RBP10 - Spanish Explorers - Team C Interest Thread

[Quokka]

Rome has cities with expanded borders? That's REALLY odd for Rome, in my experience. In almost every game I've ever played, Rome has been a non-player due to having craptastic culture, and always picking fights with his neighbours early in the game and being knocked/pillaged back into the stone ages, then when he does make peace, never being able to recover.

Same here, this is new for me too. The Roman Ceaser's were also Gods, maybe Deity is just their level.

Before we attack Rome just make sure we have some settlers to replace the razed cities or another AI will just do the same thing.
I think we should raze the cities to make sure we have no foreigners in any of our mianland cities, we'll be behind in culture and need to minimize flip risks. Can we provoke Rome into declaring on us to save our rep? Maybe with aggressive settling? That would help our unit limit and prevent leaving free space for another AI to settle.

 

[falsfire]

So, umm...you want to avoid a rep stain by getting Caesar to declare on us, then take the hit that razing his cities will cause us.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to condescend, after all this is a learning game for all of us, might as well share our experience via intelligent discussion & constructive criticism, right?

There is *no* rep hit for honorably declaring war on Rome (honorable means with *none* of our units inside his borders), then stepping in and attacking same round. The declaration must come before any units move into his territory though. And yes, I believe that at least four horsemen, plus a settler and a vet spear or two for *each* of his cities would be a sufficient attack force. 2-4 other horsemen to roam the rest of our lands to dispel any landing attempts he may make.

Razing his cities (even if the razing is beyond our control due to cities being size 1 with no culture) will put a very tiny stain on us, but is nothing we can't overcome.

Right now, though, I'm still 50/50 on the fence regarding razing his cities or keeping them. Lugdunum is size two, w/o expanded borders, this means if we capture it, it will drop to size one with no history of Roman culture. We'd stand a good chance of keeping it.

Byzantium, OTOH, would be auto-razed as it stands now, as it's only size 1 w/o expanded borders.

We'll see how it 'feels' as my turn comes out.

 

[falsfire]

State of the Empire, 710 BC.

There has been mucho discussion regarding attacking the two Roman colonies on our island and squeezing some tech/gold/maps out of him in exchange for peace after a few turns of war.

There has been talk of attacking with horsemen, yet when I look at our armies, I see we have no horsemen. We have four in production, one due in four, one in eight, and the other two in six turns. One settler to pop out next turn. We have a grand total of three spears, and EIGHTEEN WARRIORS?!? On this small rock? I see many of them running MP duty here, there, and everywhere. Only two MP are allowed under Despotism, so cities with more than two units don't need 'em. I wish we had Iron Working, and the cash to upgrade some warriors to swords (provided we *have* iron, that is), I'd upgrade the five vets we can spare from MP duty to swords to join the attack stack. Five upgrades, though, would require Iron (of course), and 160 gold pieces that we don't have. We are at 20gold now, and +8gpt. We have eighteen turns of paying 5gpt to England, five turns of 3gpt to China, and WTH?!?!? WE'RE PAYING 2 GPT TO ROME FOR SEVENTEEN TURNS?!? Oh, drat! No attacking Rome for 17 turns, guys. Fair play means we don't declare whilst we're making gpt payments or outgoing lux trades. I'm sorry, but I just *DON'T* do that. This means we have seventeen turns to build up our forces for attack. Rome & China are already in the Middle Ages now, Scandinavia and England can't be far behind. Scandinavia has a monopoly on Literature, so we can't afford it to broker around, but I will watch for opportunities if one or two other civs pick it up.

Another question is this: We *CAN* now afford to buy Iron Working off China, for 8gpt, WM, and him kicking in 4g on his side. That eats all our gpt for three turns, leaving us with +24g, a chance that we have NO IRON, and short 136gp to upgrade our five vet warriors. We could ask Scandinavia for a loan, he'd give us 45g for the 3gpt we'd have once our payment to China expires in three turns. We'd then still have no income, and only enough gold to upgrade ONE lousy warrior.

