Realism Invictus

[Walter Hawkwood]

With RI I'm consistently losing 70%+ odds battles.. I mean, I've lost some before, but this is crazy.. I'm playing as france on the large earth and the whole reason the Spainiards are still succesfully raiding my land is because my Spearmen can't seem to beat chariots even with 72.8% odds...

Are you, perchance, looking at the odds for a battle more than one tile away? Because if you move a unit from a stack to a different tile before attacking, it will lose its aid bonuses, and thus will have much lower odds.

I've observed another issue which results in a real handicap for the AI:

When the map is generated, many ice masses appear blockading the landmasses on the poles, but leaving lots of water engulfed. The AI fund cities on those spaces, and frequently builds lots of water units on them, because AI read that it's not a lake, it's coast and ocean, BUT all these units are actually completely blockaded forever

The result is that the AI waste lot of time and resources creating fleets which never will be usable, which it's an annoying handicap An easy makeshift solution ingame it's, using the World Builder, delete the ice that blocks the AI cities, so it can use the engulfed fleets and the blockaded cities properly But, since I have tried many mods and it's the first time I observed this issue, perhaps should be revised, not really know if it is an AI or map generation problem, you surely will know better

Yes, I noticed that too recently, and that should (and will) indeed be fixed.

Another comment: when you win a city through peace negotiations, the city converts automatically to a 100% of your culture This is no way realistic, the acquired city should remain on his original culture, or at least a majority, adding a clearly interesting casus belli or at least a cause for concern for the occupants .

As a clear example, remember the case of Alsace and Lorraine, one of the causes of a war (1870) and a strong motivation for another (1914). This was because the vast majority of habitants remained of French culture although they were assigned to Germany. If this case happens in RI (or Civ4, not really know if it's an issue from your mod or from Vanilla Civ4, anyway should be tweaked) the Alsacians would magically become "germans" in 1870, and the WWI could have be much different...

Well... Having recently been to Alsace and Lorraine, I must say that Germans had little trouble with them, especially Alsatians, who were half-Germanized anyway. Nevertheless, I understand your point. That's not, of course, the fault of our mod, that's how it works in vanilla Civ 4, but this might probably be looked at.

Perhaps as a result of the spearman's effectiveness in Civ3, the RI team decided to nerf the unit to prevent spearmen from destroying tanks so effectively as they did in Civ3.

 

[sjodster]

You mean there is actually somebody that uses the garisson promotion?

City garrison promotions are essential for defending flatland cities at higher difficulty levels.

 

[Hian the Frog]

City garrison promotions are essential for defending flatland cities at higher difficulty levels.

I totally agree. When playing on Monarch (or higher) level, this promo family can be very helpful.

Now, I also understand that we should have a look at that. Maybe we should try to make the "City Garrison" and "Urban Combat" promos different.

 

[Jwitti]

I was right next to him, checked the odds, 71%, 73%, and I lost several times.. iirc the ods were around 71% 73% 75% 84% and several more.

 

[Palaiologos2]

Actually i had this phenomeno as well. Not with spearmen, but with archers vs Choson horse archers. No i was not attacking a tile away. 70%-80% of winning, yet i was losing 4 out of 5 battles.

At that time i guessed it must have been because of the Choson horse archers' immunity to first strikes- but first strikes are already included in the projected combat odds, yes?

 

[Jwitti]

for me it was Frankish Spearmen, Warbands (Axes), and Swordsmen vs Spanish Spears, huntsmen, and horsemen

 

[Propunk]

"I don't really understand how being aggressive, upgrading to combat2 and feudalism are tied together. Do you mean having enough XP? Well, 2 from aggessive and 2 from barracks don't make 5 needed to upgrade to level 2.[/QUOTE]"

The fact is that it works for all aggressive leaders, except for Montezuma. After building barracks, one can give two promotions for melee units, no matter the civics you have.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

"I don't really understand how being aggressive, upgrading to combat2 and feudalism are tied together. Do you mean having enough XP? Well, 2 from aggessive and 2 from barracks don't make 5 needed to upgrade to level 2.

