RBTS6 - Finally Ready for Noble!
- Thread starter Sullla
- Start date
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,601
I still plan to play tonight, though it will be late.
Civics: Switch to Slavery (or wait until Org Rel later?)
Plan for Cahokia: Finish warrior, then worker, then dog or settler next
Plan for Pov Point: Totem Pole for culture, then lighthouse->G Lighthouse, prechop forests
Warriors: Explore for coastal routes, specifically verify that Marble will connect
Do we want to prioritize our 3rd city in my turnset? It would require whipping, I think.
Civics: Switch to Slavery (or wait until Org Rel later?)
Plan for Cahokia: Finish warrior, then worker, then dog or settler next
Plan for Pov Point: Totem Pole for culture, then lighthouse->G Lighthouse, prechop forests
Warriors: Explore for coastal routes, specifically verify that Marble will connect
Do we want to prioritize our 3rd city in my turnset? It would require whipping, I think.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
I don't see a need to rush for the yellow dot site. It looks pretty safe in my opinion; few resources, plus out of the way for Joao. (I don't believe he's scouted there, and the AI tends not to settle areas it hasn't scouted.) It should be able to wait a little longer.
Zeviz suggested trying for the Great Lighthouse at yellow dot location. I don't think we can do that, if only because it doesn't have enough forests for chopping. No, I still say that Poverty Point is the only realistic location that has a shot at Great Lighthouse. Yes, we're going to lose some tiles there to Portugese capital. We'll probably have to get really aggressive with chopping, taking down some forests 3-4 tiles away from the city. Still - what else are our workers going to do? They aren't going to be building roads or farms.
Zeviz suggested trying for the Great Lighthouse at yellow dot location. I don't think we can do that, if only because it doesn't have enough forests for chopping. No, I still say that Poverty Point is the only realistic location that has a shot at Great Lighthouse. Yes, we're going to lose some tiles there to Portugese capital. We'll probably have to get really aggressive with chopping, taking down some forests 3-4 tiles away from the city. Still - what else are our workers going to do? They aren't going to be building roads or farms.
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,601
Played 20T:
I almost laugh out loud when the our stonemasons at Poverty Point immediately ask to help Joao build his wonders. I politely but firmly request that they remain with us.
After 3T, the warrior completes in Cahokia. I figure this is a good time to revolt to Slavery so now we can whip if needed. I also decide to grow Cahokia to size 4 (3T) before starting the growth-stopping worker. Since I'll lose some hammers from decay before the worker completes, I decide to put the 3hpt into the Temple of Artemis. If nothing else, we'll get a small bit of cash if someone else builds it. Without Sailing, we don't have Stone connected in Cahokia, so no sense putting the hammers into Stonehenge.
When Sailing--Poverty Point now supplies Stone to the empire--comes in, I head for Writing (15T).
A couple turns later our northernmost warrior completes his survey of the coastal routes around Wang Kon's lands. Note that Wang has sheep, horses and marble along with many forests.
Poverty Point completes its Totem Pole and starts immediately on a lighthouse (later to be upgraded to the Great Lighthouse). The archer and warrior visible in this picture would eventually move south and east into our peninsula though I didn't see any other troops head that way.
The warrior that Cahokia had built early in the turnset has revealed that the Marble is coastally connected to the rest of the empire, but that there is ice blocking a coastal route the rest of the way south. I'm not sure if that warrior should continue scouting or return to garrison a city.
Both Cahokia and Poverty Point are without garrisons right now. A warrior stands fortified near the gems site on a forested hill. Barb warriors have started appearing, but are not advancing on the cities yet.
Overview of Wang's land:
Note that we are trade-connected to Wang, but not to Joao! I'm not sure why this is. It does lead me to think that Yellow-dot on the eastern seaboard would be connected with our empire though I haven't loaded up a WB test to confirm that.
Our first worker completes in Cahokia just as I reach 20T. He is sent to the forest NW of Poverty Point (note: he's on auto-route to there). I've tentatively queued up a settler, but that's debatable.
Notes:
Currently neither of our cities has any troops. One warrior is stationed nearby, another is scouting north, another is scouting south. I guess I'd probably send the south-scout back to Cahokia, but maybe it's easier to just build another MP. Not sure when the noble barbs will attack.
I don't understand the trade-connection. Our borders touch Joao's, but we don't have trade with him. Yet we are trade-connected with Wang even though he's on the east coast and we're on the west. I guess that's good...?
I think we should be able to chop out the GLighthouse in Poverty Point with the one worker. Prechop the forests until math comes in, then finish them off. With luck, our borders will pop before Joao's capital pops again so we can grab a couple more forests.