That's all a pretty big gamble on the chance we might be able to upgrade one unit. I'd rather stick things out, maybe pick up IW later in my turn. Another thing: We have 2 units extra support available for free. This means we'll start paying unit upkeep costs in six turns when the 2nd and 3rd horsies pop out. We cannot get any more unit support short of settling another city, which will give us a measly four more free units. Our economy is so pathetic right now, that I do not think we can find a way to support the units we'll need for the attack unless we:

a) build black dot on the southern coast, between the two Roman cities.
b) sack some of our excess warriors. We have eight cities, two MP allowed per city. MP to be made up from our stock of 3 spears and eighteen warriors. This means we can sack six warriors, contributing their glorious shields towards the horsemen we're building. That'd leave us room for eight more units at our current city load, keeping in mind we have to deduct any settlers/workers we build also. There's the settler mentioned above due from Madrid in one turn, and a worker due from Murcia in 5. We have nine workers going right now. Do we need more? Of course, we ALWAYS need more workers, but do we need them RIGHT NOW?
c) settle black dot, raising our total unit support to 36 units. Total MP required to max all cities' MP is eighteen MP. This means we have three extra units. If we sack three warriors, that will give us nine more units supported for free. That should be a sufficient force, right? Right? I hope so.

I'm going to go with option (c), hopefully the team will support me on this venture. Then, I'll continue to build up some horsies. In seventeen turns we can attack, which would mean on turn eight of the next player's round we can attack. Hopefully, both cities will fall in one turn. Then, we'll have to weather 3-5 turns counterattacks from his mainland, so watch our east and southeast coast. I'll reiterate this again later.

Now, finally onto examining our tile arrangements.

710 BC (0) - In Madrid, with the settler due next turn, we don't need the overrun of food and shields as we don't get to keep it. I turn two citizens into tax collectors to net us an additional 2gpt. I leave all other tile arrangements alone.

But...one question begs asking. Why are Manuel & his friend mining the hill two tiles north of Barcelona? We won't get any extra shields out of it in Despotism, and those worker turns can be put to good use elsewhere. Don't me, but I cancel both of them and move them one north to road up to Murcia.

IT: A Roman border pops up on the island NW of Toledo, a Roman galley sails up adjacent to Murcia, and an English galley is exploring our eastern coast. Too bad we're not ready for war yet: I bet if I demanded Caesar to leave he'd declare.

690 BC (1) - Madrid Settler->Horseman. Sack one regular warrior in Barcelona. Shuffling some units around. Umm...why is the warrior from Murcia on a goto order? Please don't do this in a SG unless there's specific reason to do so and it's mentioned at the tail end of your turn report. Also, I wonder why Ragnar hasn't traded Literature yet. We know that Rome & China are up tech on him, as they are in the Middle Ages and he is not. England is just plain broke, so no wondering why she didn't pick it up.

IT: Rome & England sail away, our borders expand at Barcelona (they're now touching Lugdunum). Lugdunum has grown to size three.

670 BC (2) - More unit shuffling.

650 BC (3) - Barcelona horseman->horseman. Two more reg warriors sacked. MM Barcelona to grow this turn instead of next. China picked up Literature and Ragnar is wearing spiffy new Middle Age clothing. Odd that Rome still hasn't picked it up...I wonder if he's fighting Ragnar? Better yet, I wonder if I can pick up Lit cheaply, and twofer it to Rome & England for some tech? Scandinavia would give us Lit for 9gpt and 21g (leaving us 0gpt and 31g). China will do it for 9gpt and 7g. We get back 3gpt from him in two turns anyways. Plus, this leaves us 46g with which we can hopefully, successfully trade Lit to Rome or England for tech. It's a chance, but I pull the trigger, as this twofer opportunity could be departing us after next turn. Hmmmm...INTERESTING...while playing around with the sliders, trying to see if I can finnagle Mapmaking outta either Caesar or Lizzie for Lit +gold, I get an advisor popup stating "We know that Caesar has betrayed our friends the Vikings". This means either he's renegged on a deal due to a trade route vanishing, or...they were, or ARE, at war...which would explain why he never picked up Lit yet!

