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Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    Why does upgrading a European Irregular (10:strength:) to a Fusilier (12:strength:) cost 6-7 times as much as upgrading an Arquebusier (8:strength:) to a Fusilier? In my current game, upgrading a European Irregular to a Fusilier is costing me 1998 gold.:eek2: And I have a lot of Irregulars. Upgrading an Arquebusier only costs me 300.

    ...they aren't getting upgraded, obviously. To the trash can with them.

    Edit:

    Even more absurd:

    Upgrading Pikeman to Fusilier: 1500:gold:.
    Upgrading Pikeman to Irregular: 10:gold:.
    Upgrading Irregular to Fusilier: 2000:gold:.

    I mean, come on. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  2. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

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    The upgrade cost depends not on the unit's power but on the difference in costs to build. Irregulars and levies are significantly cheaper units and most importantly in this case they also have smaller cumulative costs (something like +5% for each pre-existing unit instead of +20%).

    EDIT: In your example I'm guessing irregulars were already cheaper to build than pikemen, so there's only a token cost of 10 gold (technically, it should give you gold back, but obviously that isn't going to be viable) and that's why upgrading to fusilier via irregular rather than straight up is more costly.
     
  3. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    Yeah, realized that was the problem shortly after posting. Still, although it's mechanically sound, it's conceptually flawed.

    Decided that for my next game, I will be turning off both the unit cost scaling and the tech cost scaling and reduce the effects of the courthouse and other maintenance-cost reducing buildings. The ultimate goals of the unit cost scaling and tech cost scaling were to control things already managed by unit and city maintenance costs, but the latter do a much more elegant job. Due to buildings and civics, though, maintenance costs don't pose the challenges they were designed to implement.
     
  4. The Francis

    The Francis Chieftain

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    New version?? Or never ??
     
  5. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Never? There are updates on SourceForge every couple days. There were 8 in the last 2 weeks.
    The release won't happen in the immediate future though, there are still lots of things to do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
  6. Drakarska

    Drakarska Epic Dadness

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    Wow AtR, guess I should pay better attention to peoples sigs. Just noticed you had a link to RFC Euro... Sheesh. Bi-focals really bite.
     
  7. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    If I disable the increased research costs per city, does that also disable the research boost that was in the same update? I disabled the increased research cost, and am now about to enter the medieval era while still in BC years. Not sure if it's an unintended research boost, or the result of all my wonder hoarding.
     
  8. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Yeah, in general, isolated starts are currently very good, and that probably makes them even better. If you want to play a builder game, you have to pray you start on an isolated island.

    Why would we need watermills in forests if you already can build lumber mills there for basically the same effect? As for production - I guess you're right, but literally everything else built on a river bank gets +1 commerce, which isn't easy to say goodbye to...

    Yep, I feel like Raging Barbarians have outlived their usefulness. An additional positive feature of not having them is not forcing AI to build large armies early on, thus not forcing them to have arms races with each other later on trying to keep up a good strength ratio. So this option will now be off by default.

    For jungles near your first city, you have a very special early wonder to beeline to. As for the city capture you're reporting, that is indeed unintended, but I can't say it's game-breaking. Think of it as having peacefully integrated Arabs into your civilization, with them bringing their military traditions... Your civilization basically now has its own British Gurkhas :)

    They are not there to control things already managed by unit and city maintenance costs, but rather to prevent problems caused exactly by those. Due to unit maintenance costs and AI overbuilding units, the huge late-game armies both reduced the game performance and wrecked AI economies. As for city maintenance, they either made expansion impossible from a certain point if set high enough or did not prevent anything if not. Research scaling allows you to keep expanding if you are willing to sacrifice research, without setting a hard cap on your expansion, while also solving the problem that you had to expand to stay competitive later on.

    No, it is intended, but not implemented. So for now turning it off you end up with a greatly accelerated research.
     
  9. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    I've grown to really like wonder, but I still think it's a bad idea to limit the solution to jungle starts to a single civilization, and without even guaranteeing that the civilization would be in the jungle. I'll typically build it even when surrounded by forests, or even empty plains. The +1:food: from wells has been pretty handy when my cities have few food resources.

