RBTS6 - Finally Ready for Noble!

[Compromise]

I don't get the culture calculation either. Or the trade route thing.

For the record, I want to point out that with the whip--trading 39F for 29H plus some "earlyness"--it's not obvious to me that there's an "always better" choice. With a granary, that might be different, but I'd have to recalculate.

 

[Sullla]

If interested, I did a quick count of the cost/benefit of 2-pop whipping the settler right now. Basically after 15T, we will have exactly the same amount of food in the granary but at size 3 rather than size 4. We'd've traded that pop point for an extra 29H. And we'd have the settler 11T earlier.

See, this is why we run the short turnsets in our Realms Beyond succession games. 10 turns may not be a lot early on, especially on Epic speed, but it opens up the opportunity for more team discussion and group involvement. I would have never spotted something like this, and I soundly agree with the logic of whipping. Getting another city up and running 11 turns sooner is easily worth a single population point, even considering the slow speed at which our cities grow in this variant.

(0) 1750BC I whip the settler in Cahokia as discussed above. Yellow dot is going to need a defender, so I queue up a warrior in the capital next, its own defending warrior heading out with the new settler to garrison Yellow. Our worker at Poverty Point doesn't have a whole lot to do aside from continuing to prechop forests... so that's what I have him do.

Our overall military rating stinks bigtime. We'll have to start addressing that in the near future; maybe in Cahokia once it has a chance to stop building settlers? We should be safe until ~1000BC from AI aggression. Still, once they fill up that northern part of the continent, we're likely to be targeted. We CAN upgrade warriors to Dog Soldiers for 110g in an extreme emergency. Don't forget either that we're Protective with Totem Pole unique building - we can build some kickass archers (if we ever get Archery tech, that is! )

(1) 1725BC Get this:



I nearly fall out of my chair laughing! Of all things for the game to suggest! Warrior started in Cahokia (5 turns with overflow from whipping), Judaism FIDL as well this turn. Not on our continent.

(2) 1700BC Barb warrior wandering around causes me to divert Yellow settler, no real danger though. Here's some more info on the culture clash at Poverty Point: on the tiles in our first ring, we have 249 culture points and are adding another 22 per turn; Joao has 51 culture points and is adding 3 per turn. Clearly we're not going to lose these tiles unless he dramatically increases his culture. I'll check the second-ring tiles next turn (I'm using a debug tool to check the plot info here, and no you normally can't do this!)

(3) 1675BC Poverty Point builds lighthouse, starts another of the Great variety. Only due in 100 more turns! We, uhh, might be able to help that along a bit. Stonehenge built in a distant land - looks like that was never more than a pipe dream after all. Good thing we made no attempt at it.

(4) 1650BC We kill two barbs on defense this turn, one in the extreme north and another one that was threatening the Yellow settler. Checking the cultural battle again, we're not going to be getting the 3% tile anytime soon; Joao has 639 culture points there to our 24. Heh. On the tiles that are third-ring to him and second-ring to us (currently reading 70%/29% split), we have 24 culture points increasing at 2/turn, while Joao has 57 culture points increasing at 3/turn. So clearly no shot to grab them right now, but with Great Lighthouse's culture we may be able to flip things around there. Of course... we're definitely going to attack the Portugese at some point, making this a moot point, but I can't resist crunching the numbers anyway!

Both Joao and Wang have units wandering around in the deep south on exploration duty. Probably best not to leave any cities undefended to give them ideas though.

(5) 1625BC Yellow dot becomes Mound City:



This city desperately needs food and culture; culture wins out and I decide to go with a totem pole first. Feel free to swap to a lighthouse if Hinduism spreads here (although... our unique building will retain value for quite some time, so maybe not!) With two cities blocking the choke area, I now sign Open Borders with Joao. If we see him trying to move a settler through, try canceling Open Borders. This ticks our science up from 17 to 19 beakers/turn and Math ETA drops to 8 turns.

(6) 1600BC Cahokia builds warrior for garrison duty. I look over the build list and decide on a barracks. Why? Well, we need to build some military to increase our power rating, and the capital is the best place to do it. Besides, I want to grow the city a little further (to size 4) before popping out another settler or worker, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to build more warriors or dog soldiers with no starting XP. I fully expect us to swap off of barracks when the city grows larger, so this is more "putting shields into something useful" than a set in stone build.

Don't forget either that barracks add significantly to the early power rating!

