RBTS9 - Final Frontier

[T-hawk]

Going over things in more detail -

Synthetic Composites looks good. It enables Nutrition Facility, +1 food on a planet; Star Fortress, basically walls; cash trading (like Currency); and Technocracy government (+15% research). Also in the government category, we just got Democracy at Galactic Epistemology. It's +3 happy (as Representation) and enables cash rushing. That's not better than Monarchy.

The other tech options are Gravity Training (invasion ships and barracks), Survivalism (fighter squadrons, interplanetary beacons [monuments] which we don't need), both of which are clearly trade backfills later. Domestic Development is the other builder option, enabling banks and a health building, but is more expensive than Synth and will also get a prereq discount from it.

I'm not quite sure what the northeasternmost scout ship is doing, it looks like it started moving back towards home about one or two turns ago? Let it continue depth-first exploration - we want some contacts - it's easier to just build more ships at home.

Pi Anubis was founded, as Eden, and the 2-2-1 size-2 planet goes to 3-3-2 with the free facilities. But it will still take 19 turns to grow to size 2. Not sure what to build here. Final Frontier has no automatic first build like a granary in standard Civ. Most often I start with a nutrient or mining facility on the next planet, but the planet we want to improve here (1-2-3 size 3) lies in the second ring of influence. I guess the most useful thing it can do is spam some defense ships, so that Paradise can stick to pure colony ships.

Paradise finished the conship, which started building a warp lane towards Pi Anubis. Which is also towards our next two settling targets. Horus Taurus can wait. Paradise started a colony ship next. The timing is just about right to finish this and then grow to size 5 as the Advocate of Knowledge gets here. I really want to see Rho Libra founded quickly to get that size-2 Earthlike planet into play. Plus it's a forward outpost for a squadron to scout from. Actually, that means that the movement works out to send Eden's current defender on ahead while it builds a replacement.

On turn 63, we ran out of money and had to dial the science slider down to 70%. Also on turn 63, in the southeast:

We have contact! (Don't adjust your JPEGs, the leader heads really do look like that. In-game, there's a shimmery holographic effect that looks much better than the static pic.) It is Lu Tianqu of the Avowers, the researcher faction. The F4 screen tells us that he does not know Planetary Construction and Gal Epistemology and Gravity Training. He does know Light Craft Manufacturing and Orbital Engineering. He is in Monarchy. He has one city besides his capital.

On turn 65, Paradise has finished the colony ship. Advocate of Wealth is also finished, so it's time for Paradise to grow. I decide to do the squadron factory -> squadron now. I will admit that that's in part so we can have the cool toy to play with.

Turn 66 sees Vladimir Korovin, the leader of the Red Syndicate, make contact with us! Our contact ship turns out to be right outside his second system, due east of Paradise and a long way away. We have only Planetary Construction up on him; he has only Gravity Training up on us. He too is in Monarchy. He founded Wealth. Vladimir and Lu do not have contact with each other.

Turn 69 brings contact with Kanji Takeno of the Halis Planned State, also in the southeast. He has Survivalism up on us; we have LCM, Planetary Construction, and Gal Epi up on him. He doesn't even have Gravity Training. I have no idea what he's been researching. He has NO systems besides his capital. He is not in Monarchy. He has contact with Lu but not Vlad.

Systems discovered:

Tau Hades in the west, another fast-start (size 2 Earthlike) but low ceiling system.
Gamma Virgo in the west, a spectacular commerce system (5 population worth of gems planets!) but seriously deficient in food.
Gemini Omicron in the southeast - spectacular! 14 pop ceiling, 8 of it in first ring!
Thoth Theta (not "Horus Taurus" quality but close) in the south, yet another fast-start low-ceiling.

