Realism Invictus

[Hian the Frog]

The Turkic peoples are a large, very large group of people. You can find there the Azerbaijanis, Kazakhs, Turkmen...and of course the Turks. They are round 160 millions with around on third of Turks.
As you can see, we can't neglect the other two thirds. That's why we chose Central Asia as a nice starting place to represent all the Turkic people.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Luxuries with Caravan houses, Jewellers etc., Monarchy/Oligarchy, early religions. But yes, before Classical era you are supposed to have very little in the way of happiness management.



Well, that one is subjective. With not many things to build overall in ancient era, would you rather run out of things to build quicker?

Why would you run out of things to build? You need units to defend and secure your borders as well as take on the barbarians and take barb cities. All this along with trying to protect yourself from an overzealous neighbor. When it takes 20 game turns to build a hunters camp or 14 game turns for Fishing Docks that's a lot of game years. And those are the short build time bldgs.

<snip>

What gave you that idea? Most random map scripts work with RI.

Because it's the only one listed in game setup to build.

Are we supposed to import others?

I can't really say I agree with you here. Jungle is a place of disease and doom, when it comes to humans. To quote wiki on that: "Tropical rainforests are unable to support human life. Food resources within the forest are extremely dispersed due to the high biological diversity and what food does exist is largely restricted to the canopy and requires considerable energy to obtain. Some groups of hunter-gatherers have exploited rainforest on a seasonal basis but dwelt primarily in adjacent savanna and open forest environments where food is much more abundant. Other peoples described as rainforest dwellers are hunter-gatherers who subsist in large part by trading high value forest products such as hides, feathers, and honey with agricultural people living outside the forest."

As for resources, another quote: "Yam, Coffee, chocolate, banana, mango, papaya, macadamia, avocado, and sugarcane all originally came from tropical rainforest and are still mostly grown on plantations in regions that were formerly primary forest."

In both cases, italics are mine.

Sorry Walter but Wiki is Not an Official Encyclopedia or Accurate data base for that matter. And not every Jungle is doom and disease either. So we will have to agree to disagree. It is, after all, your Mod and you can view Jungles however you want to simulate the gameplay you wish to provide.

Yes, you probably should have picked the recommended one, although of course the pace of gameplay is a matter of personal taste, but you are complaining of long build times yourself, so Realistic (or even Semi-Realistic) game speed might be better suited for you.

I will try other speeds too.

JosEPh

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Sorry Walter but Wiki is Not an Official Encyclopedia or Accurate data base for that matter. And not every Jungle is doom and disease either. So we will have to agree to disagree. It is, after all, your Mod and you can view Jungles however you want to simulate the gameplay you wish to provide.

For God's sake, I hate it when people do this. The idea that simply because Wikipedia is user-edited that nothing can be accurate on it is preposterous. If you can DISPROVE his evidence, go ahead. But to just say "that can't be true, that's wiki" is a logical fallacy. I believe "Poisoning the Well" is the exact fallacy here, but you might just be using a simple ad hominem. Now, do you have any evidence to disprove his well-supported assertion?

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

But that left out the Ottoman Empire, a superpower in Renaissance only equal to Spain. The central asian turcoman people are related to the mongol khanates, well, thats my thought. You are russian, sure know more than me about central asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-TurkicLanguages.png

A good geographic representation of modern Turkic peoples. I agree on the point of Ottomans, but if we place them where Byzantines should be, then we leave the Byzantine empire that was important for even longer.

 

[Cruel]

The statement that Walter selected in wikipedia, is based on Bailey, R.C., Head, G., Jenike, M., Owen,B., Rechtman, R., Zechenter, E., 1989 "Hunting and gathering in tropical rainforest: is it possible." American Anthropologist, 91:1 59-82.

This brings two important contradictory information from Wiki. First Tropical rainforests are unable to support human life and second Hunting and gathering in tropical rainforest: is it possible. I do not want this statement to demoralize the wikipedia. Just we need more sources for a high-level discussion.

Well I am Brazilian and I have a jungle in my backyard. One of the things that wiki does not speak are the rivers in jungle are great source of food too. Another point is that survival is different from development. Many groups that inhabit the forest has no trade. It had confirmed the presence of 67 different uncontacted tribes in Brazil, up from 40 in 2005.

