Realism Invictus

While I would like to believe they mostly are, as we try to maintain a philosophy where in every era a player has several more or less balanced civics to choose from, I would like to make a counterargument from gameplay point of view. One would argue that with passage of time (that is, significant periods of time, as in millenia and centuries), on average, the policy of developed countries grows more leftist. And from gameplay point of view, it makes sense that later civics should be better than earlier ones - otherwise, players feel no sense of accomplishment when they reach them. Combine these two trends, and you get a trend - even if you have discarded all political bias - that later leftist civics will be somewhat better than earlier rightist.

It depends on your definition of what leftist is. If we just claim that everything good and progressive comes from the left than you are of course right. But if we, for example, would look, how dominant economic policies have been changing, we will see that they were almost libertarian for the most of 19th century, then there was a swing to the left between world wars, then again to the right, then again to the left, to the right after 1980 and to the left again nowadays. So, I don't see any clear trend here.
Actually, very long ago I argued that you don't have anything to represent Thatcher's and Reagan's "neoliberal" economic policy. "Free market" is a rather weird civic both historically and mechanically. Historically I would ask, what economic civic did US have in 19th century when they had very restrictive trade tariffs but a very liberal domestic economy. Mechanically we have a civic which is either OP or very weak, depending on whether you have someone to trade with or not. In both cases choice is very clear in 90% of cases and doesn't seem to be an interesting decision.
(I don't have much practical experience with the current incarnation of free market, so I may be wrong here.)
 
Enjoying the mod. One question: when I have less than 15 military units in one of my cities, but then move several transport ships full of units into that city, all the land units get the "crowded" penalty. This happens even if I don't unload any of the units from the transports. Is this intended? Currently using SVN revision 4370.
 
It depends on your definition of what leftist is. If we just claim that everything good and progressive comes from the left than you are of course right. But if we, for example, would look, how dominant economic policies have been changing, we will see that they were almost libertarian for the most of 19th century, then there was a swing to the left between world wars, then again to the right, then again to the left, to the right after 1980 and to the left again nowadays. So, I don't see any clear trend here.

I believe you are thinking within very small chunks of time here. Of course, XX century was very turbulent and importnat, but taken within larger context of human history, measured in centuries, I think the trend I've described still stands. But that isn't even relevant to our discussion, because...

Actually, very long ago I argued that you don't have anything to represent Thatcher's and Reagan's "neoliberal" economic policy. "Free market" is a rather weird civic both historically and mechanically. Historically I would ask, what economic civic did US have in 19th century when they had very restrictive trade tariffs but a very liberal domestic economy. Mechanically we have a civic which is either OP or very weak, depending on whether you have someone to trade with or not. In both cases choice is very clear in 90% of cases and doesn't seem to be an interesting decision.
(I don't have much practical experience with the current incarnation of free market, so I may be wrong here.)

...I think you are misunderstanding the basic philosophy of the civic system. The civics represent extremely basic ideas that underlie the processes in that general area. Basically, when economics is concerned, I'd argue that all civics in all categories were basically "discovered" by the beginning of XX century.

For instance, in economy category, there are only so many basic ideas one can follow: either you let the market forces figure out all the main issues and government intervention is kept to a minimum (which is basically what "free market" civic is about, be it the extreme forms of Smithian economy or what most Western states use today, as exempified by the existence of WTO), or you let the basic premises of market economy exist but the state tries to significantly affect it through various restrictive policies (and you get the "protectionism" civic, once again whether it manifest itself through the Navigation acts of XVII century England or protectionist policies of modern China), or you believe that the economy has to be steered by the state through direct control of some or all the main contributors to the economy (which gives us "state property" civic, whether through ever popular state capitalism or - in more extreme forms - through Soviet-style planned economy).

If we wanted to represent finer differences between various economic models, we'd need to have 20-30 civics instead of 8 we currently have - but we don't really want to, because civics aren't supposed to work that way. They flesh out the aspects of your society only in the roughest way, and within each civic, a very broad spectrum of social models can fit. While they both fall under the same civic, for example, the realities of slavery in, say, ancient Sparta and XIX century USA are very different. Yet the basic premise of treating people as property stays the same (within the constraints of differences in definitions of "people" and "property" between the ages as well, of course :)).