BTW, the correct tile for our starbase is indeed the original sign (not 1N as the sign might suggest.) That puts it next to the gold resource while 1N puts it next to the hydrogen. Starbases can't attack through asteroid tiles, so this starbase can only attack adjacent to itself, and the gold resource is more important to protect (losing hydrogen to a pillage is no big deal; losing +3 happy is killer).

Feel free to change the build on Horus Taurus; I couldn't decide what to build there. I don't think a mining facility is correct now - best to save that for the Earthlike planet in third ring. (The holy city status is a great boon, getting to 500 influence much sooner to snag that planet.)

Paradise will finish our bomber squadron this turn. Then I think it wants to do a colony ship to race for Gemini Omicron. That system is spectacular and it's right on Halis's doorstep - it would be a great coup to snatch it! (Or if you're feeling REALLY bold, redirect our current colony ship there!) As for the bomber squadron, rebase it to each system in turn and scout everything it can reach. Have fun.

We will have our first trade lane connection next turn. I think the conship should continue roading towards Rho Libra, perhaps by way of the starbase field.

I didn't make any trades - the only thing to get is Survivalism. Lu Tianqu actually would trade it for only our maps. I don't know if we should - how well if at all can the AIs use map information?

 

[T-hawk]

And a big huge overview, and a save game:

sooooo <--- Up Now
Cyneheard / mojo <--- On Deck

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

The AIs exist! I forgot how much later contact came when huts weren't popping Destroyers left and right...

If we sell our maps for tech, we should do it to everybody at the same time. I have no idea if the AI uses map information, but it's still a cash and tech cow the one time we want to use it. Maybe the moment we get the full set of contacts? Or sell our maps now, picking up Survivalism, Gravity Training (if Vlad's willing to trade at all), and hopefully some cash? Or we could flip Planetary Construction to Vlad for Gravity Training, but Gravity Training's really cheap; PC should get us the 2nd military tech from him, as well, since PC's more expensive.
I don't trust one AI not to resell the map to the others. Later in the game, we can pick up pennies by selling a map that has new extra tiles, such as, say, a bomber recon flight over a giant impassable nebula .

I think we should grab Gemini Omicron now. I'm not sure it's quite a "Pink Dot", but it's the best system we've seen yet, and it's clearly settling in the teeth of the Templars...I mean...Halis.

 

[Olodune]

Only side note - do we want to keep naming systems after the planets, or use the Paradise city names with Horus Taurus as the exception?

I say stick with the default Paradise names -- I for one have never seen them before.

Finally some contact! Looks like we're not in a sandbox after all

I think we need more of everything .... but Colony and Construction ships are probably the priority.

When do we want to build our Starbase? I'm guessing we need at least 3-4 more construction ships for that to make sense, but I would rather not wait too long -- our Bureaucracy Capital could use the cap space!

 

[timmy827]

I like grabbing Gemini Omicron with this colship, although the fastest route is to have the PDS by Halis go there and the colship rendezvous, which involves moving through some fog - have we seen any barbs yet? We could use the bombers to help fogbust the route.

Would stick with 2 more colships after that for the Libra systems.

Opinions on next tech? I like factories over Domestic Development.

Note that Planetary Construction (350) is not enough to trade for Survivalism (210, and further devalued) due to the crazy AI cost discounts. With many WFYABTA limits tight (5), I lean towards making that trade now if we want it - but it seems plausible we could go the whole game without survivalism.

We don't see Lu's territory right? Which direction was contact made in?

 

[T-hawk]

I didn't think of sending the current colship to Gemini Omicron until doing the writeup and the screenshot at the end. It could've been a few tiles closer to the target, though unescorted. Fogbusting with the bomber will be key. Combined-arms landgrabbing.

I agree with colships for the Libra systems after that. sooooo can do the micromanagement to decide if we get the two Libra colships there faster by building them right away or by building another conship or two first to build roads.

My thought on starbase timing is to do it when Horus Taurus and Eden also need the happy. Bureaucracy is nice, but 100% of a new system is better than 50% to an existing system. This will take some planning ahead to dispatch a conship and start saving cash at the right time.

