Realism

[Sorenzo4]

I like realism, and I've considered the strangeness of time in Civ4 and Civ5 for a long time, but man, phillipeactor, you have a WHOLE lot of requirements. I like some of your ideas, like the idea that walking through the desert might be impossible, or harder, until a certain level of technology, and I would love to see expanded demographies and such.

About battles, though, keep in mind that the battles themselves don't take the full turn, only part of the turn. In 3000 BCE, you might get relatively few major battles over, say, 20 years, whereas later turns are faster, and the units can attack more often. I assume it's harder for a bunch of warriors from Ancient Egypt to recuperate from a battle than it would be for a modern armored unit, too. Hence they'd have more frequent battles.

As for ship movement, if you gave modern warships 50 moves per turn, it'd be completely impossible to defend yourself against them. Consider that a gameplay compromise.

 

[Vellis]

You know, I really wouldn't need to be able to control each individual in each city to be satisfied... But at least having some "baseline"

- 52% women
- 48% men
- 775 population
- 15% children (cannot work)
- 5% elderly (cannot work)
- That leaves 298 men that can work the "men" jobs and 322 women to do "women" jobs
- Off those 298 men, use xyz% to build buildings, abc% to extract mining, etc...

That would be PLENTY sufficient.

When the game starts we have the choice of the "speed" of the game - I guess I would like a "new speed" setting called "realism", in which a worker doesn't arbitrarily use 3 turns to build a road, no matter which epoch we happen to be in at the time, but rather a real amount of time, based on reality.

What I don't understand is how this is any different than what we have now? If your city has a population of 6(00), then you have 6 blocks of able bodied citizens to work, with those assigned to mines working on building buildings, those assigned to farms farming food for your city, and those assigned to trading posts selling goods for commerce. It's literally exactly the same as what you've described here, but with less numbers. Use your imagination to decide which citizens/genders are doing which specific tasks =p

 

[philippeactor]

Civilization is a fundamentally unrealistic game

Unrealistic? I would quite respectfully disagree. Almost everything in the game is in fact quite realistic, maps, civilizations, people... The ONLY thing that's unrealistic is the "time" concept, as well as other elements which I have already highlighted.

 

[philippeactor]

About battles, though, keep in mind that the battles themselves don't take the full turn, only part of the turn. In 3000 BCE, you might get relatively few major battles over, say, 20 years, whereas later turns are faster, and the units can attack more often. I assume it's harder for a bunch of warriors from Ancient Egypt to recuperate from a battle than it would be for a modern armored unit, too. Hence they'd have more frequent battles.

I completely agree! But that is not implemented in the game right now. In fact, if you play at "standard" speed right now, each battle "turn" is separated by several dozen years! That is completely unrealistic.

 

[Jharii]

History and realism are an inspiration for the game, not a design focus.

 

[philippeactor]

History and realism are an inspiration for the game, not a design focus.

I realize that - and it bothers me. My 2 cents.

 

[philippeactor]

So --- Can anyone let me know if they think such elements could be modded? In other words, are the modding tools capable of modding such changes / adding such features?

 

[testdummy653]

So --- Can anyone let me know if they think such elements could be modded? In other words, are the modding tools capable of modding such changes / adding such features?

From what i seen, yes they can be modded into the game, but your gonna be hard pressed to find someone to do that for you.

Nothing against you, or anything, but all those changes appear to be more unimportant(not game changing) UI preferences.

 

[Sonereal]

Unrealistic? I would quite respectfully disagree. Almost everything in the game is in fact quite realistic, maps, civilizations, people... The ONLY thing that's unrealistic is the "time" concept, as well as other elements which I have already highlighted.

Everything is realistic? You can research sailing without ever seeing an ocean. Learn to ride horses without knowing what a horse is (i.e., actually having horses), hills that all offer a base 25% defensive modifier despite there being different elevations of hill. There are so many unrealistic things going into this game it makes a historian's head spin but that's ok because Civ5 is a game first, history simulator distant second.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Reminds me of Victoria Paradox games.

 

[Catastrophe90]

When the game starts we have the choice of the "speed" of the game - I guess I would like a "new speed" setting called "realism", in which a worker doesn't arbitrarily use 3 turns to build a road, no matter which epoch we happen to be in at the time, but rather a real amount of time, based on reality.

That sounds a lot like an RTS and not a Turn-Based game like Civ. Might want to check out Rise of Nations.

Also, like someone said, a lot of your wants are pretty much UI changes. Even if you do know that there's exactly 284 able-bodied males in your city and 254 able-bodied females, I'm guessing that you'll still assign them to tasks in groups, which is the same thing as you would do now, except that the current game uses simpler numbers . If you're ready to assign tasks to each of the 538 citizens of your workforce one by one, you are truly and admirable man.

 

[wurstburst]

This game idea sounds hideous and tedious. I want to run an empire, not manage the lives of each and every one of 1,000,000 individual citizens. The various civ games do a decent job of managing an empire at the city level. That's enough "realism" for me.

 

[el_hidalgo]

- I would like to see the real amount of citizens living in each city, not just some “arbitrary” number like 4 or 5, which doesn’t mean anything to me. If a city has 300 inhabitants, then it should say “300”.