(7) 1575BC Hinduism spreads on its own in Mound City - very nice! I will now swap it over to a lighthouse, as the culture problem has taken care of itself. Poverty Point has also reached size 3, and is now up to a mind-boggling FIVE shields/turn! (Don't laugh, this is a lot for us right now. Our capital only gets 3/turn... )

(10) 1500BC And that's it. We've pre-chopped four forests at Poverty Point and are moving to chop a fifth one outside our borders. Cahokia is growing at max rate (very slowly!) back towards size 4. Mound City is just getting started. We need granaries in the worst way once we finish researching Math... Looking really good to get Great Lighthouse though, and that's what matters!



Thanks to Open Borders, we have a view of Joao's capital now. His capital is stupidly not placed on EITHER of the rivers in the region , which means it will have to burn eventually. (It IS on fresh water, but on a tiny little lake, not a river.) Horses at Lisbon, so we'll need some spears when a war comes. Hopefully there will be some coastal/river iron out there! I also took the liberty of sketching out some possible future city locations up there in Portugese... we could pick up both horses and ivory...

That's all I have to report. Very routine turns, just as it should be. Let's hope for more smooth turns and a Great Lighthouse finishing in about 25-30 more turns.

Sullla
darrelljs <<< UP NOW
Compromise <<< on deck
Zeviz

 

[Compromise]

...Here's some more info on the culture clash at Poverty Point.... (I'm using a debug tool to check the plot info here, and no you normally can't do this!)

How do you do this?

Don't forget either that barracks add significantly to the early power rating!

I didn't know this either. The great thing about Sullla's SGs is how darn informative they are!

We need granaries in the worst way once we finish researching Math...

Yes, we need to get those cottttt....nevermind


Another good turnset and a great writeup. Things look right on track. I'm still curious to see whether this one is winnable.

Questions (with motivations in parentheses):
1) What is our target completion date for the Pyramids? (When/whether to whip another settler at Cahokia)
2) When will the barbs converge on our poor defense-poor cities? (When to start beefing up the defenses)
3) What is our wonder/great person plan? (Tech, build, specialist orders)
4) City specialization? Cahokia is now on settler and warrior pump. Poverty Point is on GLighthouse duty. Mound city is...a commerce city? Gemsite will grab the Pyramids.
5) Is Iron a priority? With Protective Totem Poles, we can probably generate a decent archer force, but that's not necessarily a good invasion force. Do we consider a cat/archer assault force? (Probably not)
6) Expansion plans? With only two civs on our starting continent, if we wipe one out or cripple it, the other won't trade with us. That might not be so good.

 

[MyOtherCar]

Don't forget either that barracks add significantly to the early power rating!

I didn't know this either. The great thing about Sullla's SGs is how darn informative they are!

Sometimes they even are fun to lurk too!

 

[darrelljs]

Got it, should be playing in about 28 hours. Interesting stuff on the culture, I would have rushed those chops and wasted a bunch of hammers. So, my plan is to go for The Wheel after we finish Bronze Working. I will also queue a Settler after the Barracks finishes in Cahokia. I think it is quite time to settle Gems and get the Pyramids going. I won't even need a Totem Pole, culture from our existing three cities will pull in all the forests.

To me, Mound City looks like a great spot for the Maoi Statues. She has six coast and three ocean tiles. At Epic we need 375/2 = 188 hammers. That is only four forest chops, probably only 3 chops and a couple of Warrior pop rushes. This is a fairly big decision, that Wonder is going to be a major production source, and I think it is likely whatever city gets that will be where we settled our specialists and build Ironworks/Oxford (I'm operating under the assumption we are going in an SSE direction). The other obvious alternative is our Palace, although levees come a long time after Maoi Statues. Thoughts?

1) What is our target completion date for the Pyramids? (When/whether to whip another settler at Cahokia)

I am assuming ASAP! For the GE points and the Representation happiness if nothing else.

2) When will the barbs converge on our poor defense-poor cities? (When to start beefing up the defenses)

No clue .

3) What is our wonder/great person plan? (Tech, build, specialist orders)

Well, I think Libraries and a Scientist(s), which we already have the techs for. Eventually Forges and an Engineer. I guess we want to nab Priesthood eventually so we can build a Temple and get a Priest going for the Kashi Vishwanath.

4) City specialization? Cahokia is now on settler and warrior pump. Poverty Point is on GLighthouse duty. Mound city is...a commerce city? Gemsite will grab the Pyramids.

I think Mound City can be our main city (see conversation above). If we get the Colossus, she can run 10 tiles (the Gems is a 2/2 tile after we remove the Jungle) for a total of 9 hammers and 28 commerce. Add in the city tile, the extra Trade Routes. We'll have to move the Palace though, that is 240 hammers .

5) Is Iron a priority? With Protective Totem Poles, we can probably generate a decent archer force, but that's not necessarily a good invasion force. Do we consider a cat/archer assault force? (Probably not)

I would order as follows: The Wheel/Pottery > Currency > Priesthood > Iron Working > Archery. I think we've missed the rush boat, and that is not a bad thing. If we can get Hinduism to spread we'll be able to tech trade (you can't trade with a lone AI unless you hit Friendly, and I don't see us running HR or Caste System). I don't see any need for a war until we can draft Musketmen, to be honest.

6) Expansion plans? With only two civs on our starting continent, if we wipe one out or cripple it, the other won't trade with us. That might not be so good.

Yeah, I agree...that's what I get for answering these questions linearly .

Darrell

 

[Sullla]

Great questions, Compromise. My own take on some of these issues (following on darrell's nice post).

Questions (with motivations in parentheses):
1) What is our target completion date for the Pyramids? (When/whether to whip another settler at Cahokia)

Darrell said "as soon as possible", which I agree with. But I can be a little more specific too. Let's see... we need about ~10 more turns to grow to size 4 at Cahokia, then another ~10 turns to put some shields into a settler, whip it for 2 population, and move to settle gems city. After that, it should take around 30 or so turns to chop the eight forests we need there, assuming we can start pre-chopping them with our sole worker before founding gems city. So target roughly 50-60 turns from now; I think that puts us somewhere around 500BC (?) Obviously this is all very provisional.

I would try to target circa 500BC for the Pyramids target date, just to make sure we get the wonder. And I think we can do it without much trouble.

2) When will the barbs converge on our poor defense-poor cities? (When to start beefing up the defenses)

Uhh... I don't think they will? This IS Noble again. Besides, barb warriors aren't going to be defeating our own warriors when fortified in cities with defensive bonus. And what else are they going to do - pillage our tile improvements? LOL!

3) What is our wonder/great person plan? (Tech, build, specialist orders)

I assumed that we would mostly be merging Great People into one city as super-specialists, creating one uber city to get around the restrictions of the variant. Representation + Academy + lots of super-specialists = win.

One thing that darrell brought up is the possibility of using a city other than Cahokia for this. (I just assumed that we would go with the current capital.) The notion of moving the capital to Mound City and building Maoi Statues there is intriguing. Not sure that it would be worth it though; maybe better to have two strong cities (capital + Maoi/Mound combo) than just one (?)

4) City specialization? Cahokia is now on settler and warrior pump. Poverty Point is on GLighthouse duty. Mound city is...a commerce city? Gemsite will grab the Pyramids.

Not much to add here, I agree. Coastal cities should generally provide commerce, inland cities will be production ones (since they'll mostly be working forest tiles).

5) Is Iron a priority? With Protective Totem Poles, we can probably generate a decent archer force, but that's not necessarily a good invasion force. Do we consider a cat/archer assault force? (Probably not)

A priority, but a secondary one. We'll be playing defensively for the early part of the game, focusing on developing our civ and settling this nice large southern region of the continent. We can probably get by on archers for quite some time. We WILL need iron eventually, of course. I'm more interested in Iron Working tech for jungle clearance than the resource itself.

6) Expansion plans? With only two civs on our starting continent, if we wipe one out or cripple it, the other won't trade with us. That might not be so good.

Yeah, another reason to play it safe for the moment. We need those trade routes, especially if we land Great Lighthouse!

One other random thought: what if we researched Monotheism and swapped to Organized Religion? That +25% shield boost could be REALLY helpful in a production-starved variant. And does anyone know if that production bonus gets applied to wonders as well (?) That could be huge for us, getting 57 shields/chop instead of 45! Maybe one of the lurkers can help us here...

 

[Zeviz]

Org Rel bonus does apply to wonders. It might even apply to space ship parts. (I can't recall right now, but can check in the evening.)

My answers to the current survey would be:

1) What is our target completion date for the Pyramids?

ASAP. I agree with Sulla about putting Barracks on hold of the settler as soon as capital reaches size 4 and whipping as soon as possible.

2) When will the barbs converge on our poor defense-poor cities? (When to start beefing up the defenses)

Never. This is Noble, non-raging Barbs, regular BtS. So while we might see a single swordsman in late AD, we'll probably have most of the continent settled by then.

3) What is our wonder/great person plan? (Tech, build, specialist orders)

I think Colossus should be our top priority. (Pottery->Metal Casting), because it will add 50% commerce to our best tiles (2f/2c coastal tiles).

Do we want a run at Great Library?

About Maoi Statues, the question is whether we want production now, or the best possible city later. Mound City is a good place for them, but a city 3 west of Sulla's blue dot would get 13 water tiles in its radius. Since I couldn't find any closer spot with more than 10 water tiles, it looks like Mound City is the best we'll have for a while. (A brief examination of all other spots with 10 water tiles didn't reveal anything significantly better, but I was working from Sulla's screenshot on page 2, so it would be better if somebody looked at the latest save before confirming my estimates.) If we don't have any location with more than 10 water tiles in immediate vicinity, I'd start building Maoi Statues as soon as Mound City completes its lighthouse.

4) City specialization?

See above.

After Mound City completes Maoi Statues, it might be able to build Colossus without forest chops. Otherwise, we'll need to found another coastal city before research into Metal Casting completes. After this, I'd cover the coast with commerce cities spaced as closely together as possible.

5) Is Iron a priority?

I'd say no. We are unlikely to go on offensive until drafted gunpowder units, and our Protective totem pole-enchanced Archers and Longbows should be sufficient until then. (There is nothing to pillage in our lands.)

6) Expansion plans? With only two civs on our starting continent, if we wipe one out or cripple it, the other won't trade with us. That might not be so good.

I like the idea of covering coastline with commerce cities, then filling in the continent with a few production cities, taking Nationalism from Liberalism, teching to Rifles, drafting them to Vassalize our continent while teching to Astronomy (will obsolete Colossus), then Vassalizing the other continent.

PS And just to feel safer, I'd put a turn of production into a Dog Soldier at Poverty Point so we could whip it more easily in case of emergency.

PPS Sulla brings up a good point about Org Rel, so we should probably get Monotheism, switch to Org Rel, and spread religion to our wonder cities before forest chops complete. (Assuming they get modified by Org Rel bonus.)

 

[Quotey]

lurker help force: Yes, Organised Religion applies to wonders. They're counted as buildings.

e: oops!

 

[darrelljs]

PPS Sulla brings up a good point about Org Rel, so we should probably get Monotheism, switch to Org Rel, and spread religion to our wonder cities before forest chops complete. (Assuming they get modified by Org Rel bonus.)

Hmm...are you suggesting we research Monotheism prior to The Wheel/Pottery?

Darrell

 

[Zeviz]

Hmm...are you suggesting we research Monotheism prior to The Wheel/Pottery?

Darrell

If Org Rel bonus applies to forest chops, yes. Otherwise, no. (Production will be the main bottleneck for us, so we need to stretch our forests as far as we can.)

 

[Sullla]

Since we do not have Hinduism in Poverty Point, we can probably hold off on Monotheism for the moment. I DO think we'll want to make sure to get the religion into our upcoming gems city and make use of the Organized Religion boost for later Pyramids chopping.

Thanks to everyone who cleared that issue up.

 

[LKendter]

If Org Rel bonus applies to forest chops, yes. Otherwise, no. (Production will be the main bottleneck for us, so we need to stretch our forests as far as we can.)

IIRC it does. I recall having a small city making 2 or 3 shields under OR getting the bonus when there were 20 shields from the chop.

 

[Compromise]

I tested the production multipliers by whipping up a test game. Gave myself a stone quarry, Bronzeworking, Mathematics, Monotheism. I adopted a state religion and Org Religion. Then I chopped a forest. Here's a screenshot:



So yes, Org Religion bonus applies to forest chops and while building wonders.

 

[Zeviz]

Thanks for running the experiment. If you have time, please double-check the calculations on Moai Statue location.

Since we do not have Hinduism in Poverty Point, we can probably hold off on Monotheism for the moment. I DO think we'll want to make sure to get the religion into our upcoming gems city and make use of the Organized Religion boost for later Pyramids chopping.

Thanks to everyone who cleared that issue up.

Wheel and Pottery will give us only Granaries. Monotheism will give Org Rel. Which will be more beneficial?

Mound City:
Granary - no (Lighthouse -> Moai Statues, pending location approval)
Org Rel - yes (buildings all the time)

Poverty Point:
Granary - no (building GL for at least 20 turns)
Org Rel - possible, if religion spreads

Capital:
Granary - yes, but need to train Settler and some Warriors first
Org Rel - no (settler/warrior pump)

Gem City:
Granary - no (needs to start Pyramids right away)
Org Rel - yes, but will require a missionary

So it looks like only 1 of the 4 cities will benefit from a Granary any time soon, while 2 to 3 of them will benefit from Org Rel (depending on how quickly religion spreads). The granary at the capital will allow more efficient chopping of settlers, but I think it can wait for a few more turns, especially considering that we'll need to train a missionary for Gem City as soon as we can.

 

[Compromise]

Good discussion on the earlier questions. It sounds like we're largely in agreement. The only big issue I see largely undiscussed is that of the early Marble-based wonders (ToA, Oracle, GLibrary). But I think our pressing concerns outweigh that discussion right now.

I count 9 water tiles at Mound City. There is a site 4SW of the capital on a deer that has 10 water tiles. Both have 6 coasts, the rest oceans.

I usually neglect to build the big stone heads until much later in the game. Here, I think we should get them into play as soon as we can. My Moai vote goes for Mound City.

For tech, given our reliance on wonders and the fact that none of the early religions were founded by the AIs on our continent, I'm in favor of spending the 10T on Monotheism. Poverty Point can get the extra hammer (need to work at least 4 hammers for 25% to give us a freebie) when it works the elephant. And Mound City can work a forested plains hill to get to 4hpt when not growing (at least until we chop that hill). Plus, we'll probably want a library in Cahokia before too long.

Micro thoughts:
1)Since the GLighthouse is probably crucial for us, I recommend working the elephants at Poverty Point instead of a grass forest. Also, chop one of the plains forests last so it can be worked till the end.

2)When the borders pop at Mound City, I'd work a plains hill forest. That will get the lighthouse done more quickly.

3)Also--and I can't believe I'm saying this--I'm a bit worried about how thin our defense is. Then again, my experience at noble is negligible.

 

[darrelljs]

Okay, I am swayed towards a Monotheism detour. It won't help the GL unless we get a very lucky spread, and it will only marginally help the other cities, but we aren't building Granaries soon anyway. I am also swayed to move one of the citizens to the plains Elephant. The city growth drops from 17 turns to 33 turns, so it is a trade of 34 hammers up front vs. 33 hammers later (net gain of one hammer) at the cost of 17 food. Normally not a trade I would make but the GL is very critical and I don't feel like risking it. We have 3 foreign trade routes now, there is a Portuguese city in the frozen north:



That's good! We will have enough cities to fill out all our trade routes for sure. The only other thing scouting revealed is an extra Stone resource:



The site isn't bad, we get 6 coast, 2 grassland forest and 4 ocean. Too bad it isn't on a plains hill. The extra-border forest at Poverty Point is chopped, as is the westernmost forest. ETA is 24 turns but that will drop rapidly :



I'd chop the two forests at the Worker's current latitude (even though it means going back to the grassland forest), then begin chopping south of the inlet (Cahokia's borders pop in 15 turns). It would be swell to keep the grassland forest for the extra hammer/turn . Cahokia just hit size 4, I did NOT swap to a Settler yet but I think we should do so, then whip the following turn for Gems site. The downside is that our Worker is pretty busy right now with the GL and wont' be able to do much towards the Pyramids, but maybe we get a Hinduism spread.

Darrell

P.S. Forgot to remove the signs .

 

[Compromise]

Report looks like a good turnset. I'd like to play about 9 hours from the time on this post. I believe we're each playing 10T now; let me know if that's wrong.

Haven't looked at the save yet for specifics, but I think our general short-term plan was well hashed out in the posts before Darrell's turnset.

 

[Sullla]

I agree; I think we have a pretty good sense of our goals for the immediate future. Once Cahokia finishes its whipped settler and half-complete barracks, we'll have to decide what to do next in the capital. Military? Library? Missionary for the gems city? I see that as the next minor issue of discussion. Better to wait until after Compromise's turns to figure it out though.

 

[Compromise]

I decided to try some micromanipulation in the hopes of getting a slight advantage.

First, I noticed that our forest chops plus city production would bring the Great Lighthouse in at the same time as working the extra shields would. So, I switched Poverty Point to full growth/commerce (Corn+Coasts).

Then, I noticed that I could get Monotheism in 2T rather than 3T with a couple small tile assignments. So, I did that.

With that slight tech acceleration, I noticed that we could start getting the extra hammer in Mound City at the same time as the border expansion there, so I shot for that.

Also, the Barracks were put on hold in Cahokia so that a settler might get started for GemPyramid city.

I revolted twice (Hindu state religion and Org Religion) before finishing the Great Lighthouse hoping that maybe Hinduism would spread to Poverty Point before those forests were chopped. Though those hopes were in vain, we did get:



...our prime objective. The Great Lighthouse is ours!!!

The rest of the turnset was mundane. A barb warrior appeared east of our returning explowarrior. I fortified, but he danced around me! Now, I'm fortified again trying to draw his fire.

Our empire can be seen nicely in this overview:



Items to notice:
Our northern warrior is returning from his scouting duties. He can probably be garrisoned at Poverty Point to dissuade Joao or at Mound City to help fend off barbs. I lean slightly toward the latter.

A barb warrior is west of our just-fortified eastern warrior. I'm trying to get that warrior to the gems site, but also trying to draw the barb into attacking me while I'm on good defensive terrain. At this point, he is frustrating me by avoiding me. Now, we might not be able to man the gems site before the settler gets there. Grrrr.

Next turn, the settler should be whippable and sent to start on the Pyramids.

One more turn and the forest the worker is on will be fully pre-chopped. (2 chops to go after this turn).

I recommend not chopping any forests to completion for the Pyramids for as long as possible or until after Hinduism spreads to it to get the Org Rel bonus on the chops. It--the new city--can get a hammer bonus by working a plains hill forest until border expansion brings in the floodplains.

I deleted the Totem Pole from the queue in Mound City so it wouldn't accidentally get built. When the lighthouse there completes, I recommend growing it by working coastal tiles.

Note: I'm pretty sure that in BtS, a forest that's within the borders of two cities will send its chop-hammers to the city that is actively controlling the square. So, when we chop for the Pyramids, make sure that any forest that's shared by Mound City or Cahokia is being controlled by the gem city.

Additionally, if we don't have to chop all the forests for the Pyramids, we should be selective. Forests give us health, so we want to save them if possible, or in the case of Mound City, save them to chop the pre-Colossus forge (assuming we're going for the Colossus)

With culture of the Great Lighthouse, we are gaining influence over more overlap Joao tiles!

The last thing our northern explowarrior saw in Joao's capital was two archers and three chariots. We'd better keep an eye on his "We have enough..." standing.

At size 4, Poverty Point is unhealthy! Maybe we should trade for a health resource? Maybe not.

Next builds:
I set Poverty Point on a Library to help push back Joao's borders, but that could be changed. Probably better to switch it to a granary in a couple of turns when Pottery comes in. Then back to the library or troops?

After whipping the Settler, Cahokia can either build a granary (might delay whip until after Pottery is in to send overflow to it) or finish its barracks.

Mound City: After lighthouse, start on granary or Moai? Maybe build Moai, then at size 4, whip a granary for max overflow into Moai?

Gem city: probably just work on the 'mids.

Tech:
Pottery in a couple turns, then what? Metalcasting for Colossus (presumably in Mound City where it and the required forge will take forever)? Or head toward Aesthetics->Literature to try for the Great Library? I'd let one of the AIs on our continent get to Alphabet first.

Save is attached

 

[Zeviz]

Good job with micromanagement. It's good that we secured the first of our "must have" wonders.

After Pottery, should we get archery and train a few archers in Poverty Point? (I am very worried about those 3 Chariots, especially considering that our Dog Soldiers wouldn't even be a speedbump for them.)

Also, how long will Moai Statues take in Mound City? What about Colossus and Forge built naturally after Moai Statues?

My tech plan is to go Pottery->Archery-> either Metal Casting or Astetics->Literature, depending on when we can start building Colossus.

Also, when do Colossus, Great Library, and Temple of Artemis usually get built on Noble? (And I wonder how Temple of Artemis works, but I can experiment with that this evening.)

For builds, I like the idea of Moai Statues interrupted with whipped granary for Mound City, and think Poverty Point should train at least one archer.

What about building Totem Pole and a couple of CG3 Archers from the Capital?