No, we don't see Lu's territory. Contact was made in the southeast by the same ship that discovered Halis.

No barbs anywhere yet. I had an unsettling thought - is it possible that the mod interprets "No Tribal Villages" as "No Pirates" ?

 

[Olodune]

My thought on starbase timing is to do it when Horus Taurus and Eden also need the happy. Bureaucracy is nice, but 100% of a new system is better than 50% to an existing system. This will take some planning ahead to dispatch a conship and start saving cash at the right time.

These are funny numbers -- especially from someone who is usually as precise as you The +3 cap space on our capital will allow it to grow from 5->8, but each citizen is more valuable than normal (by some number less than +50% since food is unaffected by Bureaucracy). However, once multipliers are built on Paradise those extra population points are increasingly valuable due to the multiplicative nature of the civic with multiplier buildings.

There are at least three systems to the south that are worth grabbing before building that SB, I think.

 

[timmy827]

These are funny numbers -- especially from someone who is usually as precise as you The +3 cap space on our capital will allow it to grow from 5->8, but each citizen is more valuable than normal (by some number less than +50% since food is unaffected by Bureaucracy). However, once multipliers are built on Paradise those extra population points are increasingly valuable due to the multiplicative nature of the civic with multiplier buildings.

There are at least three systems to the south that are worth grabbing before building that SB, I think.

On 2nd thought, I'd argue against growing too - I don't think we have any big pressing needs on the tech front but want a lot of expansion, so growing the homeworld to work the 1-1-7's is not so attractive.

 

[ashain]

As for the bomber squadron, rebase it to each system in turn and scout everything it can reach. Have fun.

Actually I think I remember from my tests of this that bombers can't scout. I know fighters can but bombers don't get the binoculars icon like in regular civ.

One thing i'd like to mention that was a bit of a shock to me is just how effective Squadron Defense Networks are. I tried attacking a star system with a medium stack, couple battleships, destroyers and a fighter filled carrier for escort, and a bomber carrier for assault. The system was only defended by about 4 PDS. The bombers were only doing 4-5% per attack! The ships were literally healing to full between turns.

Thankfully the computer didn't seem to build them very often, but i'm pretty sure assaulting a system with one of them and a star fortress would be rather grueling.

 

[T-hawk]

Actually I think I remember from my tests of this that bombers can't scout. I know fighters can but bombers don't get the binoculars icon like in regular civ.

Hey, if that's true, thanks very much for the heads-up. In that case, we probably do want to trade for Survivalism now, which enables fighter squadrons, and build one.

Squadron Defense Networks are the same as Bunkers in regular civ. I've never tried to attack into a bunker - they come so late that either the player has already won by conquest or is planning for a peaceful victory.

 

[ashain]

Ya, the SDN's are pretty early techwise in FF and very cheap to build if I remember right, I think my test was on epic speed and they were around 4 turns to build, and given how powerful bombers are in this mod they're a very nice investment. On the other side the AI never attacked me with bombers so never got much use after I spammed them myself

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Actually I think I remember from my tests of this that bombers can't scout. I know fighters can but bombers don't get the binoculars icon like in regular civ.

Bombers can't be set to intercept, but both types can recon. In my test game, all air units recon an 11x11 square around the square you target for the recon, so within 5 squares in each direction.

One thing i'd like to mention that was a bit of a shock to me is just how effective Squadron Defense Networks are. I tried attacking a star system with a medium stack, couple battleships, destroyers and a fighter filled carrier for escort, and a bomber carrier for assault. The system was only defended by about 4 PDS. The bombers were only doing 4-5% per attack! The ships were literally healing to full between turns.

Thankfully the computer didn't seem to build them very often, but i'm pretty sure assaulting a system with one of them and a star fortress would be rather grueling.