Bottom line is, even if I mortgage the farm by dropping all sliders to 0%, we're still only "close to a deal" for Mapmaking. But...I can get us a good haul, not including mapmaking, if I do this:

Literature, WM, 35g to England for Masonry & Mysticism.
Now, our remaining 11g, WM, and Lit is "close to a deal" for Iron Working from Rome. Hmmm...how can I get this deal this turn before Rome buys the now-devalued Literature from China next turn. So...I re-arrange a worker in Madrid from the forest plains to the coast (lose two shields, horseman still done in two turns, and gain +2gpt). Then, I borrow 17g from China for 1gpt (costing us only 3g to borrow). Then, I go back to Caesar and offer him Literature and 25g for Iron Working. Phew! Only 3gp extra. Now that's trading...a Four-fer!
(I had to move the worker to get a +ve gpt to take out the loan from Mao, and I wanted to do that and trade Caesar hard cash as opposed to gpt as the LAST thing we want is to prolong our gpt payments to Caesar)

Rome has NO IRON!!!! He must've had or bought some at some time, as the advisor tells me that "Rome has the Legionary". Or does the advisor simply tell us about the best unit Rome knows how to build? In the diplo screen, Rome has no "Resources" tab, but we can't be sure til we hookup our iron if he lacks it. Yes, that's right, we can't be sure til WE HOOK UP OUR IRON!!!!

Well, it's not exactly ours yet:

Although we need to pop that border ASAP, even if we don't hookup the iron right away, just to deny Rome from founding on Red "X".

I change Toledo to a temple and whip it. We'll have iron in our borders in five turns.

IT: Romans and English start GrLib.

630 BC (4) - I pillage the grassland Caesar irrigated that's now in OUR territory to prevent him from irrigating Lugdunum. BWAHAHAHAHA!! Wow, Caesar has built harbors in both Lugdunum AND Byzantium. I wonder if we'll get to keep them? (50% chance of non-cultural improvements being destroyed when a city changes hands, excepting an aqueduct and hospital which are never lost). We're at 3g and -1gpt, but we have two cities about to grow next turn. I try to see if I can squeeze an extra gpt or two outta some of our cities, but they're all so efficiently managed already that's not possible!

IT: Ack! Rome demands our TM and our last 3g! I have to cave, we'd be crushed if he attacked us now. I just hope we don't lose anything valuable. Maybe the city growth phase will come before it examines our lack of gold?

610 BC (5) - Oh, pooey. We lose the barracks at Barcelona. Madrid horseman->horseman. Santiago horseman->horseman. Murcia worker->granary (for lack of better choice, next leader can veto, or it can be a prebuild for a harbor). Move some horsemen forward, Pamplona founded on black dot, temple ordered for now. Just at the last minute, I remember to change Barcelona back to a barracks to replace the one we lost. We're now at 5g, +5gpt; I sell our WM for 1g (only Ragnar would pay for it). Right now, the Vikings, Romans, Chinese are in Middle Ages and are all showing four techs up on us. England lacks Polytheism which they all have, but no, alas, at 6g and 5gpt, we cannot afford it, not even close.

590 BC (6) - Seville horseman->horseman. Rome starts Hanging Gardens. I make an enter/exit foray into Roman lands near Lugdunum to scout his defenses, he has a regular spear showing as top defender. Rome moved his worker back into our territory to try and irrigate. I'm enjoying this little game of cat&mouse. I hope Caesar is, too. Oh, and Byzantium has grown to size two, so we can now keep both cities if we choose to

IT: Rome moves his worker farther into our territory? What the frig are you up to, Caesar? China starts the GrLib.

570 BC (7) - Byzantium also has a reg spear as top defender. Barcelona grows and needs a scientist to prevent rioting. Consequently, Zaragoza can resume growth now.

IT: Lizzie comes up, and has the gall to demand 19g and our TM. Hmm...she's pretty far to the south, and I don't think she could mount a credible invasion. Still, she may pay Rome/China/Scandinavia into a dogpile, maybe, if she gets a new tech they lack! As she's broke. But...she may not want peace for free once 5-10 turns of "fake war" are up. I ponder this for a few minutes while I call a client back. I decide to tell her politely "NO!". She does have a galley sailing around near us, it can't have that many units on board, can it? Besides, we have a few horsemen floating around now to dispatch any would-be invaders, and any hurt we can inflict on her would only drive her closer to peace terms.