    The best idea that's occurred to me, in regards to making jungles more survivable, would be to make the tech tree have several branches, with one branch focusing on the European style progression (which I would say is the current version) and the other focusing on Tropical progression (central American, Indian, etc). That would require a tremendous effort, though, so no expectations on that ever happening.

    Ahh, you are right. I did misidentify the intentions. I've turned those features back on.

    Surprisingly, though, the one game I played with both settings off featured the most civil early game I've seen in years.
     
  10. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    That's actually not a bad idea at all. I will give it some thought and see if it can be done elegantly. That path could also be a source of some extra health when you really need it for other reasons (since now starting health is so much lower)...

    Well, if my initial feeling from playtesting is right, the games in general should become more civil once Raging Barbarians goes off by default (which should be in the next revision, when I finish working on it).
     
  11. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    Absolutely. I figured it would work by having many techs that are common to both, so there's still a lot of crossover, but with your current techs determining which techs become unlocked. So, for example, Trade can be unlocked by techs from either branch, but the techs Trade leads to would require a specific branch.

    I realize now that this could also have a great impact on the new world rush. No longer can you just send settlers to the new world and have them thrive; you will have to research a lot of techs in order for those cities to become useful and defensible from the natives. Would be a nice way to slow down the research of expanding civs and allowing the non-expanders to catch up or develop an advantage.
     
  12. sazhdapec

    sazhdapec Warlord

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    I've been playing offline for quite some time and I'd like to say something.
    1) Is it possible to limit the amount of city defence that can be bombarded if there is enough culture? Defenders will still fight viciously to protect their homes even if the walls were breached.
    2) There is no cheap building (especially in lategame) that allows to turn citizens into craftsmen. The city has to grow strong to afford one. Is this intended?
    3) AI gives strange upgrades depending on the power bonus. For example, it can promote a unit to arctic combat because it gives a 25% bonus even if the nearest tundra is far far away. I wonder if lowering the bonus (for example, to 20%) will fix this.
    4) AI is way too peaceful especially with neighbours. It is even common that two adjacent civs never fight the whole game.
    5) Watermills are weak. The only time I built them was in conquered Babylon on the World Map Huge because there was nothing else to build (plain desert tiles).
    6) Some units have a clickable area larger than a tile they are on, for example, Mountain Infantry (Asia), most of modern Japanese naval units.
    7) I suggest moving pastoral nomadism civic to horseback riding tech for both balance and realism reasons. Don't know if that constitutes a buff.
    8) With the nerf of militia early game cities become even stronger. With miniature ancient logistics values one can't even brute force immense archery defences with shortswordsmen. No wonder AI doesn't like to fight wars in the ancient era. I want those pesky archers (to be more precise their city defence bonus) nerfed!:mad:
    9) Another idea to counter "overimproved" territories: building a ground improvement consumes a worker (work boat mechanics). Don't know if build time is still necessary.
    10) Move chop forest/jungle farther into a tech tree. This is mostly for AI because I often noticed that it likes chopping more than improving powerful tiles. I once saw a worker building a cottage on a tundra forest instead of a flood plain a tile away. As for jungles it still feels weird that you can get rid of all of them by the medieval.
    11) Change internet world wonder - make it next building in media line after TV station.
    12) Pen huo qi defence vs ranged mounted units is for balance purposes, isn't it? I'm not sure a horse should be scared of it at a distance.
    13) Charge mounted units are quite pricey especially with the combination of ranged mounted units but are easily countered. I usually don't build more than three charge mounted units: those are for the aid.
    14) Imho traditional custom civic is quite weak but AI LOVES it. All those units with 1/2 exp and cities with 0+20% culture :goodjob:
    15) AI attacks cities with bare recon and charge mounted units a lot. This is quite serious because AI throws away tons of hammers for nothing. Is there anything that can be done?
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  13. cfeyyaz

    cfeyyaz Chieftain

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    Hi, I implemented some further changes in my own version of the Realism Invictus. I will write them down and I hope those ideas will help developers improving the game further:

    1) Most strategic resources now also appear on forests, jungles, savannas and swamps

    2) I felt that Technology transfer by capturing a city was too meek so I modified the Tech conquest script. The :science: you get from conquering another city is influenced by a) the size of the city, b) the cost of the technology.
    The influence of a) should be more significant than the b). So I decided:

    :)science: from Conquest) = C * (Size of the city)^a * (Cost of the Technology)^b + (Some Random Number)

    After playing with the numbers constants. I found the results satisfactory with C = 1, a=1.5 and b=0.5; (Some random number) is something between 0 and 150*(Size of the city).