Wang will have marble, so we may want to prioritize getting our own source of marble for some of those wonders.
I don't think I revealed much land that would update our dotmaps, though the copper is confirmed to be inland and useless.
Save is attached....
I almost laugh out loud when the our stonemasons at Poverty Point immediately ask to help Joao build his wonders. I politely but firmly request that they remain with us.
After 3T, the warrior completes in Cahokia. I figure this is a good time to revolt to Slavery so now we can whip if needed. I also decide to grow Cahokia to size 4 (3T) before starting the growth-stopping worker. Since I'll lose some hammers from decay before the worker completes, I decide to put the 3hpt into the Temple of Artemis. If nothing else, we'll get a small bit of cash if someone else builds it. Without Sailing, we don't have Stone connected in Cahokia, so no sense putting the hammers into Stonehenge.
When Sailing--Poverty Point now supplies Stone to the empire--comes in, I head for Writing (15T).
A couple turns later our northernmost warrior completes his survey of the coastal routes around Wang Kon's lands. Note that Wang has sheep, horses and marble along with many forests.
Poverty Point completes its Totem Pole and starts immediately on a lighthouse (later to be upgraded to the Great Lighthouse). The archer and warrior visible in this picture would eventually move south and east into our peninsula though I didn't see any other troops head that way.
The warrior that Cahokia had built early in the turnset has revealed that the Marble is coastally connected to the rest of the empire, but that there is ice blocking a coastal route the rest of the way south. I'm not sure if that warrior should continue scouting or return to garrison a city.
Both Cahokia and Poverty Point are without garrisons right now. A warrior stands fortified near the gems site on a forested hill. Barb warriors have started appearing, but are not advancing on the cities yet.
Overview of Wang's land:
Note that we are trade-connected to Wang, but not to Joao! I'm not sure why this is. It does lead me to think that Yellow-dot on the eastern seaboard would be connected with our empire though I haven't loaded up a WB test to confirm that.
Our first worker completes in Cahokia just as I reach 20T. He is sent to the forest NW of Poverty Point (note: he's on auto-route to there). I've tentatively queued up a settler, but that's debatable.
Notes:
Currently neither of our cities has any troops. One warrior is stationed nearby, another is scouting north, another is scouting south. I guess I'd probably send the south-scout back to Cahokia, but maybe it's easier to just build another MP. Not sure when the noble barbs will attack.
I don't understand the trade-connection. Our borders touch Joao's, but we don't have trade with him. Yet we are trade-connected with Wang even though he's on the east coast and we're on the west. I guess that's good...?
I think we should be able to chop out the GLighthouse in Poverty Point with the one worker. Prechop the forests until math comes in, then finish them off. With luck, our borders will pop before Joao's capital pops again so we can grab a couple more forests.
Wang will have marble, so we may want to prioritize getting our own source of marble for some of those wonders.
I don't think I revealed much land that would update our dotmaps, though the copper is confirmed to be inland and useless.
Save is attached....
darrelljs
Immortal
Compromise, I'm very disappointed you didn't pop a tech from a hut, we are way off plan now . Seriously, looks like the right moves made.
30 + 35 + 20 = 75. I'll bet a lot of money Joao's borders will pop as soon as we hit enter. Poverty Point's borders haven't popped, we are at 8 culture. Joao's getting 2:1 on us, so we need to chop those two forests ASAP. I'm guessing we only get one but let's see. After our border pop, two more forests come inside our borders. I would suggest that the Worker pre-chop those, but we work them until the last second. Grassland Corn + grassland forest + plains forest + plains Elephant will give us 6 hammers per turn, which isn't to be mocked given our situation. The next pre-chops should be to trees south of the inlet. Cahokia's 7 culture/turn will pull those into our borders before we can get the GL anyway, so we might as well wait. Then, the forest SW of the Corn can be an extra-border chop. I think all of that combined will safely get us the GL.
I would continue scouting, if we can't get a connection counter-clockwise, maybe we can clockwise. Ditto for the Warrior up north, let's map out the full outline of our continent. Given that, I think Cahokia needs to be switched to multiple Warriors, maybe even a Dog Soldier or two. Remember we can pre-chop forests outside our cultural borders, so I don't see any need to settle Gems dot until that is done (factoring in the need for a totem pole border pop).
A real bummer about the tundra Copper off the coastal
. That is really going to add a lot of cost to the Colossus.