So...I say no, and.....(drum roll please)England declares war on us! Oooooohhhhh.....interesting. Sorry guys, but I was getting SICK of these people picking on us every time we scrape together a few golds. Her galley sails further north along our coast. I'll shadow it with a horseman or two.

550 BC (8) - We experience severe war happiness, and I'm able to drop lux taxes completely, getting us to +16gpt Also this turn, we could (if we wanted to) now afford to buy any one of the four techs we lack. If we weren't at war with England, we could, for example, buy Polytheism and two-fer it to her. I'm thinking of Mapmaking so we can build some dam harbours, but I dunno...we're making Mao rich with all the gpt we're paying him for tech. This is b/c he offers the best deals. Nobody else's prices are even close. Stupid Lizzie, we were paying her 5gpt, maybe we should buy off of Ragnar anyways, just to keep him smiling at us and less likely to dogpile on us. I do it, paying Ragnar 27g & 14gpt for MM. (China's price wasn't *much* better, at 13gpt & 22g. That's only a 25g difference). Plus, draining our treasury will mean less demands, and us paying the remaining 3 AIs we know gpt makes them less likely to dogpile on us. I swap Murcia to a harbour and Toledo & Valencia to a galley. Valencia's galley is due next turn. We can now start exploring, and possible even settle other island(s)! We're now at 6g & 2gpt.

IT: English galley sails further north.

530 BC (9) - Madrid horseman->horseman. It also grows to size 7 and needs a taxman to stay happy. I rearrange tiles to gain us 10spt, to make horsies in a nice 3 turns a pop. Valencia galley->rax (for lack of anything better). Roman worker looks to be trying to connect his two cities THRU our city of Pamplona.

IT: English galley sails north, away from us and towards the Roman city on the northern island.

(cont'd next message)

 

[falsfire]

510 BC (10) - Barcelona rax->horseman. Rome completes the Hanging Gardens in Pompeii.

Where the heck do you think you're going Caesar? One reg spear? Don't tell me you're planning to ATTACK with that thing? I wonder what's guarding Lugdunum now...oh...a Legionary...make that a veteran Legionary. Yup, Rome must have had iron at some point and it moved, or he had bought it, or lost a city. This town might be a tough nut to crack after all, guys.

Turn summary:

We now have five horseman, our deal with Rome expires in 7 turns. We'll have five more horseman by then (Madrid can produce one every three turns now). We acquired the following techs: Literature, Masonry, Mysticism, Ironworking, Mapmaking. Our iron source will be hooked up next turn.

Although we can now trade resources & luxuries with Rome & China, DON'T!!! We don't want any more ongoing deals with Rome, and as soon as we declare on Rome, we lose our trade route to China (it's through Rome's harbour at Lugdunum). Even if we take the city on the first turn of war, *AND* the harbour survives, the trade route gets broken as soon as we declare, so we'd still suffer the rep hit from losing our export route. Don't even do it if we get our own harbour built earlier somehow, as THAT trade route has to pass through Roman coastal waters to get to China.

Keep a CLOSE eye on that Roman spearman moving into our lands. If he gets right up next to Barcelona, we should demand he leave. You have two horsemen standing right next to him now, one unmoved (the other one scouted Lugdunum and saw that oh-so-awful vet legionary).

Never forget we are now at war with England. Keep horsemen stationed up north in case she tries a naval landing behind our more fortified southern front.

Also, remember we are having negative war-weariness from the war with England. That could go away at any time, causing us to have to either turn lux back on or have cities riot.

We should also prioritize learning a new form of government soon and revolting.

Also also, as we now have mapmaking and our first galley out (next one due in 5), we should try and make contact with other civs. If we do, trading the contacts between the "new group" and "old group" should be avoided for as long as possible, to maximize our brokering opportunities and monopoly tech-selling opportunities.

The save

 

[Sullla]

Just one note on your red "X" falsfire: the AI civs will never settle within two tiles of one of your cities. There's no worry about them ever settling on the hill you marked with the X, even if your borders never expand there. Keep that in mind for future games.