I wish it were possible to bring more sources of information for this issue to be discussed in more property. I think it may JosEPh_II or people who are more interested in the subject can bring them.

Anyway for now I'm satisfied with the mod provides. Why not continue this discussion on a specific thread?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=202

 

[Frytak]

No I wanted to say that there is no American civilization in your map So if I want to play Earth map as American civilization in your mod i dont have a chance because native scenario doesnot works with your mod and your maps dont have american civilization. I just want to play earth map with american civ on your mod. Thats the point. So im very sad because as I sad this is the best mod in Civ4 i think.

 

[Jwitti]

You could always use WB to move somebody over to America.... maybe sweden since they share the initial flavor units

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Why would you run out of things to build? You need units to defend and secure your borders as well as take on the barbarians and take barb cities. All this along with trying to protect yourself from an overzealous neighbor. When it takes 20 game turns to build a hunters camp or 14 game turns for Fishing Docks that's a lot of game years. And those are the short build time bldgs.

<snip>

Well, this might sound strange at first, but years don't really matter. Think about it - the current date has absolutely no gameplay effect. One turn is 20 years at the start of the game and one season in late XX century. Yet this fact by itself has no impact on the gameplay.

Also, from gameplay PoV, current building costs are balanced pretty well with unit costs - if a building were cheaper than a unit, we'd have all cities fully improved in no time. We don't want this - a player has to decide to either invest heavily in building up their cities or devoting these precious resources to other tasks, like border security, expansion etc. If you can comfortably do everything in short time, the value of tactical decision-making is greatly diminished.

Because it's the only one listed in game setup to build.

Are we supposed to import others?

I'm not really following you here. Are you claiming that you can't select any map scripts other than archipelago? All the stock map scripts (fractal, continents, etc) are supposed to work, and you can download many custom good ones from CFC as well.

Sorry Walter but Wiki is Not an Official Encyclopedia or Accurate data base for that matter. And not every Jungle is doom and disease either. So we will have to agree to disagree. It is, after all, your Mod and you can view Jungles however you want to simulate the gameplay you wish to provide.

Well, as others pointed out,

1) I was quoting a sourced reference from a book
2) Wikipedia is a source - it is someone's opinion, and not 100% accurate, but by that mark everything ever published is someone's opinion, and nothing is ever 100% accurate.

The basic point that I was making is that jungle can't support civilization. All civilizations in jungle-heavy areas that I can think of were actually existing on territories claimed from jungle and turned into agricultural lands.

No I wanted to say that there is no American civilization in your map So if I want to play Earth map as American civilization in your mod i dont have a chance because native scenario doesnot works with your mod and your maps dont have american civilization. I just want to play earth map with american civ on your mod. Thats the point. So im very sad because as I sad this is the best mod in Civ4 i think.

Yeah, sorry about that. That's right, no USA on either of the current maps. I understand that about a third of our players are American and it might be somewhat inconsiderate of us...

You could always use WB to move somebody over to America.... maybe sweden since they share the initial flavor units

More than that, after that one can manually edit a WB save to turn them into the needed civ. Actually...

 

[Frytak]

I just want to play as American Civilization on Earth map

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

...here you are. Took me about 5 minutes, figured it'd be quicker if I just made one for you. Unzip it and place it to Beyond the Sword/Mods/Realism Invictus/PublicMaps.

 

[Jwitti]

I got the idea from GHalfrunt who made a story on S&T about being maori (he moved Spain over)

 

[Frytak]

Walter Hawkwood thank you! Very very much D i Appreciate it

 

[Frytak]

Im just playing it. Dont want to be ungrateful but there is small problem This Huge maps takes sooo long time between turns about 10 sec and Im just in turn 5 xD I got 4GB ram 4 cores. I think that this is problem for all people who plays this map because in turn 100 i will have to wait like one minute, then two and so one Is not there chance to resize the map or just add there just about 18 civs? Because I dont know if you played world map ( even large ) And its also so big that it takes so much time to get to the next turn xD I would help If i would know how.

 

[Midgard Eagle]

For God's sake, I hate it when people do this. The idea that simply because Wikipedia is user-edited that nothing can be accurate on it is preposterous.

On the contrary, he is absolutely right. Wiki is open for free editing, by amateurs, and as such often has little value when trying to convince someone of something.