Darrell
. Seriously, looks like the right moves made.30 + 35 + 20 = 75. I'll bet a lot of money Joao's borders will pop as soon as we hit enter. Poverty Point's borders haven't popped, we are at 8 culture. Joao's getting 2:1 on us, so we need to chop those two forests ASAP. I'm guessing we only get one but let's see. After our border pop, two more forests come inside our borders. I would suggest that the Worker pre-chop those, but we work them until the last second. Grassland Corn + grassland forest + plains forest + plains Elephant will give us 6 hammers per turn, which isn't to be mocked given our situation. The next pre-chops should be to trees south of the inlet. Cahokia's 7 culture/turn will pull those into our borders before we can get the GL anyway, so we might as well wait. Then, the forest SW of the Corn can be an extra-border chop. I think all of that combined will safely get us the GL.
I would continue scouting, if we can't get a connection counter-clockwise, maybe we can clockwise. Ditto for the Warrior up north, let's map out the full outline of our continent. Given that, I think Cahokia needs to be switched to multiple Warriors, maybe even a Dog Soldier or two. Remember we can pre-chop forests outside our cultural borders, so I don't see any need to settle Gems dot until that is done (factoring in the need for a totem pole border pop).
A real bummer about the tundra Copper off the coastal
. That is really going to add a lot of cost to the Colossus.Darrell
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,601
Compromise, I'm very disappointed you didn't pop a tech from a hut, we are way off plan now
No hut techs, no hut gold, no new neighbors, no new cities, just 2 new units.... All in all a rather poor showing indeed!
My one big achievement, however, was to rewrite the known laws of trade so as to connect the west coast to the east coast without known river or coast!
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,601
I think he meant 30+25+20=75 referring to the number of turns per turnset run so far. Then x2 for the palace, so Joao's cap should have 150 culture on this turn.
That said, I think our totem pole will probably push back his culture a little bit....
That said, I think our totem pole will probably push back his culture a little bit....
Kodii
Ka ICE
lurker's comment: As long as you have SOME culture already, Lisbon's border expansion won't cut into your initial nine tiles.
darrelljs
Immortal
Heh-heh...yeah, what Compromise said. I did open the save, we have 8 culture at Poverty Point. So in theory we get those two tiles for another 16, maybe 17 turns. I will predict that we can chop both those forests after all 
. That'll leave some nice barren plains tiles for Joao to steal from us. One other thing on Yellow Dot, we need to chop the forest SE of the Corn (had that wrong to from the previous post, where I called it SW) prior to settling the city to ensure the hammers go towards the GL.
Darrell
P.S. I thought your turns were spot on Compromise, I think we'll all have to get used to slow progress
.
. That'll leave some nice barren plains tiles for Joao to steal from us. One other thing on Yellow Dot, we need to chop the forest SE of the Corn (had that wrong to from the previous post, where I called it SW) prior to settling the city to ensure the hammers go towards the GL.Darrell
P.S. I thought your turns were spot on Compromise, I think we'll all have to get used to slow progress
.Nice progress so far.
I am going to do the following in about 4 hours. Please tell me if there are any problems with this plan:
1. Capital trains Warrior->Settler (yellow dot)->Worker->Settler(Gems)
2. Research goes to Writing->Math->IW->Metal Casting (colossus)
Or should we do Currency before IW?
3. Worker fully chops any forests in danger of falling to Jao's culture.
4. All other units continue exploring.
I am going to do the following in about 4 hours. Please tell me if there are any problems with this plan:
1. Capital trains Warrior->Settler (yellow dot)->Worker->Settler(Gems)
2. Research goes to Writing->Math->IW->Metal Casting (colossus)
Or should we do Currency before IW?
3. Worker fully chops any forests in danger of falling to Jao's culture.
4. All other units continue exploring.
darrelljs
Immortal
Do we need a second Worker? I don't think so but I could be wrong. Also, the pre-reqs for Metal Casting are Bronze Working and Pottery. So we should do Pottery next (we need that anyway) then Metal Casting, and skip Iron Working. I think Currency would be an okay insert after Pottery, but with the GL hopefully coming online it feels less critical.
Darrell
Darrell
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,601
My two cents:
I'd rather have Sullla's input, but I don't think you're doing anything different than what he's recommended.
What about Open Borders when Writing comes in? I'm inclined to say yes--with civs we're connected with--for the extra trade route income.
I'd rather have Sullla's input, but I don't think you're doing anything different than what he's recommended.
In 15T, I guess you'll just get that first settler started. I'd also like to make a pitch for: Gems city next, then marble city. That way, we could be building ToA too. Double trade route income would be quite nice.
After Math, I'd do Wheel->Pottery (per darrell's suggestion) but again that's more than a turnset away.
Watch the cultural percentages after our borders pop. I think we'll be able to pre-chop all forests adjacent to the city and only finish the chopping after Math is in.