Good luck to your team.

 

[falsfire]

Just one note on your red "X" falsfire: the AI civs will never settle within two tiles of one of your cities. There's no worry about them ever settling on the hill you marked with the X, even if your borders never expand there.

Yeah, I kinda figured that, but I just wanted to play it safe, that AND getting the iron online sooner can only help us.

Funny thing, though, is that in re-reading my own post today and looking at the image of Pamplona, I realized that we settled that city within two tiles of Lugdunum! That's called aggressive settling, and it's *bound* to piss Caesar off. He will come after us sooner or later for doing that. Better us boot him off our island first. We may just want to raze & replace Lugdunum in a different spot further east, as there is some serious overlap going on right now between Lugdunum & Pamplona. Plus, at size four (maybe five by the time we're ready to attack), it'd have some serious resistance, and it's about equidistant to the Roman capitol as it is to ours.

But, some further thoughts, team.

We do need to get settled on some more land soon. This little ball of rock we have now is not going to be enough to win us the game, not unless we pull some SERIOUS RBE2 style moves.

We also need to think about an FP. Probably on whatever new landmass we can find, but we'll have to see once we know more about the map.

Rome may only have that one vet legion, and he probably just moved it into Lugdunum recently, as it is higher defence & hp than the reg spear that showed as top defender when I last scouted his lands. If that's his only Legion, we want to try and not trip his golden age, but instead massacre it. Maybe if we can swing mathematics somehow, we can include some catapults to attack Lugdunum. Four horsies, a couple swords, and 3-5 cats should do it, methinks.

As he has no iron now, if we deny him his golden age, he may not get to build another legionary til it's too late to use 'em to trip a golden age. He'll have to do it via wonders. I don't think the AI would be smart enough to actually build any legions if he has the capability to build better offense units such as MDIs. The AIs *must* be close to Feudalism by now, so the time to act with our horseman is fast approaching, before the arrival of significant numbers of pikemen.

Once we kill Caesar's legionary, check in the foreign advisor screen during peace talks. If you keep clicking on the "more", it'll cycle thru the messages, and eventually get to, "The best unit the Romans have, that we are aware of, is the ..." I'd laugh so hard if the #1 AI in the world's best unit is something like a spearman or archer after we give that legion a dirtnap.

 

[jumbo2002]

I guess that means I'm up for preparing (and executing?) the elimination of the Roman presence from the Spanish homeland?

I won't be able to play until tomorrow night; I'll be happy to continue reading comments and opinion until then. As it is, I'm 99% sure that Lugdunum will be a raze and replace. As for the rest, I'll be looking at the save and thinking things through a little until tomorrow.

 

[Quokka]

So, umm...you want to avoid a rep stain by getting Caesar to declare on us, then take the hit that razing his cities will cause us.

Doh. Didn't think that through

WTH?!?!? WE'RE PAYING 2 GPT TO ROME FOR SEVENTEEN TURNS?!?

That was for their Territory Map. We had no gold and no military when I got the game so I knew we had some time before attacking Rome.

But...one question begs asking. Why are Manuel & his friend mining the hill two tiles north of Barcelona? We won't get any extra shields out of it in Despotism, and those worker turns can be put to good use elsewhere. Don't me, but I cancel both of them and move them one north to road up to Murcia

Those hills were being mined so that we could use them and chop the forests near Madrid for shields and give us Plains for room to grow. We aren't that far from Republic. Maybe could have waited.

Literature, WM, 35g to England for Masonry & Mysticism. Now, our remaining 11g, WM, and Lit is "close to a deal" for Iron Working from Rome. Hmmm...how can I get this deal this turn before Rome buys the now-devalued Literature from China next turn. So...I re-arrange a worker in Madrid from the forest plains to the coast (lose two shields, horseman still done in two turns, and gain +2gpt). Then, I borrow 17g from China for 1gpt (costing us only 3g to borrow). Then, I go back to Caesar and offer him Literature and 25g for Iron Working. Phew! Only 3gp extra. Now that's trading...a Four-fer!

Michealangelo never did better a true artiste

Umm...why is the warrior from Murcia on a goto order? Please don't do this in a SG unless there's specific reason to do so and it's mentioned at the tail end of your turn report.