Invasion ships are critical to actually taking worlds: they're quite cheap and easy to mass. I primarily use bombers to bombard defenses, and to hit units, especially battleships and starbases, in the open field. A few bits of collateral to ensure my invasion ships have odds is usually sufficient to keep their losses low. An assault of 2 carriers (mostly bombers), a battleship or two, and 10 invasion ships can knock over worlds like that very quickly and easily.

And I just ran a test game: With No Tribal Villages on, there weren't any villages on the map, and I did see barbarians as of turn 55 (maybe they were there earlier), but there weren't many.

 

[ashain]

Bombers can't be set to intercept, but both types can recon. In my test game, all air units recon an 11x11 square around the square you target for the recon, so within 5 squares in each direction.

Hrm maybe that was it, I thought there was something different about bombers but I guess not. Either way they're definately crucial for defense, 2x pds and a bomber will keep all but very determined stacks away.

Invasion ships are critical to actually taking worlds: they're quite cheap and easy to mass. I primarily use bombers to bombard defenses, and to hit units, especially battleships and starbases, in the open field. A few bits of collateral to ensure my invasion ships have odds is usually sufficient to keep their losses low. An assault of 2 carriers (mostly bombers), a battleship or two, and 10 invasion ships can knock over worlds like that very quickly and easily.

Definitely agreed here, invasion ships and pds of the same level are basically a wash when it comes to attack/defense before anything else added, +200 city attack vs +200 city defense. Although I seem to recall that invasion ships might get one first strike?

And I just ran a test game: With No Tribal Villages on, there weren't any villages on the map, and I did see barbarians as of turn 55 (maybe they were there earlier), but there weren't many.

They seem to take a while to show up, but one of the flaws with the mod imo is that like regular civ they spawn in fog... well FF maps are large and full of tons of empty space, so unless you spend a lot of investment into starbases/fogbusting units the barb threat is fairly constant, albeit not very worrysome. Another thing I noticed is the pirates are VERY fond of pillaging warp lane networks, especially the usual one lane tenuous networks you have between stars. Mostly this is tiresome, but when you have big systems that depend on happiness resources it can be irritating.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Another thing I noticed is the pirates are VERY fond of pillaging warp lane networks, especially the usual one lane tenuous networks you have between stars. Mostly this is tiresome, but when you have big systems that depend on happiness resources it can be irritating.

True. However, there are 2 ways to deal with this: the cheap way, and the easy way.
The cheap way: Fighter and bomber patrols to catch the barbs in time to fly a destroyer/cruiser/battleship at them. Unless we have a world really removed, like 12-20 tiles away from the rest of our space, this should work.
The easy way: have 2-lane networks. Especially once we get jump lanes (railroads), we'll be able to react in plenty of time. It just requires lots of worker labor. Also, with normal Barbs, this won't be quite as bad an issue.

 

[sooooo]

Hmmmkay. So my turnset I'll try to found our Pink Dot, right outside the borders of that red civ over there.

I think I'll build a construction ship at Paradise before the colony ships.

T71: Eden begins another PDS and I rebase our bomber here.

T72: Our bomber spots a pirate PDS, rather annoyingly in the flight path of our colony ship to Pink Dot.

T73: But our colony ship can outrun the slow pirate! Oh how it laughs at that silly, slow pirate. We complete Synthetic Composites!



Which enables ... nothing useful. We begin Streamlined Production.

T74: Paradise starts the colony ship for one of the Libra systems in the south.

T75: I re-base our bomber to Haurus Taurus.

T76: Eden finishes its PDS. Suffering from a distinct lack of inspiration, it begins another. We see a big nebula to our north. And spot some borders of that turquoise civ.



T77: Pink Dot (aka Xanadoo) founded!



T78: Boy are those Templars, erm, I mean "Orange Guys" going to be mad! I think they will try to contact us about a border agreement soon. We meet Hector (of Troy?):



T79: Paradise finishes a colony ship and starts another.