I've got one warrior fortified near the gems site. I guess I'd leave him on that hill.
What about Open Borders when Writing comes in? I'm inclined to say yes--with civs we're connected with--for the extra trade route income.
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,601
...oh, and for the sanity of the team, please delete all those signs that Compromise left on the map!
Sorry about messing up Metal Casting pre-reqs. We might still want to learn IW soon, because it'd be a shame to settle coastal city 1 tile away from iron.
I am not sure about 2nd worker either, but that decision is unlikely to come up during my turnset.
I'll sign OB with Korea right away, but I am not sure about Jao. We don't want him expanding into our territory. (Another reason to settle yellow dot quickly is to seal off the borders without having to wait for second expansion at Poverty Point.) So I'll hold off on OB with Jao to hear team's (and particularly Sulla's) opinions.
I don't think we can get both Temple of Artemis and Pyramids at the Gems site. However, the next city will not be founded on my turnset, so there is enough time for number crunching.
I am not sure about 2nd worker either, but that decision is unlikely to come up during my turnset.
I'll sign OB with Korea right away, but I am not sure about Jao. We don't want him expanding into our territory. (Another reason to settle yellow dot quickly is to seal off the borders without having to wait for second expansion at Poverty Point.) So I'll hold off on OB with Jao to hear team's (and particularly Sulla's) opinions.
I don't think we can get both Temple of Artemis and Pyramids at the Gems site. However, the next city will not be founded on my turnset, so there is enough time for number crunching.
We have only 3 Warriors, all of whom are off scouting, and barbarian warriors are showing up already, so I schedule a Warrior(6) in the capital. Poverty Point should be safe because of the fog-busting AIs are doing.
We are surprisingly competitive accoring to Demographics screen, but this will change once AIs start to improve their tiles. In fact, Korea has only 1 city so far. (According to their trade screen.)
As expected, Portugese borders expand the next turn, putting 15% of their culture onto each of the forests north of Poverty Point, and taking over most of the other forests in the area.
It also looks like our "peninsula" is actually half of our entire continent. So if we can secure this entire area, we'll be in great shape. There is copper in the north that appears to be on the coast, but getting it would be a bit of a reach.
Next turn Portugese culture on our forests is up to 24%, so we might not be able to chop either of them. I also see Portugese archer north of our city. I decide not to tempt Jao with such a perfect target and recall nearby fortified warrior to defend the city. (I've seen AI start wars just to steal a worker, and an unprotected city is too tempting, espcially when we are by far the last in Power rating.)
Writing comes in in 2000BC and we go on to Math, due in 30 turns. I immediately open the borders with Korea, but leave the OB with Jao to team's discussion. I think we should open them for relations (and later trade), and simply settle nearby areas quickly, to make going further into our lands unappealing. Just opening the borders with Korea brings ETA on Math down to 27 turns. (Giving us a 2 gpt trade route at the capital.)
The capital completes its warrior in 1975BC and goes on to Settler(20). A barb warrior appears nearby the same turn, so it was a good thing that I trained a Warrior, rather than a Dog Solder.
In 1925, Border expansion at Poverty Point put Portugese culture on northern forests down to 32% from the high of 42% the previous turn, so I might leave this forest to wait for Math (currently due in 23 turns).
Next turn Portugese culture on our forest goes down to 27%, so I decide to leave the forest pre-chopped and move the worker to prechop the other one.
And on my last turn we get the "Failed Marriage" event, giving -1 relations with Portugese. This could cause problems later.
I was diligently scouting coastline, but this means that we don't have a warrior to garrison our city #3. I suggest interrupting Settler build with another warrior. This would also let our capital grow to size 5. (The current happy cap.) Another option is to recall one of the scouting warriors.
Our production is very low, and this already worries me, especially considering the fact that northern half of the continent will get very cramped soon. Perhaps we should have tried rushing Jao after all.
Also, should we sign OB with Jao? I think we have to do it to counter the penalty from bad diplomatic event.
We are surprisingly competitive accoring to Demographics screen, but this will change once AIs start to improve their tiles. In fact, Korea has only 1 city so far. (According to their trade screen.)
As expected, Portugese borders expand the next turn, putting 15% of their culture onto each of the forests north of Poverty Point, and taking over most of the other forests in the area.
It also looks like our "peninsula" is actually half of our entire continent. So if we can secure this entire area, we'll be in great shape. There is copper in the north that appears to be on the coast, but getting it would be a bit of a reach.
Next turn Portugese culture on our forests is up to 24%, so we might not be able to chop either of them. I also see Portugese archer north of our city. I decide not to tempt Jao with such a perfect target and recall nearby fortified warrior to defend the city. (I've seen AI start wars just to steal a worker, and an unprotected city is too tempting, espcially when we are by far the last in Power rating.)