There is on both accounts.

We have a grand total of three spears, and EIGHTEEN WARRIORS?!?

Warriors work as MP just as well as spears but are half price. We had hardly any MP's when I got the game. Vet Warriors can also become Vet Swords. I don't usually disband any units yet. If we upgrade Warriors to Swords they aren't going to be MPs any more. After we take the 2 Roman cities and build our own we will have 8 more unit allowance and the attack itself is going to cost troops. Horseman vs Legionaires only have a 17% chance of winning, we're going to need lots. Turn research off for a few turns if needs be. Are we going to try and take the island city? Peace payment maybe then it would be Spanish.

We also need to think about an FP. Probably on whatever new landmass we can find, but we'll have to see once we know more about the map.

I'd say build the FP in Barcelona asap. We can Palace jump with a Leader later on. This would get the south productive and help our economy no end. After the Rome War.

 

[falsfire]

First of all, I'm sorry. My report may have sounded a bit harsh at some points, I didn't mean to come across that way. Different people will naturally have different play styles. Didn't mean to come across so rough, just some of these things caught me by surprise.

Doh. Didn't think that through

No biggie. The rep system in civ3 can be described as fickle at best, and I'm pretty sure most of us get burned by one or more aspects of it that we overlook, forget, don't fully understand, etc. I just wish Firaxis would put in some confirmation prompts, such as, "your majesty, we still have x turns peace treaty with the Iroquois, are you sure you want to redeclare war?" or "my lord, we have a military alliance with the French, English, and Arabs vs. the evil Persians, making peace now could damage our reputation!"

That was for their Territory Map. We had no gold and no military when I got the game so I knew we had some time before attacking Rome.

Probably the best. True, we did have no military at the start of my turn, even w/o the deal going with Rome we woulda been hard pressed to takeout those cities during my tenure. I wouldn't have, I try to always remember these things are a team effort, it's not all about accomplishing as much as one can on their turn, but a good handoff to the next player is also a good goal to shoot for. Hand a loaded BFG9000 to the next player and watch them atomize your enemies . We are doing great as a team so far, guys, but a little more interturn discussion couldn't hurt so we have a common goal and a strategy that results from the best thoughts of all of us. That's how SG teams manage to win things such as RBE2, by compiling together the best strategies of each player on the team into an unstoppable plan.

Those hills were being mined so that we could use them and chop the forests near Madrid for shields and give us Plains for room to grow. We aren't that far from Republic. Maybe could have waited.

Didn't think of that, sorry. I usually never do anything with hills other than road 'em during despotism, so I often overlook such details as this. I was more interested in getting our empire all interconnected faster

Michealangelo never did better a true artiste

Many thanks. Sometimes these opportunities just present themselves. I love it when a trade goes really well. That's probably why I suck at always war games so badly, I'm too used to relying on heavy diplomacy as a significant part of my arsenal. In RBCiv game 17, as Babylon, I went through the entire Middle Ages in ~600 game years, or 43 turns, entirely by doing trades such as twofers, threefers, fourfers, and even some five and sixfers. From the end of the Ancient Age to the dawn of the Industrial era, flew by so fast, I still had warriors defending my cities, most cities had no marketplaces, banks, harbours, nothing at all when I hit the industrial, all cuz it came on me so fast. Never built a single Middle Ages unit, excepting Cavalry, which I built in droves when Egypt sneak-attacked me early in the industrial era. Don't you just love when the game's 900lb. gorilla sneak-attacks you?

There is on both accoun

Sorry, must've missed that when I read your turn report. My bad.

Warriors work as MP just as well as spears but are half price. We had hardly any MP's when I got the game. Vet Warriors can also become Vet Swords. I don't usually disband any units yet. If we upgrade Warriors to Swords they aren't going to be MPs any more. After we take the 2 Roman cities and build our own we will have 8 more unit allowance and the attack itself is going to cost troops. Horseman vs Legionaires only have a 17% chance of winning, we're going to need lots. Turn research off for a few turns if needs be. Are we going to try and take the island city? Peace payment maybe then it would be Spanish.

