Ack.

Copernicus and Bach have started building universities and cathedrals all over the place :)

Built a few pikemen in Persepolis, but mostly infrastructure (granaries, marketplaces, courthouses).

Edit: our ETA for the FP is still 24 turns to go. Building Behistun increased corruption at Hamadan, and lost us one shield/turn.

350AD
 
RBE1-350AD.jpg
 
Just to toss this into the mix....without being able to see the save..how close to death is Japan?.If its relativly soon..isn't trading them horses a BAD IDEA (tm) given what happened to Sulla in his Epic game?..Just making sure you guys are aware of it
 
I suppose Behistun should have waited. :eek: Ah well, my bad. Probably "only" cost us a few hundred gold, a few dozens shields, and ~1% of our southern growth curve, give or take. I did think about corruption, but each new city coreward on a large map takes less of a toll than smaller maps, and I rolled craps on this one. :lol:

After all the other things I called right, though, we can afford this margin of error. :)


- Sirian
 
Originally posted by Ziggy
Just to toss this into the mix....without being able to see the save..how close to death is Japan?.If its relativly soon..isn't trading them horses a BAD IDEA (tm) given what happened to Sulla in his Epic game?..Just making sure you guys are aware of it

From what I could see on my turn, Japan definitely had 20 turns of fight left in them. They would have to cave pretty fast to die before that deal runs out (though it is theoretically possible).
 
well thats good to hear..just wanted to make sure you guys knew/remembered it...though i'm guessing Sulla for one won't forget anytime soon! :)

As a followup Q though...what happens if the trade route itself goes?.even if the civ itself isn't killed off entirely......I'm probly just paranoid but I play such a large trading game that anything that hurts my rep is bad bad bad...does anyone know bout this? (sorry to hijack your game...lol)
 
(0) 350AD: I see that the Indians have some excess furs to trade. They will sell them to us for 25gpt. That'll be 3 extra happy faces for cities that have a marketplace. I figure we will be able to move the happiness slider down at least one point, netting us an additional 38gpt, so I agree. We would be able to move it down another point, except for some largish cities which don't have marketplaces yet. After the change I add one entertainer, remove one entertainer, and change an entertainer to a tax collector.

(1) 360AD: Lots and lots of Iroquois knights march north through our territory. Some turn back though, to fight the Aztecs. The French want to trade territory maps with us. The Aztecs and Japan sign a peace treaty. I trade 25gpt for wines with the Iroquois, allowing us to set the slider to 0, netting us 37 extra gpt.

(2) 370AD: The Iroquois recapture their fishing village from the French, and then their military starts heading back home.

(3) 380AD: Ghandi extorts our territory map and 27 gold off us. We hook our second saltpeter source up. I trade saltpeter to the French for chemistry and 10 gold pieces per turn. Then I trade chemistry to the Aztecs for banking. Then I proceed to trade our only source of saltpeter to the Indians, in exchange for Astronomy - I figure that we can still build a perfectly good unit in knights, and the extra tech is more than worth it. We then trade chemistry and 50 gold to Babylon, in exchange for printing press and music theory. The French and Romans are now ahead Navigation, Metallurgy and Democracy, and the Indians are ahead Democracy and Metallurgy. We can get a very good price trading our only iron to the Iroquois, but I don't want to trade ourselves that short of resources.

(4) 390AD: India and Japan sign a peace treaty. Looks like Japan might not be going down as badly as everyone thought. I set some of our second-ring cities to building barracks and military units, to free up our code to sneak in banks.

(5) 400AD: A French spearman from New Paris starts wandering up through our territory. Barely a blip on the map compared to the legions of Iroquois knights trampling all over our territory though.

(6) 410AD: hmm...the Iroquois will sell us metallurgy for our only iron, and 500 gold. It would be tempting, if there was someone we could exchange metallurgy with for another tech, but there isn't.