Writing comes in in 2000BC and we go on to Math, due in 30 turns. I immediately open the borders with Korea, but leave the OB with Jao to team's discussion. I think we should open them for relations (and later trade), and simply settle nearby areas quickly, to make going further into our lands unappealing. Just opening the borders with Korea brings ETA on Math down to 27 turns. (Giving us a 2 gpt trade route at the capital.)
The capital completes its warrior in 1975BC and goes on to Settler(20). A barb warrior appears nearby the same turn, so it was a good thing that I trained a Warrior, rather than a Dog Solder.
In 1925, Border expansion at Poverty Point put Portugese culture on northern forests down to 32% from the high of 42% the previous turn, so I might leave this forest to wait for Math (currently due in 23 turns).
Next turn Portugese culture on our forest goes down to 27%, so I decide to leave the forest pre-chopped and move the worker to prechop the other one.
And on my last turn we get the "Failed Marriage" event, giving -1 relations with Portugese. This could cause problems later.
I was diligently scouting coastline, but this means that we don't have a warrior to garrison our city #3. I suggest interrupting Settler build with another warrior. This would also let our capital grow to size 5. (The current happy cap.) Another option is to recall one of the scouting warriors.
Our production is very low, and this already worries me, especially considering the fact that northern half of the continent will get very cramped soon. Perhaps we should have tried rushing Jao after all.
Also, should we sign OB with Jao? I think we have to do it to counter the penalty from bad diplomatic event.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
This was the best news of the turnset, IMO.
It looks like having those tiles be second-ring for us and third-ring for Joao will be enough for us to hold them, at least temporarily. I'm inclined to settle the yellow dot location first, then sign Open Borders with Joao. Once we've got that choke area blocked off, it's extremely unlikely that he'll try to push settlers past us. (And if he does try, we can always cancel the Open Borders agreement!) We should try to improve relations, if only because we've clearly not gone the early war route.
Overall, I'm quite happy with our progress so far. I think we'll be in good long-term shape if we can lock down the southern half of our continent, then make our move later on in the game. (I much prefer that approach to an early rush that the AI isn't programmed to handle.) The lack of copper for a later Colossus build is about the only major quirk the map has thrown at us. Since the AI tends to ignore Metal Casting tech though, maybe that's not as bad as it could be.
I plan on playing later today, so feel free to take a look at the save and offer up any suggestions that you can see.
Compromise
Emperor
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 1,601
I had a quick look at the save. I think we may as well pre-chop the rest of the forests near Poverty Point. With OB with Joao, there's even a forest far to the west of the cities that we should be able to get too (though maybe it won't be worth getting). May as well plan to chop all the forests after Math for the GL.
If interested, I did a quick count of the cost/benefit of 2-pop whipping the settler right now. Basically after 15T, we will have exactly the same amount of food in the granary but at size 3 rather than size 4. We'd've traded that pop point for an extra 29H. And we'd have the settler 11T earlier.
If interested, I did a quick count of the cost/benefit of 2-pop whipping the settler right now. Basically after 15T, we will have exactly the same amount of food in the granary but at size 3 rather than size 4. We'd've traded that pop point for an extra 29H. And we'd have the settler 11T earlier.
Spoiler :
Thanks for that whip calculation. Since the extra pop is working a grassland forest, we'll still end up ahead in production by the time we max out at size 5. So whip looks like the best option. (In fact, it looks like I should have whipped as soon as it was possible to do it.)
About OB with Jao, if we are going to do it, why wait until settling Yellow Dot? Our culture isn't fully blocking the chokepoint now, and will not do so for a while. (Although if the settler is whipped, there will not be much difference.)
About OB with Jao, if we are going to do it, why wait until settling Yellow Dot? Our culture isn't fully blocking the chokepoint now, and will not do so for a while. (Although if the settler is whipped, there will not be much difference.)
darrelljs
Immortal
Nice work Compromise! It is pretty clear this variant will have more problems with hammers than with anything else, I'm sold on the whip. We need Granaries pretty soon.
I guess I don't understand how culture works, I assumed all tiles from Lisbon would give 2 culture/turn, regardless of the ring. That would mean we have 17-19 turns to chop the forests. But if we can wait for Mathematics, that is indeed great news.
Darrell
I guess I don't understand how culture works, I assumed all tiles from Lisbon would give 2 culture/turn, regardless of the ring. That would mean we have 17-19 turns to chop the forests. But if we can wait for Mathematics, that is indeed great news.
Darrell
Similar threads