- I would like to know what those 300 people are assigned to doing – children, men, women, those fit to work or fight, those too old to work, number of deaths and birth each turn, how many in a couple/married, single, etc…

- The place of women and men in the workforce, each gender being limited to specific tasks at different point during History, and such possible assignment changing according to scientific discoveries or policies, etc.

- Among “those fit to work”, I would like to see who is assigned to doing what – those to cultivate food, these to building a particular building, those to extract resources from the ground, or take care of the animals around the city, those to researching new technologies, being artists, etc.

- The number of people not busy, or depending upon the rest of the population to live (children, elders, etc.) and how much resources must be dedicated to that segment of the population.

- Policies regarding said population, and how that affects said population (could we, like China in real life for example, limit the number of babies per family, etc…)

- I would like to see the medical situation of my population – How much food and water each person is receiving on average each turn and the impact on the health of the population, how an epidemic might be affecting the population, etc.

I like where you're going with this is, but it's simply not realistic enough. I want to know not only the number of citizens in my cities, but also their names, their hopes and dreams, favorite authors, hobbies, etc. Do they have any pets? If so, what kind and how many, and what are their pets' names? Are their pets housebroken? Do my people make their dogs wear sweaters in winter? I should be able to pass a law against that, if I so choose. And then I should be able to send violators to work camps to rush-build the Pyramids.

It's not enough to know how much food and water each person is receiving on average, but how much each specific citizen is receiving. Is it enough? Is it too much? Do my people suffer from obesity? Do they like the food they are getting? I have a cow resource, but do my people like beef? They might be vegetarians. If so, they should riot until I secure a grain resource. But if they riot too long I should have the option to break out my secret police to bust some heads (assuming I have the right civics/social policies/whatever) and send them to the gulag, again to rush-build the Pyramids.

You get the idea. More realism = more better.

 

[TexasTiger]

El Hidalgo 1, OP -50

I really do hope the OP is trolling. If so, he is doing a very good job at it and should be praised. If not, well then I think what you are asking for is unreasonable to see the very least

 

[philippeactor]

Might want to check out Rise of Nations.

This is funny, considering:

The development of the game was led by veteran Brian Reynolds, of Civilization II and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_Nations )

 

[philippeactor]

This game idea sounds hideous and tedious. I want to run an empire, not manage the lives of each and every one of 1,000,000 individual citizens.

Like I said earlier, as an OPTION (pace = realism) it would be cool. You don't want it, you play as usual.

 

[philippeactor]

I like where you're going with this is, but it's simply not realistic enough.

Funny -

 

[Jharii]

I finally got around to building my horseman units and was disappointed that I was not presented with the sensation of riding a horse, galloping across the plains, a lilac-scented breeze brushing across my face. That bond that is formed between rider and horse... non-existent. Midnight (I even named her) just did not respond to my subtle nuances, did not become one with my thoughts; we were not kindred spirits exploring the land in our freedom. I could not blanket, bathe, or shoe my precious Midnight. It was an empty, one-sided relationship.

How could Firaxis not provide me with such realism and immersion? How dare they not nurture my relationship with my Midnight?!

I will say that I do appreciate that I don't have the inevitable pain (cough) and bow-legged gait associated with horse riding, and that I don't have to clean up after her. So all in all, I suppose that it's a fair trade-off.

On a related note, I rode my horse to Brussels... The in game Brussels is in no way like the real life Brussels. Just more reason that the immersion of this game is broken for me.

 

[DavidPBacon]

I would like to see the real amount of citizens living in each city, not just some “arbitrary” number like 4 or 5, which doesn’t mean anything to me. If a city has 300 inhabitants, then it should say “300”.

Civ 2 had the number of people each citizen represented in the city screen. I don't know if they kept the same proportion for the following Civs, I never noticed. But it followed like that: 1=10000; 2= 30000; 3=60000; 4=100000. And it went like that.
So the number of the city size was a representation to facilitate the gameplay, but the POP info was there.

On topic, I'm all for realism. I like your ideas, but they already exist in paradox games.
Of course I still think it could be aplied to CIv as an option for higher difficulties, like Railroad Tycoon 2, where the more complex, the higher was the difficulty. It would be a good exchange from the cheat formula we always had.

 

[Cordycep]

I like where you're going with this is, but it's simply not realistic enough. I want to know not only the number of citizens in my cities, but also their names, their hopes and dreams, favorite authors, hobbies, etc. Do they have any pets? If so, what kind and how many, and what are their pets' names? Are their pets housebroken? Do my people make their dogs wear sweaters in winter? I should be able to pass a law against that, if I so choose. And then I should be able to send violators to work camps to rush-build the Pyramids.

It's not enough to know how much food and water each person is receiving on average, but how much each specific citizen is receiving. Is it enough? Is it too much? Do my people suffer from obesity? Do they like the food they are getting? I have a cow resource, but do my people like beef? They might be vegetarians. If so, they should riot until I secure a grain resource. But if they riot too long I should have the option to break out my secret police to bust some heads (assuming I have the right civics/social policies/whatever) and send them to the gulag, again to rush-build the Pyramids.

You get the idea. More realism = more better.

If this forum had a rep fuction, I'd give you over 9000.