(7) 420AD: ok, the French have physics, and no-one else has it. Further, the Iroquois have metallurgy. The babylonians have navigation. Time to try to broker a deal. The French will trade us Physics for 680 gold (the lot of it), plus 88 gold per turn. They want 680 gold + 67gpt for metallurgy, and 680 gold + 24gpt for navigation. If we can get all three of those for just the physics price, it sounds like a pretty good deal. The Iroquois want cash as well as physics. Instead I go to the babylonians, and trade them physics for navigation. Then I trade physics and navigation to the Iroquois for Metallurgy, world map, 310gold and 4gpt. Finally, I trade Physics, World Map, 310 gold and 8 gold per turn to the Indians for Military Tradition. I trade Military Tradition to the Iroquois for World Map and 60gpt. And we have achieved tech parity, besides the optional democracy, without breaking the bank too badly (the 60gpt deal with the Iroquois for military tradition is *nice*!)

In many ways, I don't think one can really claim to be at "tech parity" until one has finished paying off all the gpt deals, but we are doing pretty well.

(8) 430AD: The Iroquois continue to withdraw from our territory. The Aztecs can now offer us 3gpt for our techs (metallurgy and astronomy). Hopefully this'll get a little higher soon. Our silks deal with Ghandi (16gpt for silks) can now be renegotiated. By offering him spices, I see he has gold to spare, and decide to go for a renegotiation. We get all his gold (20) and all the gpt he can give (21). I have to put an entertainer on in Borazjan to quell unhappiness, I slightly dubiously change its production from a barracks to a temple.

(9) 440AD: The Aztecs and Romans sign a military alliance against the Iroquois. The Romans cancel our Gems for Silks+5gpt deal, and I have to renegotiate it to a Gems for Silks+13gpt deal. The Romans now have Theory of Gravity. Babylon and Japan sigh a peace treaty.

(10) 450AD: We are two techs ahead of the Aztecs and Japanese, and each of them can now offer us borderline-reasonable gpt deals for techs. The Japanese can offer 9gpt, and the Aztecs can offer 11gpt. I'm not sure whether to accept, but since we are two techs ahead each of them, my inclination is yes. I think I'll leave it up to Sirian to decide though :)

450BC
 
Sounds like a good turn from Sirp; as long as we are within a tech or two of the leaders we are doing just fine. Steam Power and rails may be coming on Sirian's turn...

Originally posted by Ziggy
As a followup Q though...what happens if the trade route itself goes?.even if the civ itself isn't killed off entirely......I'm probly just paranoid but I play such a large trading game that anything that hurts my rep is bad bad bad...does anyone know bout this? (sorry to hijack your game...lol)

Yes, your reputation can be shot by things beyond your control. I once had a game where I was sending horses to another civ when a different civ sneak-attacked me, breaking the trade route that ran through their territory. Although I was the victim of the attack, I was blamed for "breaking" the trade deal! Another example of where the reputation system is slightly askew. Nothing you can do about it though.
 
Nobody handled this one from Jaffa:

I switch it to cathedral, and maximum growth (high population does reduce flip chance, right?)

Nope. The things that cause flip chance are foreign nationals in the city, and any of the city's 21 tiles under another civ's control. The thing that reduces flip chance is garrison. The things that multiply flip chance are relative distances to capitals (the FP does not count), relative civ-wide cultures, and if it's in disorder or WLTKD.
 
Well you didn't mention "cultural memory" in the city, which is often decisive. The explanation we got of the math from Firaxis left a few ambiguities, too.

One thing is sure: if the city flips, the more of our citizens in there, the more chance it will flip back! :lol:

Next time we need to avoid the issue entirely by not founding cities at such risk under those kind of circumstances. :)


- Sirian
 
Just another question about reputation from broken deals, do you suffer a reputation hit if a city controlling a resource flips away from you? I assume you do. What about if a resource is exhausted, and you no longer have it? It seems these things are all so hard to control, yet could ruin a game :-/
 
Originally posted by Sirp
Just another question about reputation from broken deals, do you suffer a reputation hit if a city controlling a resource flips away from you? I assume you do. What about if a resource is exhausted, and you no longer have it? It seems these things are all so hard to control, yet could ruin a game :-/

I think trade deals take priority over local consumption, so you'd end up losing your own supply of the resource before any trade deals got broken. Unless you were selling your entire supply already.
 
I meant if you were selling your own supply already, which is a common thing to do on Deity. We are selling all our saltpeter right now!