T80: Eden finishes a PDS. It starts another one, gets mocked for lack of imagination. I rebase our bomber to Xanadoo.

I hope I didn't mess up the warp lanes. I was making one towards Xanadoo (via the starbase asteroid belt and probably an ofshoot to Rho Libra too) and one towards Chi Libra via the other resource-rich asteroid belt.

Here are the star systems we found this turn:



That Zeus sigma sure looks nice doesn't it! But alas it's too far away for us, being in the far east. Lamba cancer is also too far away, in the far west. The two on the left are relatively close, south of the Libra systems:



Here's the tech screen. I didn't trade any techs.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Teal should be Lu Tianqu. Orange is not the normal Halis color. Nor is Aestoria their normal first city, it's their second. Halis is the duplicate. So they can be our first victim. . Let's see, it's T80, and they don't have a second city (or it's brand new)? Yep, definitely Templars.

Rho Libra first, since it's easier to get to than Chi Libra? I doubt I'll plant 2 colony ships this turn, anyway, unless you've got one en route.
I like the Rho Sagittarius system. Nice balance, good size. Zeus Sigma's a beauty, shame it's so far away (and it would grow like a weed. 2 size-2 Earthlikes!!! We'd be at our happy cap so fast...). Military-wise, 2-3 bombers and 1 PDS per should be plenty. With active scouting, we'll see an AI stack a mile away.

I'll play tomorrow afternoon/evening.
Tech trades: the map's probably the best thing for us to trade, if we're going to. If I can swing Gravity Training + some cash (50GP?), I'll probably pull the trigger (and we will definitely get +4 Fair and Forthright if we gift our map).

Olodune, you're on deck.

 

[sooooo]

There is already a colony ship on the way to Rho libra and there is one a few turns from production, so you will be able to settle both systems in your turn probably. Or at least get close.

I forgot to mention, but I started the building that lets you build bombers in Eden. I assumed that with Paradise on worker/settler duty we'd want a second city that is able to build offensive ships. Also I started another missionary in Horus Taurus - not sure if that was a good idea either.

 

[T-hawk]

timmy827 is on deck, then Olodune.

Cyneheard / Mojo <--- Up Now
timmy827 <--- On Deck
Olodune <--- In the Hole

I'm going to be away from my Civ computer Saturday morning to Monday evening. Hopefully we'll rotate the turn to me before then; with timmy in Pacific time, we might manage two turnsets today.

Eden probably also wants to be on worker/settler duty once it reaches full pop. Its ceiling is quite low at 6 population. I'd keep it pumping PDSes for now. Gemini Omicron (Xanadoo) is a good candidate for a military builder with a huge pop ceiling and being on the front line - although it may first want nutrient/mining facilities on the second 2-2-1 size 3 planet.

 

[Olodune]

Still looking good.

Nice to see a warplane network under construction too. Anyone have a feel for how valuable foreign trade routes are in this mod? I'm assuming less than in a "continents" setup, but establishing connection with our neighbors can't hurt...

Edit: Warp-lane looks a lot like war-plane

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Edit: Warp-lane looks a lot like war-plane

I made that goof the first time I saw it. Especially since we're also building war-planes.

Foreign trade routes: populations are smaller in FF, and I'm not sure if we get the intercontinental bonus. IIRC, right now, we'd probably get 2 or 3 commerce from a foreign route, and 1 from a domestic. Late-late-game, trade routes might get to 8 commerce or so. And we only get 1 per planet. Maybe when a Construction Ship gets to Xanadoo, we hook up our trade routes with Halis? I wouldn't put extra priority on it, since 1 domestic route = almost as good as turning 1 domestic route into a foreign one.
So, they're nice, but even the Red Syndicate doesn't live on a trade route economy.

Copy on Eden pumping PDS, Gemini Omicron (Xanadoo) getting a nutrient and mining on the 2/2/1 size-3.