Enjoying the mod. One question: when I have less than 15 military units in one of my cities, but then move several transport ships full of units into that city, all the land units get the "crowded" penalty. This happens even if I don't unload any of the units from the transports. Is this intended? Currently using SVN revision 4370.

Of course intended. Otherwise you could exploit the system by loading parts of your army onto transports to avoid overcrowding.
 
I believe you are thinking within very small chunks of time here. Of course, XX century was very turbulent and importnat, but taken within larger context of human history, measured in centuries, I think the trend I've described still stands.

If we would look at earlier centuries, things would become very mirky. Both the left and the right claim that what their opponents are defending is the legacy of archaic social models. Your hypothetical rightist opponent would say that statist practices were common for millenia before 19th century. From his point of view we had a massive swing to the right during last 200 years with a few minor setbacks. What I would say is that modern political concepts can not be applied to societies without developed economy with a deep division of labour.

...I think you are misunderstanding the basic philosophy of the civic system. The civics represent extremely basic ideas that underlie the processes in that general area. Basically, when economics is concerned, I'd argue that all civics in all categories were basically "discovered" by the beginning of XX century.

But that's exactly my point. Your free market civic doesn't represent any basic idea but only a very specific aspect of liberal economic policy which even wasn't applied by some historical free market countries. I would suggest you to give free market a bonus to commerce and a malus to health/happiness but I don't really expect you to make such a massive change at this point.
 
But that's exactly my point. Your free market civic doesn't represent any basic idea but only a very specific aspect of liberal economic policy which even wasn't applied by some historical free market countries. I would suggest you to give free market a bonus to commerce and a malus to health/happiness but I don't really expect you to make such a massive change at this point.

But the civic currently basically does what you indicated: more commerce and less happiness. The fact that the commerce comes from trade routes doesn't imply that it is strictly trade-related; basically, there are two ways of a city in Civ 4 to get commerce - through trade routes and from terrain improvements. But I'd argue that resource-gathering enterprises (as represented by terrain improvements) actually fare much better with state support under protectionist conditions or even under state capitalism - which leaves us only with commerce from trade routes to get the bonus - that is, exactly as it is now.
 
Hi,

I have played RI for a few months now, mainly 3.1, but recently going to the SVN. Great work on the mod. Content and look hits the right balance between depth and accessibility.

I have recently started a game as Armenians and noticed that their UI, highland pastures, coupled with pastorial nomadism civic is really high powered. I can have a 4 food, 3 hammer, 1 commerce tile when on plains next to a river. Is this intentional?

I would like to assist with the mod if possible. I sometimes spot typos in various places. Would it be helpful to post them somewhere? If so, where?
 
Hi,

I have played RI for a few months now, mainly 3.1, but recently going to the SVN. Great work on the mod. Content and look hits the right balance between depth and accessibility.

I have recently started a game as Armenians and noticed that their UI, highland pastures, coupled with pastorial nomadism civic is really high powered. I can have a 4 food, 3 hammer, 1 commerce tile when on plains next to a river. Is this intentional?

I would like to assist with the mod if possible. I sometimes spot typos in various places. Would it be helpful to post them somewhere? If so, where?

Yes, intentional (it locks you into a civic that is otherwise quite detrimental - some other civs like Zulus and Mongols are even more dependent on it). Yes, it would be very helpful. And here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=202 :)
 
First of all, I would like to point out how impressed I am that the discussion on "leftist" v "rightist" politics/civics was conducted with such respect and civility. When I began reading at the top of the page, I immediately assumed that things would spiral into an emotionally charged ad hominem exchange; so, kudos to both Gavagay and Walter.