It seems that it could be perhaps unwise not to deprive oneself from a resource, as it's unlikely you would lose access to two resources at once.

Also, do you suffer a reputation hit if you stop supplying a resource for which the other civ is only paying on a per-turn basis? E.g. if we sell someone saltpeter for a straight 60gpt, with nothing up front, and after 10 turns we lose our source of saltpeter, then the deal has been cut short, but we haven't really ripped them off for up front goods, and then not fulfilled our end of the bargain. If this is the case, then straight gpt/resource deals seem preferable, especially if the goods given up front are just chump change.
 
IT: Lux to 10%, brought a number of corrupt cities to WLTKD, picking up about two dozen shields as well as saving two turns on the FP. I swapped a number of cities to University or Granary, also.

Early: No deals worth mentioning. No opportunities to pick up two for one tech.

Middle: Mass AI upgrade to middle ages, and Babs sell off their free tech, cleaning up all the available cash. Having missed any hope of that for ourselves, I think we should now shoot for letting the remaining weaker AI's pass us up, and pay last civ prices for a while. The tech is outpacing our production anyway, although we should buy steam and industrialization at the first chance. Conserve our funds, prebuild and try to snag ToE. Going to be tricky. I did get one deal with Aztecs for a decent price.

Late: Dyes became available from Rome and I bought those, dropping lux back to 0. Sold them silks for cash. Horses came free too, but Japan too poor and NO WAY I'm going to enable Babylon to build cavalry and knights for a couple hundred gold. I rushed the bank in Antioch, more on that in a moment.

Overall: strengthened our cultural situation again, especially on the borders. We built a lot of universities this round. I did do some minor military bolstering, but "minor" is the word there. I didn't expect the tech to go quite this fast, guess 40% land and the rapid contacts sped things along. I also (ahem) didn't have the resources with which to BUILD more than minimal units anyway: no muskets and no cavs. I didn't want to build too many pikes, as once we have factories going (and that's getting close) cash will be more at premium than shields, and we don't need to fill our ranks with tons of units that will cost ~120g each to upgrade. We could still use more pikes and immortals, but what we really need is cavs and muskets/rifles, from the cities that can afford to build them. One good thing: as soon as we hit the next era, we should pull Nationalism for free. (Why this is more urgent than it used to be I'll leave for another discussion).

USE THE DRAFT. Peel some rifles off our less corrupt cities, the ones that DON'T need WLTKD to improve on their bad corruption, and especially ones that have high food, low shields. Don't go nuts, but do pad our military where the cities are sitting at size 12 and won't suffer from one or two unhappy faces for a bit. Keep those luxuries rolling in and keep WLTKD the situation of choice at Ergili and any cities with high corruption. Even if you have to run entertainers. Might also be a good idea to park a unit on our iron location -- as soon as we actually have a spare unit to put there. :lol:

We have three banks and two more coming. Pasargadae is on Wall Street prebuild. See if you can have the treasury at 1k or better at the time it finishes. Trust my tiles at Susa. Tarsus needs to be rearranged to max shields after it grows to 12.

There's a channel for irrigation north of Susa, just irrigate in a line and we won't have to overwrite any mines. Carry the irrigation past Silktown to those grass on the east side. Also irrigate down the coast to poor Herat, which is currently our only impoverished location. The FP is due in two turns. As we come toward Wall Street, make sure not to spend us into the dirt. Leave 1k in cash if you can, or at least a healthy gpt remainder. (More banks should help eventually). ALL our northern border cities are corrupted and will benefit greatly from running continuous WLTKD once that can be arranged. (I spent some cash to help out our spice city, make sure it remains viable, plus it got a lot of tile attention this round).

Pasargadae is the wonder city: 25 spt, and it can run Palace placeholder. By all rights we SHOULD go for Universal Suffrage if we can get it. That could be the game maker, if we can wage war and remain in Republic while all the AI's are busted to Communism or Monarchy. The cascade MUST end before Indistrial is discovered for that to happen, though, or we'll likely be locked out of everything. Once Wall Street is done, flip it right back to Palace, that gives us ~20 turns from there for the tech to come through.