Too true, but the three warriors I sacked were regulars and not much use to us at the time. Every gpt counted, as our economy is still hovering very low at most times now, so even 1gpt unit support coulda made a world of difference to us.

I agree that we'll need some swords/catapults to knockout that legionary. Let's hope it's the only one he has. After all, just two turns earlier it showed a reg spear as top defender in that city.

Research is only on one scientist, btw. All we could save is by turning him into a taxman, which would give us one more gpt. Where I left the game, I had the sliders both at 0%, with just the one scientist run on CoL continuing.

Getting that city NW of Toledo as peace terms would be nice, unfortunately we'd kinda hafta know the name of it first? Maybe we should sail our galley up there. After all, we *will* need to defend it somehow. Cities received in peace talks do not come with any defenders. And an undefended island holding (especially one that might be harbouring an as-yet-unseen resource) are really tempting bait to the AI.

Once again, Quokka, I must apologise for how my turn report sounded. I didn't mean to pick on you like that, I guess I was just too eager to play my ten such that I missed some details from your report. My bad.

Let's go git 'em, team, and teach this world that the Spanish are not to be messed with!

 

[jumbo2002]

Yeah, falsfire, that was some excellent trading. I've never seen loans of gold work so well!

Getting that city NW of Toledo as peace terms would be nice, unfortunately we'd kinda hafta know the name of it first?

I was thinking that too; would it be better to try to take the city in peace, or a tech/tech discount?

 

[falsfire]

I was thinking that too; would it be better to try to take the city in peace, or a tech/tech discount?

My vote would be for the tech. The city is easy to take l8r, at the end of a pointy stick (or at the end of a boomstick, if it's that far into the game by the time we want it)

 

[Quokka]

No problem falsfire, I was just explaining my thinking. As you say different people have different styles. I agree that some more between turn discussion wouldn't hurt so I don't have to post

Doh. Didn't think that through

too many times. I'd also like to find some new strategies that you guys have, cos if I knew the best ones already I wouldn't be a deity neophyte .

I love the long complicated trades as well, but it was the borrowing from the Vikings to pay the Romans cash that got the Nike swoosh, and a 4fer is better than good. Five techs in 10 turns is outstanding.

Why are you moving to Medicine Hat?

 

[falsfire]

Why are you moving to Medicine Hat?

1. Cause it's got such a kool sounding name
2. Cause it's one heck of alot closer to my beloved Rocky Mountains than Winnipeg (I'm a mountain man. Skiier, Hiker, Scrambler, Rock-climber)
3. Cause I want to move west, that's where the action is
4. Cause I'm just finished my 2nd diploma in nightschool and need/want a better job now, in my chosen field
5. Cause I know lotsa people in Alberta
6. Cause it's time for a change in pace in my life

 

[jumbo2002]

Ok team, we've got an issue here...

I've reached turn 7, 370BC. Early on in my round, Rome upgraded their Legionary to an MDI. (They've got Iron from somewhere, either a new native source or a trade). The deal with Rome has expired, and I was going to wait one more turn to declare war, in order to arrange my troops better. (Waiting one turn will also block a possible English landing, and will allow for the possibility of said MDI to move off a mountain.) Still, this turn I decided to scout out the city defenses...and, while Byzantium is still showing a regular spear, Lugdunum is showing a regular pike.

Our currently available forces are 8 horsemen and 2 swordsmen stationed on the frontline, with another horseman on the way.

Mathmematics is beyond our economy's ability to purchase. Peace with England would cost something...I haven't checked yet to see exactly how much, because there's really no need for us to pay for peace. I haven't yet explored potential alliances with Scandinavia or China, so those options might be on the table.

Suggestions? Do I attack Byzantium, likely overrunning it (claiming the spices) but letting Lugdunum go until a future time? Do we roll the dice and try to take out strongly defended Lugdunum, as Byzantium may be able to fall in a "second wave" of this war? Or do we scrap the war plan altogether? (On my round, at least.)

EDIT: I'm leaning towards option B. How comfortable are we with the chances of 8 vet horsemen (+2 swords) taking out 2 regular pikes?