    I implemented the following:
    fTechBase = float(pOldCity.getPopulation()) ** 1.5
    fTechBase = fTechBase * float(iTechCost) ** 0.5
    fTechRand = float(gc.getGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "TechConquest")) * 1.5 * float(pOldCity.getPopulation())
    iTechPoints = int(fTechBase) + int(fTechRand)

    Some examples:
    If you capture a size-5 city in classical times, you will get around 75% of City Planning.
    If you capture a size-10 city in medieval ages, you will get around 67% of Pharmacy and Botany.
    If you capture a size-3 city in same conditions, you will only get 10% of the same tech.
    If you want to get machine tools on one strike, you will need to conquer a 22-sized city in industrial ages.

    In other worlds, you will get a significant portion of a tech, if you conquer a decent city in each era.

    3) I was never hurrying anything so I changed the :gold: to :hammers: hurrying rate from 5-to-1 to 3-to-1. (Maybe this was overkill and 4 to 1 would have been better)

    4) I added some prerequisites to some techs: Polytheism -> Literature, Theocracy->Divine Right, Dualism->Theology, Ritual->FeudalContract, Explosives->Patent Rights

    5) Science Works (Enabled->Obsolete): Alphabet->Algebra, Paper->Astronomy, Critical->Patent, Physics->Electricity, MChemistry->Nil, NuclPhysics->Nil
    Since the go obsolete, I boosted their bonuses.

    6) I boosted the revenue from the trade mission for Great Merchant. I think such a change was necessary. Now on the XML, the Base Trade is 600 instead of 500, Multiplier is 400 instead of 200. Now, you get a minimum of 1500 :gold: with intervals of 600 :gold:. I managed to earn 5100 :gold: on late middle ages for instance (Distant large city on another continent).

    7) I decreased the cost of first techs on the tech tree. I am considering increasing the tech costs of early renaissance techs.

    8) Since I consider theater as an advanced building (which is also expensive), I gave it only +2:culture: but +25%:culture: (pavilion is now cheaper). Since large cities are more affected by percentages rather than raw bonuses, you will more likely to build a theater in more advanced cities less and likely in other ones.

    9) Culture values of earlier wonders are slightly reduced. After 1000 years their :culture: is doubled anyways.

    10) Watermills get +1:hammers: from mechanical engineering instead of Levee. Levee gives further +2:food: and is also a fresh water source. So the city with levee spreads irrigation even it is on a hill. Hydro Plant requires Levee.

    11) Tax office and toll houses are built faster by legislator leaders.

    12) Clock Tower is an expensive building that shows how advanced your city is. It boosts your :hammers: and :commerce: by 5%.

    13) I nerfed the trapper lodge and lovischche by -1:commerce:. I nerfed a lovischche with fur by further -1:food:. I nerfed fortified monastery by -1:food:.

    14) Cost of Shortswordsman goes up with 6%; Levy with 5%; Irregular, Conscript, Paramilitary with 4%.

    15) Cost of Unique Units go up with 15%. Otherwise they are too easy to replace which I don't like.

    16) Barbarians: I slightly reduced the spawning of barbarian units but slightly increased the spawning of the barbarian ships and cities.

    17) I felt like boosting the Golden Age. It now gives +2:commerce: and +2:hammers:, +200% :gp:. Whether it is early game or late game, the golden age now is an attractive option. I also wanted to do humanist leaders and the owner of Mausoleum of Mausollos a favor.

    18) Normally, wonders stop generating :culture: if they are captured. This was not the case for Isthar Gate. So I changed it.

    19) Grand Arsenal gives +100% ship production

    20) Manor is destabilizing and decentralizing. Therefore it increases the maintenance cost by +20%. A nice counterbalance for the enormous :commerce: bonus from farms. And peasant servitude is now not very good if your empire has grown very large.