If the tech moves too quickly for that, I suppose we want ToE over Suffrage, so we can be sure to get Hoover, but on the other hand I'm not so sure. The best scenerio involves both Suffrage and Hoover to us, so we have the capacity to wage war and the temperament to stick with it, but... a lot of this is out of our hands. Whatever way it goes, NOW is the time to start looking ahead and trying to target wonders. Shakespeare's could throw a wrench into things.

One more thing: we ought to get some spare settlers produced after the FP comes online, to be ready to jump on any razed locations. You have to be quick, as you all know the AI's and how they keep tons of settlers around waiting for a spot to open.

Sorry for the thin report, but it was that or wait a day to post.


RBE1 - Persia - 550AD


- Sirian


PS: Oh, and as for "we'll probably have rails on Sirian's turn" I was busting a gut laughing scoffing at that one. :) We didn't even get a TECH on Sirian's turn, and that's about in line with what I expected. Just because we CAN buy a tech doesn't always make it wise to do so. I recommend further delays, too, as we don't need to be paying @5th for techs we don't have the production base yet to do anything about. Now once the AI's have had time to figure out steam, THEN make another big push forward, but until then, think "marathon" not "sprint". Even the weak AI's are moving up, and should allow us to follow them without having to wait an unacceptable length of time.
 
(0) 550AD OK, here goes. I see the possibility to get into the Industrial Age on this turn by trading for Magnetism and then trading that for Theory of Gravity, but Sirian says to hold off on it and I'll heed his advice. We also want to get over 1000g for Wall Street, so trading away all our money and crippling our gpt probably isn't a good idea. Well, let's see what the game has in store for me this time.

(1) 560AD Busy between turns sequence. We have to renew our deal for Indian furs; the cost goes from 25gpt to 32gpt. Not a big deal, and better than having to raise the lux tax, certainly. Monty comes calling for an alliance against France - should I take it? :lol: Not a big turn as far as cities go; I mainly just move workers. The Aztecs now have Economics and will trade it to us for Military Tradition. That sounds like an OK deal to me (no fear of Aztecs attacking us, that's for sure) and since they will surely get the tech soon anyway, we may as well get a semi-useful tech like Economics for it. The value of Military Tradition as a tech is almost nil at this point (only Aztecs and Japanese lack it) so it's not like we gave away a high-priced tech either. I can now also check how much it costs to research techs ourself... Theory of Gravity can come in 9 turns at -3gpt (and that's only 40% science). Not worth it at the moment, but when we finish getting our maketplaces, banks, and universities built it will almost certainly become easier to research than buy. Something to keep in mind. I stay with research off at the moment though; we need to increase our treasury for Wall Street to give any benefit, after all.

(2) 570AD Our deal for wines ends with the Iroquois... and they are down to only 1 wine after losing cities, so they will not trade it to us. Dang, that hurts. Fortunately Persepolis completes its colossuem this turn so I can scroll through our cities and prevent any cities from going into disorder, but we lose WLTKD almost everywhere. And no one else has an extra luxury out there, so we're going to have to be content with 6 luxuries now. That really sucks. Kicking the luxury rate to 10% shaves over 60gpt off our income and does nothing in the corrupt cities anyway, so I'm going to keep it at 0% for now. Persepolis set to build some muskets for the time being, at least until we get into the Industrial Age and can start building factories and the like.

(3) 580AD Big, BIG turn here. Forbidden Palace completes and our saltpeter deals come up for renewal. We also get more than 100gpt income back again as deals end and the effects of the FP are felt. Now I can actually do something in the diplomacy screen. OK, first job is to go through newly uncorrupted cities and rearrange tiles/production. France has razed an Iroquois city that contained a saltpeter resource just beyond our borders, so I change Arbela over to a settler to send it off there next turn. A new city will also take cultural pressure off Arbela - very nice. I will not make the Ergili mistake with location this time. ;)

