RBGC SG2 - In the Thick of It - TEAM E

As I mentioned in the team N thread, I think you would have had to settle Rathra earlier to have had a shot at it. :)

As far as cutouts go, I've never been one to waste time worrying about defenders, I usually have shields before I'm ready to start building anything remotely like a defensive fleet. Any extra military spending I have on planets where I don't want to build colony ships or scouts in the earliest phases of the game goes to constructor pre-builds, which I can swap to freighters or battleaxes later as necessary. This has worked well so far, at least. Still, I hadn't previously realized that offensive power is what counts for your military rating; in the future I might consider a couple starfighters or corvettes which can at least double as scouts...
 
Originally posted by Zed-F
Still, I hadn't previously realized that offensive power is what counts for your military rating; in the future I might consider a couple starfighters or corvettes which can at least double as scouts...

What works really well to boost your military rating is to build a bunch of corvettes in a sector with attack boosting modules added. This only boost the ships in its own sectors, but it is considered in your military rating.

It is not a cheap way of improving your military, you do have to build the constructors to boost the starbase, but if you are building a starbase there already and have some constructors to spare it works well.
 
I view battleaxes AS cutouts. That is probably the chief strategic difference here. I've been in enough wars with runaway Drengin squashing me right out of the gate to know for certain the total worthlessness of battleaxes against frigates or better. Therefore, what is the point? One cutout is as good as another, in my view. So I will build a mix, depending on what the production levels of my planets are. If a defender takes the same turns as a vette, I will build the more expensive defender. If not, I'll do the vette. I'll do a battleaxe if it will finish before my "allotted number of turns to build these freighters/constructors" runs out, but if not, I'll stick with the smaller ships, because a ship in the field is worth two in the shipyard. I only build cutouts as side effects anyway, as something important to be doing, but best done as secondary effect while spending on military for urgently needed colony ships, freighters, or constructors. By the time I get to real ships, I stop building cutouts, for the most part.

Thus, to me, defenders, vettes, star fighters, axes... it's all the same, really. Those are all cutouts. Real ships start with frigates, and I don't like those, too costly on upkeep. Hammers are much better. And B-ships. I also like drones. I like those a lot. No ukpeep, same cost as scouts, longer range, can be parked anywhere, and work just as well as other cutouts, since if you have one in orbit, an enemy transport cannot get through without warship escort.

There are two values to the cutouts. One is to boost military rating a bit, the other is to be a warm body preventing beeline transports from sneaking through without space superiority.

So I kind of see this distinction about "waiting to build battleaxes" as insignificant. Those are still cutouts. :lol: Right? :)


- Sirian
 
Isit: Your name has appeared on our join list, but I did not get an email. If you are trying to join, we'd be happy to have you, but I need a confirmation from you that you embrace our House Rules. That's not a big step to take, but we do insist everyone who joins us makes that commitment proactively, so it is more than just a formality. If you have not read the House Rules, go here:

Realms Beyond - Empire Thread

If you would like to become part of our Metaverse Empire, just post your consent to these rules in any of our threads. Here is fine. If not, then sorry for the confusion. :)


- Sirian
 
Isit: Your name has appeared on our join list, but I did not get an email. If you are trying to join, we'd be happy to have you, but I need a confirmation from you that you embrace our House Rules. That's not a big step to take, but we do insist everyone who joins us makes that commitment proactively, so it is more than just a formality. If you have not read the House Rules, go here:

That’s a bug with stardock I think. I got to the point of sending off a message to you about joining through Stardock but backed out without hitting submit. I don’t know how that put me on your list. /shrug

At any rate after further thought, I would like to join your empire. I have read and understand your rules and exploit list. I agree to follow them for as long as I am in your empire.
 
Originally posted by Sirian
So I kind of see this distinction about "waiting to build battleaxes" as insignificant. Those are still cutouts. :lol: Right? :)


Well, there are cutouts, and then there are cutouts. :)

I don't see battleaxes as being totally useless in combat. The key distinction for me is that they have enough hit points and a strong enough attack/defense value (especially when defending) to make a good ship for poaching purposes in the early game. Specifically, they make decent guards for your own offensive transports against an enemy who is already gassed or who has the majority of their fleet elsewhere. Sure, battleaxes won't stand up against concentrated abuse from frigates, but they can certainly hold their own defensively against a trickle of them. They also have enough hitpoints to be able to go on the offensive against weaker orbital defenders without taking much in the way of casualties -- you don't need to bring along extra corvettes for offense, the battleaxes can fill that slot too. For early poaching, you just don't need anything else, though battlehammers are of course handy if you expect actual opposition.

Corvettes and Starfighters, on the other hand, just don't have the hitpoints for effective combat operations even against mostly gassed opponents. Send them up against even battleaxes and you have a pretty sad kill ratio happening, especially since early in the game you tend not to have much in the way of military bonuses (e.g. shipyards/mil resources) while your opponents likely will. While they might have some role as a warm body to block a transport, or as a scout, or as a "look at me I'm scary" boost to your mil rating, these ships have no value in actual combat, as you pointed out. Battleaxes are in a sort of grey area between that and a real warship, and do in fact have their uses in low-intensity combat zones.
 