"

The fact is that it works for all aggressive leaders, except for Montezuma. After building barracks, one can give two promotions for melee units, no matter the civics you have.

Bah, figured that out. Check Monty's drawback!

 

[coinflip]

Hi folks:

A few more comments on the "Crusades" scenario, which I am enjoying immensely:

1. Twice I've noticed that a city is suffering a happiness hit saying they are unprotected, but I have a military unit in the city. Both times the unit was a Billman (England). Is this something about that unit not qualifying as a garrison unit or is it a bug? I can try to dig up an old save game if that will help.

2. Historical Quibble: The scenario gives the tech "Archery Training" to the Mongols at start, allowing them to build the "Trained Archers" doctrine pretty much right away. This advantage really should go to England, who's Longbowmen (reasonably represented by the "Welsh Longbow" and "Yeoman" units) were the primary reason for their domination in the fields during the 100 years war. Admittedly, that's really in the 1250-1400 timeframe, but it's still something that this scenario should allow England to get to first. FWIW, I'll probably remove the tech from the Mongols in WB whenever I start the scenario.

3. What's going on with the Hanseatic League? It doesn't appear in the list of built wonders, but I'm not allowed to build it when I meet the requirements listed in the Sevopedia. Has it been disabled for some reason?

Thanks again!

 

[Michkov]

Does the 15 unit per tile penalty only apply for certain unit types?

 

[Jwitti]

I'm see an issue with the Large Earth map-- there seems to be only one spiritual leader, David. So, Good, he founds Judaism. But also most every other religion too unless you try

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Hi folks:

A few more comments on the "Crusades" scenario, which I am enjoying immensely:

1. Twice I've noticed that a city is suffering a happiness hit saying they are unprotected, but I have a military unit in the city. Both times the unit was a Billman (England). Is this something about that unit not qualifying as a garrison unit or is it a bug? I can try to dig up an old save game if that will help.

Definitely a bug, concerning all levy units. Fixed, thanks for pointing out.

2. Historical Quibble: The scenario gives the tech "Archery Training" to the Mongols at start, allowing them to build the "Trained Archers" doctrine pretty much right away. This advantage really should go to England, who's Longbowmen (reasonably represented by the "Welsh Longbow" and "Yeoman" units) were the primary reason for their domination in the fields during the 100 years war. Admittedly, that's really in the 1250-1400 timeframe, but it's still something that this scenario should allow England to get to first. FWIW, I'll probably remove the tech from the Mongols in WB whenever I start the scenario.

Well, we were just trying to give Mongols more staying power. They are still less threatening than they were IRL.

3. What's going on with the Hanseatic League? It doesn't appear in the list of built wonders, but I'm not allowed to build it when I meet the requirements listed in the Sevopedia. Has it been disabled for some reason?

Thanks again!

At the start it is already placed on the map, in Lubeck. Not optimal from historical PoV, but otherwise it couldn't have gotten there by 1159.

Does the 15 unit per tile penalty only apply for certain unit types?

To military units. IIRC, settlers, workers and people don't trigger it.

I'm see an issue with the Large Earth map-- there seems to be only one spiritual leader, David. So, Good, he founds Judaism. But also most every other religion too unless you try

Hm, will look at that. In my hands-off testing, it wasn't that extreme.

 

[Ambassador]

Just tried a longer game with the Dravidian civ. Its superb! I like especially how you introduced special unit building conditions like tying it to the palace. Have you considered doing this also to armies of military slaves. Those were quite common in the Islamic classical age, just think of the Ghaznawids, the Ghorids, Mamluks, late Abbasid army (which eventually took over the government), Sultanate of Delhi etc. You could even consider the Janissaries a type of military slave troops. What about tying them to Slavery civic or the building slave markets and making them mightier and more costly?

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Just tried a longer game with the Dravidian civ. Its superb! I like especially how you introduced special unit building conditions like tying it to the palace. Have you considered doing this also to armies of military slaves. Those were quite common in the Islamic classical age, just think of the Ghaznawids, the Ghorids, Mamluks, late Abbasid army (which eventually took over the government), Sultanate of Delhi etc. You could even consider the Janissaries a type of military slave troops. What about tying them to Slavery civic or the building slave markets and making them mightier and more costly?