The way to use Wikipedia is to either use it as an info gathering tool, or as a starting point in your research, or to look up the sources for the various claims and use them as sources.

If you can DISPROVE his evidence, go ahead. (...) Now, do you have any evidence to disprove his well-supported assertion?

Burden of proof doesn't work that way.

 

[Palaiologos2]

More than that, after that one can manually edit a WB save to turn them into the needed civ. Actually...

I believe that in the revolutions mod the player can actually take command of a breakaway civ. If that is so, then you could play as England in a future RI version, colonize the Americans and then assume control of the yanks.
It would give those USA gamers the feeling of historical simulation.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Im just playing it. Dont want to be ungrateful but there is small problem This Huge maps takes sooo long time between turns about 10 sec and Im just in turn 5 xD I got 4GB ram 4 cores. I think that this is problem for all people who plays this map because in turn 100 i will have to wait like one minute, then two and so one Is not there chance to resize the map or just add there just about 18 civs? Because I dont know if you played world map ( even large ) And its also so big that it takes so much time to get to the next turn xD I would help If i would know how.

Yes, they are that large and slow. Some people consider it a problem, some are content with loading times, some play smaller random maps.

We have no real interest in developing smaller world maps ourselves, so it isn't likely to happen, but if there are any enthusiastic players around, they could do it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm not really following you here. Are you claiming that you can't select any map scripts other than archipelago?

Walter on the set up screen for game options in the version I d/l'd, there is only 1 map listed in the drop down menu for maps, Archipelago. I hope that is clear enough? Or would you like a screen shot?

Do I have a bad D/L?

JosEPh

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Walter on the set up screen for game options in the version I d/l'd, there is only 1 map listed in the drop down menu for maps, Archipelago. I hope that is clear enough? Or would you like a screen shot?

Do I have a bad D/L?

JosEPh

There definitely is something wrong if I understand you right. A screenshot would be nice, and some details on your system and what and where you installed.

 

[JosEPh_II]

My error, I was looking at Landmass type not Maps on the drop down menus. There are many Maps to choose from. That's what you get when you play tired and you're just a month or so away from being 60.

Everything is in the right place. I've been a tester for Rise of Mankind by Zappara, A New Dawn by Afforess and C2C by StrategyOnly for the last 4+ years.

Because of those mentioned Mods I've become very accustomed to having Jungle tiles be more productive. As they all have employed a form of Vincentz Jungle Camp Modmod over the years. Going back to the vanilla Civ IV usage for jungle tiles is like a step backwards for me. But as I stated it is your Mod and you've made it to fit your ideas. It is I who must adapt or not play.

I was trying to give some feedback as Cruel had asked for my impression of the mod. He didn't ask me to only give good impressions, but what stood out for me.

If I've offended you in anyway that was not my intent. Unfortunately my statements have generated unwelcome backlash. So I will retire from your thread to not further anger the over emotional that do post here.

You have fine Mod. Good Luck to you and may it flourish.

JosEPh

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Because of those mentioned Mods I've become very accustomed to having Jungle tiles be more productive. As they all have employed a form of Vincentz Jungle Camp Modmod over the years. Going back to the vanilla Civ IV usage for jungle tiles is like a step backwards for me. But as I stated it is your Mod and you've made it to fit your ideas. It is I who must adapt or not play.

I was trying to give some feedback as Cruel had asked for my impression of the mod. He didn't ask me to only give good impressions, but what stood out for me.

If I've offended you in anyway that was not my intent. Unfortunately my statements have generated unwelcome backlash. So I will retire from your thread to not further anger the over emotional that do post here.

You have fine Mod. Good Luck to you and may it flourish.

JosEPh

Of course feel free to give us negative feedback as well; while the discussion on jungle really took an unwelcome twist, I regard your feedback as constructive: you voiced your opinion, I gave an explanation on why we went with that design decision. BTW, hunter-gatherer minor civilizations in our mod make much more use of the jungle than all the others. If my reaction at any point seemed overly harsh, I apologize, as that was not my intent.

OTOH, as Cruel said above, this thread is poorly suited for protracted discussions, especially given the fact that we have our own subforum here and forum elsewhere. Therefore, if any topic veers from simple "feedback - explanation" template, I would like to kindly ask the participants to create separate threads for their discussion. This thread is already huge as it is now.