Isit: I knew you had not followed through, I just didn't know why. Glad you have decided to join us. There are about three things the Empire management screen could do better, but there are only a handful of empire leaders and even fewer who run invite-only empires, so I guess none of us have ever taken the time to complain to Cari. No plans to change that tonight, either. :lol:


Battleaxes are in a sort of grey area between that and a real warship

Zed: Doesn't look gray to me. How is the opponent supposed to become gassed? If they are already gassed from fighting somebody else, and you're going in to poach, you're striking at undefended worlds. Maybe one defensive ship, some transports and colony ships, maybe one newly produced ship if your timing is bad. For a hair more than the price of an axe, you could have a battle cruiser, with actual attack value. So it would only be before that point on the tech tree that you'd choose to build axes for the role you're talking about. That's a very narrow window.

And as for defense, the game does not, in my experience, behave like Civ3 on stacking, where the best defender always rolls first. The only reliable defense I've found is to be the attacker, if at all possible. Vettes are faster than axes, and both are about equally useless against real combat ships. The vette costs less to maintain, too, and three of them do a better job scouting or harassing enemy freighters than one axe.

I'm not dissing axes here. I build more of them than any other ship type in the game. But I also tend to play larger maps than you do on average. The smaller the map, the faster you get into conflicts, the easier it is to hit targets of opportunity of all shapes and sizes, including squishing minors, poaching red meat from AI-on-AI wars, deciding to launch an early invasion, etc. Playing larger maps, the chances to do battle before the battle cruiser era (and turn it to your favor) are few and far between.

The axe is the backbone of my cutout force. :lol: However, even on small map conquests, I usually rush to hammers and rely on them. Works better for me.


- Sirian
 
If they are already gassed from fighting somebody else, and you're going in to poach, you're striking at undefended worlds. Maybe one defensive ship, some transports and colony ships, maybe one newly produced ship if your timing is bad. For a hair more than the price of an axe, you could have a battle cruiser, with actual attack value.
True, I could build a battle cruiser in most cases instead of an axe. However, I don't like the looks on paper of a battlecruiser, and have never bothered to build them. The only good thing about them is the attack value; everything else sucks. A mere 20 HP on a 2nd tier offensive vessel, what's up with that? And for 5 maintenance a pop? No thanks. I view battlecuisers as worse cutouts than axes, for a higher cost. Plus, I generally don't need them. If I'm attacking with my axes, it's mostly non-combat stuff or 1st tier crap units; if I think I'll need a real attacker, I'll build a hammer or two. :)

While the game may not pick the best defender first, AFAIK it is supposed to hit combat ships (with ATT>0) before non-combat ships (with ATT 0) -- thus, the axes are there to (a) make sure the transports don't get hit if my stack gets attacked, (b) free up my hammers (if any) from needing to stay with the transport stack to protect it, (c) take care of any weak defenders & non-combat ships that happen to be at the target planet, and (d) not die while doing so, so they can defend my new planet if necessary. Could I do the same with other 1st and 2nd tier units like corvettes and battlecruisers? Probably not, given the rest are all horrible at defense & die too easily. The battleaxes may be able to support real warships by taking over some of the more defensive roles, but other cutouts can't. Since none of the other cutouts are really useful poaching-wise, that leaves battleaxes as the cutout of choice.

I should note that I don't build extra axes explicitly for the purpose of poaching. These axes are just some of my cutout defense fleet that get drafted into poaching duty. I should also note that to date I haven't built many cutouts with the express intention of scouting with them; I find that on smaller maps, scouting with colony ships, the explorer, maybe a scout, and a couple free ships out of anomalies usually suffices for initial exploring, with sensor drones coming later in more of a global coverage role.



EDIT: A couple more amplifications...

But I also tend to play larger maps than you do on average. The smaller the map, the faster you get into conflicts, the easier it is to hit targets of opportunity of all shapes and sizes, including squishing minors, poaching red meat from AI-on-AI wars, deciding to launch an early invasion, etc.
I agree that early game poaching is easier on smaller maps than on larger maps, as both range tech / starbases and transit time are significant factors. Even on medium maps you really need Grav Accelerators to make battleaxes viable as anything other than pure home defense. Corvettes might well have more value on larger maps, where scouting takes longer and you need faster ships generally. I still wouldn't build battlecruisers though.

However, even on small map conquests, I usually rush to hammers and rely on them.

For real conquest, I don't use axes much either, though I may bring along a couple just to be warm bodies. I fully agree that for attacking an opponent who can actually fight back in a meaningful manner, you need at least hammers.
 
I'm with Zed, never build Battlecruisers the're a total waste, an axe a day keep the Drengin away, and an axe at level 3 is a worthwhile ship that can stagger away from a frigate's attack.

Aviator
 
Back
Top Bottom