Interesting idea. Might be worth a try...

 

[Palaiologos2]

And how about tying Crusader and Ghazi units to "Militancy" civic? Although that might make Christianity or Islam less antagonistical religions. It might work though if you improved the Holy war doctrine the Crusader unit has.

 

[Jwitti]

Has there been consideration of integrating this mod? Or usable mountains.. although I have a nasty feeling I already asked about usable mountains..

 

[Hian the Frog]

Just tried a longer game with the Dravidian civ. Its superb! I like especially how you introduced special unit building conditions like tying it to the palace. Have you considered doing this also to armies of military slaves. Those were quite common in the Islamic classical age, just think of the Ghaznawids, the Ghorids, Mamluks, late Abbasid army (which eventually took over the government), Sultanate of Delhi etc. You could even consider the Janissaries a type of military slave troops. What about tying them to Slavery civic or the building slave markets and making them mightier and more costly?

Very interesting idea. We should think about this. Military slaves were a muslim particularity we should not ignore.

This can be a special Islam feature. We will see.

 

[Floating Pants]

Heya, RI Team! About halfway through this earth map game as Greece on monarch. I did post a bit earlier on that a couple months ago, and now it's being resumed. I'll be returning to school next week, which means less time to play civ, so I thought I might get a few things out while they're on my mind.


First off, as far as realism goes, the biggest point that seems to stand out is the overexpansion of the Zulu and Carthage.

Africa seems to be very easy to expand into, with the Sahara acting very little as a physical boundary. Carthage has 14 cities at the moment, with only 4 touching the Mediterranean coast. This kind of ruins them for me, they seem as a Sub-Saharan imperial power, which is not at all what they were historically. As a matter of fact, they are so far south that they are waging a war with the Zulu to gain new cities. I see no reason that Carthage wouldn't expand this far south, as well.

Then that brings me to the other point, overexpansion of the Zulu. In my eyes, the Zulu historically are simply a small tribal kingdom that grew famous through their impressive warfare. As a matter of fact, I see them more as a "minor civ" should be portrayed in the game, not a sprawling empire millennia before they even formed a structural monarchy. But, I've discussed that topic of their inclusion with other civ players many times before, and I assume that it's popularity that prevails...
But I just don't like to see them so powerful so early, 18 cities that dominate more than the whole southern quarter of Africa.

The point is is that there needs to be some kind way to prevent this early expansion of the sub-Saharan Africa, a region relatively void of native imperial dominance until at least the 12th Century (if you call Nubia a Saharan state). I suggest adding the minor powers (as minor civs like Judea, etc) of the Nok, Kongo, or Maasai. I understand that there are the Bantu, Swahili, and West African minor nations within the game, but they were destroyed very early on the game I'm playing. A few more barbarian nations wouldn't hurt either.


Alright, enough about Africa. So far, I'm running a specialist economy to the highest extent I can (which only means 2 scientists per city, haha). Currently I'm at 25% research, and trying to bring that up as well. The biggest tech advantage over me is Augustus by 3 techs (no open borders), but I've 4 techs over him. That ranks me #1 in research, a pretty good accomplishment for monarch AND 13 cities AND #2 in military prowess.

I'm also loving the more unique religions. As the founder of Judaism, I suppose bearing the 2nd largest religion (at 9%) is rather rare, being that the most difficult to spread in the game. I find the diaspora merchants to be far superior to spies for exploring enemy territory due to their inability to be destroyed, hence giving no diplomatic repercussions and a nice boost of money at the end of their intended lifespan. The little economic and happiness boosts are nice, as well.


I might add a bit later, but all in all, it's going pretty well.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

True that about Sahara. We need to either make it a more formidable obstacle, or buff African minors. I don't think we'll add any more civs, though, because there are already a lot.

 

[krasny]

There seems to be a problem with the time scaling in this mod.

Playing on speed 1.5 I nearly won a Space Race victory by 1400 AD.