OK, now for the deals. I check to see who will give us a better price for saltpeter, France or India, and France's is considerably better. So I send saltpeter, WM, and 815g to France for Magnetism. Then Magnetism, silks, WM, and 34gpt to the Iroquois for Theory of Gravity. We enter the Industrial Age and get Nationalism as expected, which now has an unusually high value here in 1.29f. The AI civs do NOT all have Nationalism, so I get to make more deals. Babylon, and Rome are the only ones with it, so we've got a free tech here that we can sell @4th civ price. Nice! India will give us Medicine and Democracy for it, which will put us only 1 tech (Communism) behind the tech leaders Rome and Bablyon. I make the deal (too bad they have 0g and 0gpt; even with getting Medicine for free, we are still not getting full value on the tech). Then I trade Medicine to France and clean out all their gold: 822g in a lump sum payment. That should get us over the 1000 mark! A good round of trading overall, though I have done better. The price for Communism at 3rd civ price is outrageous (not that we want it anyway), and I think it may be more productive now to research than buy. So I'm going to take the unorthodox step of turning ON research here to go after Sanitation (15 turns, +40gpt). With both Steam Power, Industrialization, and Espionage undiscovered, the AI will almost certainly not get Sanitation before us and we will then have a tech that we can sell @2nd civ price for any new techs discovered. An interesting plan, and we'll see if it works or if I get the :smoke: applied afterwards.

(4) 590AD France completes Smith's, so the cascade is kaput. Shakespeare could screw things up, but for the moment there is no work on wonders anywhere. A quiet turn after the massive dealings I did last turn. France is also gracious with us now, by the way.

(5) 600AD When checking the diplomacy active deals, I notice that we are paying some 15gpt and silks to maintain a ROP with Bablyon. Huh? I know that's the remains of a tech deal. Instead, we sell our silks to Hammy for 15gpt and ditch the ROP. He stays polite with us. The increase in income allows us to bump the science rate up a notch; Sanitation due in 10turns at +12gpt.

(6) 610AD Free Artistry must have just been discovered, because the Babylonians and Romans start work on Shakespeare's. This could pose a problem... We build our first rifle in Persepolis and order up another. This reminds me that we can now draft (silly me) and we institute it in a few cities. Not too many (because we are only pulling +10gpt until we get Wall Street), but here are the cities: Bactra, Sidon, Hamadan, Antioch. A lot of good sites for drafting either did not have the necessary population or were too close to being unhappy as it was. When marketplaces finish soon, it should be possible to draft in other cities. I also rarely use the draft and am not too familiar with it, so perhaps these were not the best locations. I'm sure Sirian will tell me if they were not! :)

(7) 620AD The French and Indians also start Shakespeare. Since no one has discovered Stem Power yet, we may - may - be safe here. Another possibility is to have Pasargadae build Shakespeare's to break the cascade. Or let me rephrase that - Babylon and Rome now have Steam Power this turn. I'll probably hold off on Wall Street to let the team decide if we want to switch Pasargadae to Shakeapeare's and break the cascade.

(8) 630AD A TON of stuff completes this turn, mostly marketplaces and banks. Our income goes up almost 35gpt as a result! I put many on universities, because they are cheap, provide more culture, and we are doing research now. Kandahar founded to the east of Arbela; it IS in an Ergili position, but due to the location of the coastline there was nothing I could do about it. The Indian city it is next to has NOT expanded its cultural borders yet, so we have a good shot to control the 3 tiles over which they would be fighting. And when our borders expand, we will claim another saltpeter resource.

(9) 640AD Library rushed in Kandahar (of course). Pasargadae can build Wall Street next turn, but I am going to hold off and see what the team says regarding Shakeapeare. At worst, we lose the production from 1 turn, so no biggie.

(10) 650AD Nothing important happened on this turn. Sanitation due in 5 turns at +70gpt (can go to 4 turns at +7gpt). We will also get an extra saltpeter in 3 turns at Kandahar, which can be traded to India for a decent sum of money. The question really concerns what to do with Pasargadae. It has 299 shields at the moment; Wall Street costs 300 and Shakespeare costs 400. We can almost certainly get the wonder, but Inudstrialization may be discovered in the 4 turns it will take to build it, and thus we would achieve nothing. It's a judgement call for the group, and keep in mind that it will cost us roughly 1000g to buy Free Artistry. My gut feeling is that we should ignore Shakespeare and hope for the best, but I don't want to make an arbitary decision like that myself. Others?

RBE1 650AD
 
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