I would like to just second what Walter said in one post (assuming that I am understanding his point correctly). The trajectory in civilizations that are successful is, for the most part, a liberal/leftist one. I am speaking about general direction, though. This liberal direction sometimes leads to overreaching, though, and it is when this occurs that we see a correction in the form of a conservative reform. A perfect example of this is welfare reform undertaken by Newt Gingrich: welfare recipients were being paid to do nothing and had no incentive to get off of the program (this is the leftist overreach), so it became necessary to reform this program and 'tighten the reigns' so to speak (the conservative reform). However, the general movement is still to towards the left. The fact of the matter is that Gingrich, a conservative, was merely reforming a leftist policy: the welfare state.

There is never a switch to reactionary conservatism that ends in success for the civilization embracing it. The Ottoman empire, for example, was progressive for its time, until a reactionary conservative turn sent them backwards culturally, economically and intellectually. Now, looking at the fragment nations of the former empire, we can clearly see that a major change toward a conservative trajectory is like running the wrong way in a race.

Those on the political right cannot doubt that they are farther left than their ancestors, unless they are reactionaries (neo-cons in the US would be an example of this). Anyway, my point is simply that game should reflect a beneficial movement towards the left in order to maintain realism.
 
A quick note here that social conservatism is not inherently linked to rightist policies - German Empire of XIX-XX centuries was extremely socially conservative/reactionary, yet it instituted a prototype of a welfare state, and was, compared to other contemporary powers, extremely leftist in its policy - much more so than its liberal neighbor, France, at any rate.
 
Left/Right is a false paradigm anyway I think. I think the diamond I saw awile ago is much more accurate of the true political compass, with Libertarianism and Authoritarianism like an East/West and Conservatism and Progressivism as a North and South.

I think this makes more sense in game anyway, since you could have a really conservative government with a state religion, while having freedom of speech and limited government in economics.

Theres other weird examples too, and some in history as well.

The amount of variety that could be done in civics is just not practical for a game I think.
 
As much as I hate to lean towards shitstorming in an otherwise civil board, I have to point out that "incentive" isn't really the problem with welfare dependency - There are plenty of people who'd love to get off the program and onto the employment ladder, but the fact is there just aren't enough traditional jobs out there to support them. Cutting benefits certainly makes them more eager to look for alternatives, but if the legitimate job market *has* no alternatives to offer them (as it inevitably won't for a large number of people), the result will be increased crime among the disaffected group building all the way to full-scale social revolt.
 
Moderator Action: People, we have an off-topic forum for these conversations!

I would not presume to disagree with The_J, and I'd also like to steer any further discussion purely related to politics elsewhere, but I'd also like to point out that up to this moment, the discussion was centered on the civic effects in our mod, and all the economical/political discourse was confined to explaining those effects, and therefore quite on-topic for this thread. Still, since this has been accomplished as far as I can tell, let us conclude this discussion.
 
A possible solution to making all civics attractive would be to give older ones new abilities or other things with newer technologies, or to give all civics both positive and negative effects, some of which could change with advancing technology.

Just an idea.

In your warlords mod, on another note there was a really nice Indian city set for the ancient times of India. I don't think I've seen it anywhere else or since thing, I was wondering what happened to it.
 
A possible solution to making all civics attractive would be to give older ones new abilities or other things with newer technologies, or to give all civics both positive and negative effects, some of which could change with advancing technology.

Just an idea.

In your warlords mod, on another note there was a really nice Indian city set for the ancient times of India. I don't think I've seen it anywhere else or since thing, I was wondering what happened to it.

There was never such a thing as a separate Indian city set. Just bits and pieces from Middle Eastern and Southeast Asian mashed toghether.
 
Hi,
Playing RI svn, i note that my last revision is 4387 despite regularly checking last update.
Is that correct or am i experiencing a bug?
Thanks.

NoP
 
Try realism > Tortoise SVN > relocate > https://svn.code.sf.net/p/civ4mods/code

Thank you! I had thought you folks were just taking a couple of weeks off for the summer :mischief:


Eagerly awaiting 3.2, and Walter, every time I play the Armenians I agonize on whether to take Pastoral Nomadism and suffer, or try to struggle without it. Just comes down to whether I start with enough hills around, or if I'd rather exploit a farming resource.
 
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