 

[Despot]

Hi team, sorry I haven't been around much lately. I've been swamped with work. However, have now caught up reading how you all are fairing. I must say that you are all doing a terrific job!!

A few comments...I think we should raze/replace both Lugdunum (move to forest ENE) and Byzantium (move one S). We can then take out the island city to the NW(keeping it if possible) it should be lightly guarded. Afterwards, we can try landing two or three ships or horses/swords by Rome. The presence of our troops next to the capital should increase our ability to yield a large peace concession. It might be risky landing the troops near Rome, but I think that it will win us a larger peace prize. I am a bit aggressive so I like that plan, but you guys might not want a landing near Rome...

@Jumbo, I believe we should take Lugdunum 8 horses and 2 swords should be more than enough. Perhaps you can switch that current horse to a sword they cost the same, but are better attackers and defenders although obvoiusly less mobile. However, I think we will have no problem taking both cities on our island and for that matter defending against any eventual Roman response. I think we should also take the NW city with two boat loads of swords...how many galleys do we have? Do we have settlers prepared to replace the Roman cities on our island?

 

[falsfire]

Vet horseman vs. regular pike, fortified in a town on grassland has a 31% chance of victory.
Vet swordsman vs. regular pike, same situation has a 51% chance of victory.

The odds aren't the greatest, there will definately be some losses, but if we don't go after him now he will soon be defending with muskets. We need to get caught up, and a little pointy-stick research would help.

For certain, though, we must takeout that MDI on defense. As in, the MDI defending. We don't want a 4-attack MDI attacking one of our spearman or worse yet warrior-defended cities.

I must admit, I never thought of the option of getting another AI or two to attack England in an alliance. We needn't worry about surviving 20 turns of war with the AI's pathetic island-invasion capabilities. However, what can we pay for this? Everybody's ahead of us on tech, and you already mentioned we can't even afford mathematics, I doubt we could afford an embassy (required for an alliance) AND the alliance itself.

That's my 2gp worth...

 

[Despot]

yes, I don't think an alliance is the way to go since we have nothing to offer and couldn't even pay for the embassy that is required. I think we keep our gpt trades going with China and the Vikes and hopefully that will be enough to keep them from joining an MA against us. We do as much damage as we can with the Romans and get peace and then think about how to deal with England. I really don't think England could be much of a threat anyways. Even if we got an MA against them then we couldn't declare peace with them until the MA was over so we would be in the same boat...eventually they should settle for a flat out peace...hopefully they will land a unit or two on our lands so that we can ruthlessly smite them to speed up the peace process.

 

[jumbo2002]

Ok, no problem. I was leaning towards repositioning our army for a full assault on Lugdunum...its what I would have done in a solo game, but I thought I'd get the team's input before committing to this course of action. BTW, by "horseman on the way" I mean just left its city...so we'll have 9 horses in the field soon, just wouldn't be able to attack next turn. That means I'll probably wait one extra turn after declaring (and hopefully taking out the MDI) to position troops inside Roman territory (allowing for the last horse to arrive, too) and attack Lugdunum directly on my 9th turn. e

Re: A potential alliance...it was to be directed against Rome; but it was more wishful thinking. Our economy can't afford it, anyway.

England will not be a problem; we should be able to prevent or defeat any landings they make. Also, there's a very nice English city on a 2-tile island to the south, halfway between us and England, that should be worth taking at some point if we think we can get concessions from England.

I'll be able to finish off the turns sometime this afternoon or tonight. May the RNG be with us.

 

[falsfire]

yes, never forget to offer your firstborn as a sacrifice to the prng before commencing any assault, even if you're attacking a non-fortified 1hp conscript warrior in the open with a 20hp modern armour army

hehe...in my feeble attempt at epic 27 always war, i lost a 14hp fortified full-strength spearman army, fortified in a hill town with walls to a 3hp attacking archer without even damaging the archer.

 

[Despot]

As far as the MDI goes...try to position the troops one tile away from him so he can't attack once you declare. Once you declare he won't be able to attack since there will be no one to attack and he will be forced to move off of the mountain so then you can hopefully attack him in the open with the hope of limiting the amount of troops it takes to take him out.

I will pray to the RNG gods for you. :worshp: