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RBTS6 - Finally Ready for Noble!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Sullla, Apr 10, 2008.

  1. daniel smith

    daniel smith Chieftain

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    What if the almighty Sid decides to build a pasture with a road to you ?
     
  2. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

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    What might be more annoying is if an AI decides to road inside your territory because he has a city on both side... You might be better declaring on him to prevent going into WB every 2/3t, :)
     
  3. sooooo

    sooooo Chieftain

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    lurker's comment: Why is the pyramids so important? You don't have any food for specialists. I would have thought the great lighthouse was much more of a priority. You don't need tile improvements to get trade routes, just plenty of cities. TGL was very valuable in my no cottage, no lightbulb games.
     
  4. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    lurker's comment: sooooo is right... you need wonders that will boost per city and not per citizen. The great Lighthouse, the religious three ( AP, Sankore, Minaret )..... maybe collosus.
    The Mids will not add much because of the inherent lack of food for specialists
     
  5. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    sooooo,

    I don't disagree that GL is going to be highly useful, but I disagree about the Pyramids. All cities can run at least one Scientist, and hopefully some will be able to run 2. That, plus the Wonder we do manage to land, plus Philosophical means we will land a decent number of Great Persons, which also benefit from Representation when settled.

    Turns completed, report in the works :).

    Darrell
     
  6. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

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    I would have agree with Sooooo, on this map and with your restriction, 1 specialist means 2 plain-forrests not being worked (in term of food, since it is quite unlikely that you will often reach happy or health limit).
    trading a specialist for 4 hammers doesn't seems to be an excellent deal on a regular basis. (In fact without representation, I would almost never consider it)
    Now, since you will need to also build some infrastructure (libraries for ex) with little production, I am not sure you will spend lots of time with specialists
     
  7. dazedroyalty

    dazedroyalty Si Bijaksana

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    The Pyramids will definitely be less helpful than normal, but if you play right they will still be able to benefit you. It's hard to tell though what will be the "best" with this variant! I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.
     
  8. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    Okay, played 25 turns. I poke around and notice something that Sulla might have missed :mischief::



    So Joao's pretty close. Capital pressue is going to be right on top of Poverty Point. In fact, once he gets his third border pop, we won't have any forest tiles to work if we don't get a border pop of our own. Stone still has to be the target, and no delays! I continue scouting our land, having three Warriors early helps quite a bit in that department, us Worker first people aren't used to it. Mining comes in and I select Bronze Working (an event would speed this up to the tune of 23 beakers :cool:). Joao is sloppy popping huts near his capital, and it pays off in spades for us:



    On the downside, we lose our easternmost Warrior to a Lion but I think Masonry still made that a pretty good turn. Our newly designated easternmost Warrior finds another hut amongst some Gold, and it gives him, well, gold (28). After sweeping out the fog in the middle he heads over to a nice hill that combined with the extra border pop from Hinduism and Joao's proximity allows a fog busted path to the Stone for our Settler, allowing the other Warrior to continue exploring. Wang Kon found us, and this guy eventually found Wang Kon:



    He is due east of Joao and north of the choke point, of course. You can see I selected Sailing after Bronze Working. I also started another Warrior after the Settler completed. I noodled on a Dog Solider but we need quantity, not quality right now. I'm banking on Noble barbarians to be a bit later, and we can always use them for garrison. Poverty Point was founded on my final turn:



    Ouch on the 1.42 distance from Palace maintenance. I queue up a Totem Pole, no hammers invested. Other things are important, but again once Joao gets his third border pop we lose all useful tiles. It also completes the seal :). Now, my passionate defense for Gems as the next city site:



    Those forests are the Pyramids, with enough food left over to run a plains forest and a 2 GPP/6 beaker scientist specialist (net 5 GPP for this city). The other reason would be a dearth of good spots. Here is our land with river highlighting:



    It is kind of hard to tell with all the fancy colors, but here is what each city brings to the table:

    #2 - 1 plains forest, a scientist, 8 chops, Gems
    #3 - 3 grassland forest, a scientist, 5 chops
    #4 - 2 grassland forest, a grassland horse, a scientist, 8 chops, Wine
    #5 - 3 grassland forest, plains forest, plains forest incense, 5 chops, Deer

    Marble is definitely coastal, we'll want to found it for the GL eventually. I zoomed in and around the Copper tile. I think she might be coastal, only time will tell. I believe the Gems, Wine (both wines), Deer and any other resource should be traded for cash as soon as we have Currency, so they should be considered 10ish gold each. True it won't be for a little while, but who else thinks Currency is the next tech to go for after Mathematics?

    Good luck to the next guy :).

    Darrell
     

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  9. Compromise

    Compromise Chieftain

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    Nice turns and great writeup, especially that map!

    Poverty Point will probably need to be our Great Lighthouse city. Unfortunately, that may require Joao's demise--at least his capital--to allow sufficient forests to chop.

    I should be able to run some turns late Sat night, though plans in the works might delay that a day.

    Suggested plan: build dogs or worker in Poverty Point (hope for Hindu spread for border pop). Grow cap to size 4 then build settler (whip to completion) and worker, dogs. Tech toward math.

    (Extremely minor micromanagement point: I probably would have switched to Slavery while the settler was en route so as not to lose a production turn in the new city, but that's really a very minor point.)
     
  10. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    You know, I debated that but after noodling on it I figured we would never use the whip. Without food resources all the math on whip efficiency seems suspect to me (even though I realize the basic relationships don't change). It also implies Granaries since the grow back time is so slow, and that's a pretty big hammer investment. I guess I should run through a couple of use cases and figure out if we are better off whipping citizens on forests or not, unless you've already figured it out :mischief:.

    Darrell
     
  11. Zeviz

    Zeviz Chieftain

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    Good turnset. Looks like we've had very nice hut luck in this game, especially with Masonry pop.

    I disagree with proposed city placement. All our commerce will be coming from coastal cities, so we should found them right away. Any coastal city can give 17 commerce at size 8 with just lighthouse and no wonders or other buildings. The inland cities have 0 long-term potential. While selling resources for gpt is good for diplomatic bonuses, you can only get 1-2 gpt in early game and 3-4 in mid-game. At that time, Great Lighthouse-assisted coastal cities will be getting extra 6-8 commerce from trade routes alone, and about 8 commerce from Colossus.

    I also agree that Great Lighthouse and Colossus are at least as important as Pyramids, because we will be running almost no specialists in this game. (Please show me a city site that can support two scientists while having enough production to actually build a library and enough food to be more than a 2-scientist mini-city.) Pyramids will probably be used mostly to boost GL's scientists and settled Great People (even Great Generals benefit from Representation).

    So my suggestion is to place city #3 on the coast, in a place where we could chop Great Lighthouse and still have enough production left for Colossus. (A plains hill that can share ivory with Poverty Point is the first candidate that comes to mind. Or a coastal hill (are they plains hills?) that can share corn with capital for faster initial growth.)

    As for long-term plans, my guess is that Sulla wants to vassalize the world with drafted Rifles. (A strong coastal economy will put us ahead of AIs financially on this food-poor map. So production will be the biggest handicap, and this is where drafting comes int.)

    EDIT: About whipping, most of our cities will work coastal tiles, so whipping will be main production method for them. We will also need granaries for growth, because it will take a long time to reach size 10 with no food resources.
     
  12. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    Okay, I didn't focus on the coastal sites and I'm sure we'll want those, but do you really think we should settle them prior to completing the GL and/or Colossus? It is pretty clear from your comments that you are seeing a fairly different opening to this game than I am :). I'm not saying it is wrong, BTW, but I don't know that the emphasis on coastal should happen before we've exploited our forested interior. There are some cases where both are possible of course, for example #5. It seems like an ideal spot for the GL, and it will also bust some eastern fog. Maybe it should get bumped to #3.

    Darrell
     
  13. Zeviz

    Zeviz Chieftain

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    Yes, it sounds like we need to agree on strategy before settling any more cities. The options I see are:

    1. Spam as many coastal cities as we can, chopping Great Lighthouse and Colossus. Settle a single inland city for chopping Pyramids after settling Great Lighthouse city.
    Positive: very strong economy in the medium-long run. Lots of commerce.
    Negative: no early wars, so we'll be locked in on our peninsula.

    2. Train some Dog Soldiers and "relieve culture pressure from Stone City", giving Jao an early exit.
    Positive: lots of room for expansion. AI capital might have good tiles, even unimproved.
    Negative: we will likely miss at least some wonders we are targeting. (Unless the rush can be done very quickly, with minimal investment.) Maintenance on Portugese cities might be expensive.

    3. Settle inland cities and chop Pyramids and an army from there.
    Positive: strong early burst of production.
    Negative: Likely to miss Great Lighthouse, and having to pay maintenance for several cities that are useless after forests are gone.

    I would prefer option 1, but option 2 also looks good. I think option 3 would prove weaker in the long run.

    What do you think? Did I miss anything in this summary?

    PS About proposed city 5, would we have to scout out the entire coastal road for it to be connected to our trade network? (And what would happen if that coastal road was blocked by an iceberg?)
     
  14. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    I think you did an excellent job of summarizing our options :goodjob:. I'm going to hold off posting more opinions to give other team members a chance to chime in first.

    Darrell
     
  15. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    OK, time for a lengthy response. I'm loving the discussion we're having so far, please keep it up everyone! :D

    Popping Masonry was an excellent move, haha! I'm really glad I squeezed out that third early warrior, we've done extremely well in terms of scouting and hut results in this game. Saved us a cool 10 turns in the beeline towards Mathematics. I concur that Sailing is the logical next tech to pursue for now, then Writing -> Math. (I think we can skip Pottery/Granaries for the time being and come back to it - does anyone disagree?)

    We could likely get another religion by going to Monotheism right now, but I don't think it's worth it. One is plenty.

    Let's see... With stone + Math, each forest chop is worth 90 shields towards the Pyramids, so those 8 forests will get us 720 shields. Pyramids cost 750 shields, so that will surely be enough to get it. Well, I'm sold on settling the gems site and using it for that purpose, then having a runt city left over to run a couple of specialists afterwards. Since we can't get higher than size 6 there anyway for lack of food, THAT is the proper place to "waste" forests by ruthlessly chopping them down.

    However - there's no reason to make gems site our NEXT city location. I concur with Zeviz that we should probably pick another coastal location next and get to work on Great Lighthouse there. (So long as we start chopping Pyramids around ~700BC, there's no way the AIs should be us to it. Not on Noble...)

    I flat-out don't like locations #3 or #4 on darrell's dotmap. #4 is OK if and only if that river empties out into the sea. Remember, landlocked cities are almost worthless in this game, unless they happen to be on a river. Here's some alternate thoughts I had after looking at the map:



    The gems site is marked with a green dot. Yellow dot is the best available spot I can find in the immediate vicinity of our start. Lots of coastal tiles and four grassland ones, although several of them are covered by jungle. It will be a slow starter, not much production, but very strong in terms of commerce. Not enough forests to do any early chopping though... If we must place an inland city, purple dot seems like the best location to do it. Six grassland tiles will let it reach size 8, or (more likely) size 7 with a specialist. If we have a sea outlet from that river, this location can be changed. I concurred with darrell's spot #5, which I marked with a blue dot. White dots are potential later sites, some of which I marked with question marks for later discussion.

    I don't see any place to chop the Great Lighthouse other than Poverty Point (in other words, agree with Compromise). There's just no other place nearby that will work. This means that we'll have to do some serious long-term damage to its growth potential - unavoidable though! It will just have to fall on the sword for the greater good. :p We may want to get a worker up there soon and start pre-chopping, so we can finish off a bunch of forests once Math arrives. That suggests that maybe Cahokia should build a worker next after it finishes the current warrior (?) It should take 4 or 5 chops to ensure the Lighthouse (at 45 shields each, post-Math). I think we can do it, though I'd go right to Great Lighthouse after the totem pole completes there.

    I guess that's it for now. We may need to re-evaluate some of this info after another turnset of fog-busting. :)
     

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  16. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    Sulla,

    I partially agree with your updated dotmap, #3 is a wasted spot. However, I'll give you 10:1 odds that #4 will spill in the river, and being able to sell that Wines resource makes the city more useful than your Magenta dot. Also, your talk about chopping the GL in Poverty Point implies a dog soldier rush on Joao, because Lisbon's borders will take away most of those forests. I actually think we are better off plunking down your Yellow Dot and chopping out a Lighthouse and then the GL there. Note that we should wait to finish the last chops until we are almost done, since there are not nearly enough forests to get the job done by chopping alone.

    Now that someone else has replied I don't feel so bad about commenting on Zeviz's options. Basically, I agree with your #1, but my focus is more on the Pyramids part of it :lol:. There is no rush to settle Gems, we can pre-chop those forests without them being in our cultural borders. Lets grab Sulla's Yellow Dot, go to work on the GL, then grab the Gems dot and go to work on the Pyramids. We'll need both to have a shot in this game, so I don't see it as a lack of focus. In the meantime, we scout out the coast and figure out the rest of the cities in whatever order we like, with Deer dot likely being in there somewhere.

    Darrell
     
  17. Zeviz

    Zeviz Chieftain

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    If we are looking at Sulla's yellow dot for Great Lighthouse, that makes it even more important to get definite answers to the following:

    1. Will that city be connected to our trade network before we fully explore the coast?

    2. Will that city be connected to our trade network if the southern passage is blocked by ice?

    Chopping out Great Lighthouse with no access to Stone might be a bit painful.

    As for the course of action, the more I think about it the more I lean towards letting Jao live:

    1. We'll have to settle the entire coast to prevent Barbarian borders from disrupting trade routes, so we'll have plenty of cities on which to pay maintenance even on our peninsula. (There are 8 dots on Sulla's map, and room for at least 4 more coastal cities on our peninsula, which would bring our total to 14 - a very respectable empire for this map size.)

    2. Tech trading partners are very important, and if there are 3 AIs on our continent, eliminating one of them will make the other one unwilling to trade, because he'll consider every tech to be a monopoly tech. Also, if we build Great Lighthouse, the more foreign trade the better.

    3. We just don't have enough production for elevated military levels an early war will cause. (Once AIs see their nieghbors building troops, they start to build troops themselves, and everybody ends up in an arms race.)
     
  18. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    Except the GL is not accelerated by Stone, so I don't think any of that matters ;). My biggest concern with Yellow Dot is the low forest count, I guess by the time our next Settler is ready we might have a better spot in mind (still looking at Deer dot to be honest).

    Darrell
     
  19. Zeviz

    Zeviz Chieftain

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    oops (I was convinced GL uses stone.)

    If by Deer dot you mean light blue, I am worried about distance (both in terms of maintenance and in terms of how far settler and workers would have to walk, as well as the need for military protection for workers going to and from that site). How much does GL cost? (And how much does a forest chop give?)
     
  20. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    Great Lighthouse is 300 shields, I believe. Forest chops give 45 shields on Epic speed. That's why I said 4-5 chops sounds like the target number for whatever city builds the Great Lighthouse.

    We DO need to finish exploring that southern coast for trade route purposes. I'm pretty sure that it's not all pure ice down there; at least, my prior experience with Ice Age map has been that there's usually some sea lanes in the extreme north and south. Let's hope so!

    I'm less than concerned about barbs. Remember, this is NOBLE difficulty again. Barb cities don't even spawn with archers for defense; I think they spawn with warriors on garrison duty. (Not 100% sure of this, it's been a very long time!) If they do start with an archer, it's only a single one, not the 3 that they start with on Emperor. Oh, and we get a nice combat boost against barbs for lowered difficulty as well. Frankly, I'd LIKE to see some coastal barb cities pop up. Either we save the cost of a settler, or we get some razing cash on the cheap. :hammer:
     

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