    21) Courthouse gives +25%:espionage:. Now you may consider building it in your capital city to get a small bonus of +1:espionage:. But to counterbalance this new effect, jail only gives +25%:espionage: instead of 50.

    22) I decided to solve the problem that AI ignoring Aesthetics by giving the the first discoverer a great artist (like music). It worked well.

    23) Caravan house gives +1:commerce: to settlement, bedouin camp, ksar.

    24) Academy provides one scientist slot. I felt this change was necessary, otherwise the scientist generation was too slow for me.

    25) Mausoleum of Mousollos gives +2:commerce: for quarries in every city.

    26) The Mayor's house giving an unemployed citizen was a lovely feature, so I brought it back :)

    27) I also implemented other changes for some wonders, buildings etc. Now I am working on optimizing the religion civics and the merchant prince civic. I also have some further ideas, but I'd like to discuss them another time :)
     
  14. cfeyyaz

    cfeyyaz Chieftain

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    @sazhdapec:

    The point 1) is a feature that I also would definitely like to see. Probably it requires some programming though.

    About idea 9), I implemented the following: Workers die (let's say retire :) ) with a probability of 25% upon completing the improvement. Their initial production cost requires less :hammers:, but their cost goes up 25% for every worker. It has some benefits:
    a) You have a swift start, you can build your first worker and then first improvement quickly.
    b) If your empire grows large, this feature would have balancing effect. You can easily have 3 workers for 3 cities and it will be sufficient, but it would extremely costly to have 20 cities and if you want to have 20 workers on the field.
    b) In the original game your number of workers increase consistently. Their work rate increases also with certain techs. But at the same time the number of tiles that are needed to be improved decreases. So it is kinda not good for game balance. It would be much better if you were forced to build new workers now and then in the later stages of the game.

    But at the same time it has some disadvantages:
    d) Especially for casual players, this dying feature can be extremely annoying. You send a worker all across the map to build a plantation for a very important resource. You build the plantation, your worker dies and you now need another worker to build a road there.:mad:
    e) It is also not good for players who likes to play fair and balanced games. Especially at the start it is very very significant whether your first worker dies after building one improvement or ten. I actually like the unpredictability and luck involved in the game but some might dislike it a lot.

    As Walter Hawkwood has already mentioned, around the middle ages European continent was already heavily deforested. So maybe the current mechanism is good enough. However, if you would travel through the plains of the Anatolia for instance, you will see nothing but rough, brown terrain until the horizon. Since Anatolia can be considered as a cradle of civilization and it is ruled by the same nation for several hundred years, you would expect the land to be completely used for agriculture or some sort of industry. But apparently this is not the case. Compare it to Germany for instance, where every single square meter is either farmland or urban area or forest.
     
  15. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    The workers/improvement fix is actually quite simple: Instead of having techs and civics provide bonuses to improvements, they should make new improvements available. Watch as improvement construction drops when you have to rebuild that farm 3 times over the course of a millennia. New improvements would also take longer to construct, so all the bonuses to worker construction rate will finally be for a proper cause.

    Further, different there can be different workers to construct different improvements. What would a worker trained in the stone age know about creating a plantation, anyway?

    This already exists to some extend in slavery, with slave farms and slaves, and in mechanized farms. To me, that seems a strong proof-of-concept.
     
  16. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

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    Something I need to say here about how I feel about any changes to worker related mechanics:

    Don't make them require any more micromanagement hassle than they already do. [Y]'s suggestion is terrible in this regard because it's already a pain to change regular farms to mechanized farms once those become available. Similarly changing slave farms to farms once you get out of slavery. You can't trust the worker automation to not screw you over regarding other improvements (it works fine for route building -- but only if you have enough workers, since they don't prioritize very well) so you have to do the whole thing yourself, and it's very easy to miss squares this way unless you work methodically from one end of your empire to the other. How many times have I taken a look at the statistics screen to find I still have one regular farm hiding somewhere and become frustrated at how hard it is to find...

    In my opinion, once your empire is large enough, it should be a trivial matter to keep your improvements properly maintained. Anything else, I find, takes a lot of clicks for very little game-play satisfaction, and I don't find the worker situation as it is now to be either too unrealistic or out of balance.
     
  17. pioswa

    pioswa Chieftain

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    1. As i understand you guys correctly, now starting on isolated island without contact to rest of the world is more beneficial (science wise) than starting on a large continent with lot of players? In my opinion it is not very realistic. Tech transfer should be major factor that boost science. Natives of Australia, New world, central and south Africa ware technologically inferior to Europeans in early age of exploration because they ware cut from Eurasia.

    2. I must agree with Shuikkanen when it comes to workers. Increasing micromanagement take away fun from game, in my opinion it is not a good thing (and i'm a player who never automates his workers, i'm always managing workers manually).

    3. Regarding Jungles, in my opinion it would be nice if placement of certain civilizations would be connected to historical terrain of that civilization, and in that case jungle should be useless for civilizations that don't live in jungle environment and these that do, will have unique improvement to make useless tile a fairly good one (without clearing jungle). That improvement should also give access to resources from jungle tile. But i guess it would be hard to make selective placement that is compatible with typical map scripts, so i guess it is wishful thinking.

    4. But what about creating jungle improvement that is available for everyone. That improvement should replace clearing jungle action, so workers by the time of iron working(or other technology) still couldn't clear jungles but could place work camp on jungle tile that should give a little bonus and access to resources on that tile. Working that tile by citizens for many turns, should make jungle cleared. If i'm not mistaken that should lead to situation that jungle would get cut down near huge cities only, and jungle would disappear form "borders" of jungle, not form middle. City placed on middle of a jungle will not afford to spend citizens on jungle tiles, only cities with good food source that would have only few jungle tiles in their radius would have enough food to spare citizen to work jungle tiles in order to get ride of the jungle. Cutting jungle should be in that case moved to late renaissance or even to industrial era (or even removed from game entirely, and in later era , time that citizen must work a tile to clear jungle would be shorter). I don't know how AI would handle it, i guess AI would never work that tiles if they wold not give enough of food/hammers/money, so if there is no other way to teach AI how and when to work jungle tiles to get rid of the jungle, then it is not good idea at all.

    5. Ever considered giving small science bonus for pillaging tiles of more advanced civilizations?

    6. Ever considered disabling capturing workers? I don't get capturing workers when civilization don't run slaver/foced labor civic? Who are these people if not slaves when they are captured? When military unit capture worker then what is happening? "Hey! You! Come work for us, we will give you a better jobs! Mmmm... Ok lets go! But we are not slaves, no" I think more realistic, and more challenging (no more capturing workers from AI at start of game) is that when capturing worker, he is destroyed (soldiers either killed them or just force them to disband). When civilization run slaver civic, then captured worker would became slave.
     
  18. sazhdapec

    sazhdapec Warlord

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    I second this.

    I'd even say it's totally unrealistic. And I hope this will be fixed soon :)

    But my variant doesn't increase the micro but the number of workers built. Which is not that bad since I guess most workers are built in ancient era.

    Furthermore this idea can be applied to forests too.

    I like this.
     
  19. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    Oh, I absolutely agree. But it would be the most practical and realistic "fix" to workers. Limiting worker lifespan, or giving a random percentage of worker death, would be even more frustrating, I think (at least, that was my reaction to Civ 6). But with some programming, my idea could be made viable: All that would need to be done is introduce a proper improvements tree (which upgrade to which) and new worker setting for "upgrade improvements". Not totally ideal, but would reduce the micromanagement considerably.

    That said, I do think the current worker situation is fine as it is. Not ideal either, but any complaints about it at current feel like complaining for the sake of complaining. A good point, but ultimately a matter of aesthetics than actual gameplay.

    Yes and no. An open world should sometimes lead to technological advancement, but this has not been consistent in history. Don't forget that for much of the middle ages, few technological advancements were made, and some ideas from more ancient times were even lost.

    As it is, the idea that you can be trading with nations half way around the world, so long as you're on the same continent (or reachable by a galley) in 2000 BC is already pretty out there.

    Hmm. This also might be a matter of resource placement. The biggest penalty to an isolated start should be the lack of resource variety. I wonder if there are any mechanisms currently in place preventing isolated starts from being resource deprived.

    That is how it currently works. Aztecs and Maya have good bonuses in jungles (although only the Maya have special jungle improvements). Other civs can create Slash and Burn Farms, but those civilizations are still probably going under when starting in a jungle.

    I still think that this is a poor approach. If someone were to ask "what do you think the ancient Greeks would have done if they were in a jungle?", do you think the answer is "they'd probably pout, create hoplites that would fare miserably in the terrain, and starve"? No, I think the answer would probably be more akin to "they would learn how to live there and make use of the terrain". They could still be very Greek, and have philosophy (though it most likely it would have more to do "survival of the fittest" as opposed to stoicism, sure), and have the Olympics (probably with different events) and retain their identity. But they would have also learned to cultivate bananas and hunt the local fauna, and do what they must to live and thrive.

    It's one thing to say that historical jungle-civilizations should be able to do well in general and thrive in jungles, but another thing entirely to say that non-jungle civs should be able to do well in general, but die in jungles. If we really wanted to say that only those civs should do well in jungles, it would only be fair to penalize those civs' agriculture and animal husbandry skills. Anything less than that is creating an unrealistic, uneven playing field, in which some civilizations are being penalized for being outside of their natural element, but others are not.

    That would be nice. I've recently started watching the Vikings TV show, and it made me realized how lacking are the pillaging tactics in Civ. Sure, you get some gold, but the defender almost always has a chance to react (especially when disembarking from ships), so your units are likely to die, and even then you hardly make back what you spend in maintenance. All gold expenses in RI are so extreme that the 5-15 gold you average in pillaging will not do you much good. I don't think it should necessarily be science, though. Better that it vary with the improvements (pillaging farms gives food to your nearest city, mines provide production, towns provide gold, etc). I think I've made that suggestion before, actually.

    Never thought about it, but yeah, that does make sense... Sometimes. When you annihilate an enemy and capture their last city, in which their 8 workers are hiding, it makes perfect sense for them to become your workers. "Hey, we won the war, we own your lands now. Go fix it up" sounds about right.
     
  20. pioswa

    pioswa Chieftain

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    I must disagree. Yes during middle ages technological progress was much slower, and in many parts of Europe roman knowledge was forgotten, but that doesn't change that technology spread through trade and conquest. Paper for example came from far east, from China. Windmill technology came from Middle East. I cant think of even one nation, that was cut from Eurasia, and was technologically superior. If one nation discovered something then that technology was spreading. I do agree that technology spreading should change. Maybe it should be connected to international trade routs, if there is a trade rout then there is technology trading. In that case there will be no tech trading if you just found one civilization but cant trade with it. technology should also spreed through shared border. If there is "Close border spark tension" then there should be a little bonus for technology spreading with that nations. Same goes with religion, missionaries and priests can spreed technology. In middle ages it was monks who preserved and popularized ancient knowledge. So if nations share a religion, then they should have i little tech trading bonus. Also, trade mission of a great merchant should give some ( 50?) turn bonus to tech transfer with civilizations he have traded. Open borders should give tech bonus for neighbors only. But in any case isolated nation shouldn't be technological leader.

    yeah that is why point 3. was good idea only if we would be sure that Greeks will never start in jungle. If we could be sure that every nation will start in their natural habitat then that idea would be good, in other case it is a terrible idea.

    That is why i get more focus on my 4. idea. That jungles are cut down by working citizens, not workers.

    Or they could say. "No, we will not work for occupants! Lets go home (disband)." which is more probable in my opinion.

    Well, science should spread through conquest even if you don't conquer any major city. If your troops are pillaging then they bring back tools, scrolls, books, weapons etc. from conquered land. Event in Vikings tv show (a little spoiler alert) they bring back crossbow from one raid, and then that weapon is became more popular among them. I think that even defeating troops should give a little tech bonus to technology that lead to defeated unit. Waging war just for pillaging would be a good strategy, even if you cant capture cities (with is common thing in early medieval era). Giving food, production etc is also good idea. May be even give resources? You pillaged iron mine, then for 5 turn you get iron resource.
     

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