Really Hope There's an Undo Button in Civ7

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I am also not in favor of an undo button. At least it should either an option as suggested above or maybe only for lower difficulties maybe.

 

[dagriggstar]

If it were a mod or optional mode, I would for sure play with it all the time. I can appreciate there are situations it shouldn't be allowed however.

Too many times in the past I've had a ranged unit, thought an enemy was within range, clicked on the enemy only for my unit to MOVE instead of FIRE, since stuff like hills are not noticeable to the naked eye.
Alternatively, you might even want to move simply to the tile next to you, the game re-routes you because it uses less move points, but the re-route takes you into ZOC and then you find yourself pinned in a position you don't want to be.

Thing is, a new player does something by genuine mistake, without an undo button I seriously doubt they are loading up an autosave, more likely they are just leaving the game. Happens enough times, you lose that player from the player base. With an undo button, they probably don't feel so bad/angry/negative about the whole thing.

 

[Linklite]

People wanting an undo button really don't understand human nature, it will be used by folks who then wonder why they aren't enjoying the game as much as they used to.

No, we do understand. We just don't think it's the role of a computer game to nanny people and to enforce philosophies of others onto them. Firstly, let them do what they want - it's not for us to dictate how they should play. There are bigger influences that stack the deck in their favour that not only are allowed but are quite openly discussed and defended culturally on these boards anyway, but it's not for you or I to tell others how they're playing is wrong. Indeed, there was a time when "cheating" at games helped me enjoy them more. I still do on certain games because they allow me to bypass parts that I just don't find fun. And, given that I don't do it in contests to see who is the best with other players, that's fine. Several RTS games have unlimited resources as a baked in option for this reason.

As I've also already discussed, the logic used would have to be quite arbitrarily employed to result in any thing like any of the Civ games. It would logically lead to the removal of:
1. The autosave feature.
2. The quicksave feature.
3. Difficulty levels.
4. Being able to reload the same maps.
5. Having the civ advisor.

These are all features of the game that, indirectly or even directly and expressly, make the game easier, potentially robbing the fun of the abusers (or even just plain users) but we have anyway because they provide quality of life improvements and we just say "well, if they detract from your fun, grow up and learn how to not sabotage your own fun because they make the game better for the rest of us".

If we really must have then make it an option selected at the beginning of the game

Fine, if you mean in the setup for the "match", for a lack of a better word.

and ensure it is clearly flagged in the save file that it is active.

I'm dubious Firaxis would go for the elitist mentality that goes with that. They're aiming at the casual gamer and highlighting it like that promotes a more segregated mentality and viewpoint. More likely, it'll just be one of the various bits of information that gets attached to it.

Agreed. It will make the game easier and then some people will turn around and complain about the game's difficulty level.

They already do, that won't change a thing.

I also think that achievements should be disabled if you start a game with the undo button.

Not really, given how people can replicate the function of the button. All you're doing is punishing those who get hit by the pathing glitch, those with disabilities and those who just get tired and click on the wrong place because they're distracted or whatever. I'm not sure I've ever thought that Civ 6 should be measuring those aspects.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I'm dubious Firaxis would go for the elitist mentality that goes with that

It's not elitist just common sense for a site that runs competitive games to want this.

1. The autosave feature.
2. The quicksave feature.
3. Difficulty levels.
4. Being able to reload the same maps.

These all require a lot more effort than undo which is why I'm happy with them, if there's a genuine issue then reload (although again that should be flagged up).

 

[sethjohnson]

play it on Ironman mode like X-Com - no going back, even for click errors

 

[uhu]

I think, nobody talks about a permanent (always ON) undo button. No need to assume (and argue against) that on and on.

for that reason i think there should not only be an undo button but also a way to have it enabled and a way to have it disabled. i neither know nor care which of the two should be the default.

I'd like to suggest, that for a game, which has enough complexity and depth to warrant several substantial Tutorials, it would be nice to have the default ON undo button in those Tutorials -- default OFF else. (Maybe ON @ the lowest difficulty??)


It is EASY to flag up the status of the undo button in competitive games. And it should be done for verification.



For me it is about freedom. I want the possibility / allowance(!) to exert a feature, which I consider to be very useful in some situations of my games. Thank you.
(Especially if All players have the ability to set the option entirely to Their liking.)

 

[Leucarum]

Does an undo button have to be unlimited in scope? What constitutes the sort of things that an undo button would be good for? It doesn't have to be able to undo everything...

Unit movement is the most obvious one, I think we would all be lying if we said we had never misclicked/mistyped and sent an unit in the wrong direction. People mainly seem concerned with undoing attacks for personal gain, but would an undo for pure movement annoy people? I guess there are cases like undoing moving a settler next to an unseen barbarian scout...

Personally I definitely have reloaded games where I had misclicked with unit movement (particularly early game where it can have a very big cost). Though it's not a common enough occurence that I desperately see the value of an undo button. Being good at the game and being clumsy aren't mutually exclusive (especially in a turn basrd 4X), so I don't think the "get good" argument is a slam dunk. I think an undo button could make sense, it doesn't have to be available in all circumstances.

 

[Brixter]

I disagree. I don't want an Undo button. Part of the fun is rolling the dice and making mistakes. If you want to play perfectly every time, then all of your games will play alike and that would be monotonous. What's wrong with committing to what you did and rolling with the punches?

 

[TreVor_ish]

I feel like there is some kind of a misconception of a forced feature.
Just because something like undo button exist doesn't mean I have to use it. In the end of the day, games are for entertainment and everyone's definition of fun varies, so why not? But like Noble Zarkon already mentioned I probably don't understand human nature.
Offcourse it should be visibly flagged for competitive games.

 

[InsidiousMage]

if there's a genuine issue then reload

If you make thirty to forty decisions per turn, reloading isn't always practical, especially for misclicks. And again, who cares how people play the game? If someone constantly uses the undo button till they get the perfect outcome, how does that effect your game? If you can't refuse the temptation to use the undo button, how is that anyone elses problem? The undo button certainly didn't ruin the experience of learning Old World for me. It made it better because I was willing to take chance because I could undo something if I was misunderstanding something. Now though, I literally only use it for misclicks because I understand the game enough to take chances and then deal with the fallout of the choices I make. The undo button can make the game a lot more inviting to people since it allows them to make mistakes without ruining their game.

It's not elitist just common sense for a site that runs competitive games to want this.

Core game mechanics should not be decided on based on the needs of a niche part of the game's player base.

 

[Victoria]

When you can load the game back a turn I cannot imagine them putting one in.
When I am tired or have little time I will play down a couple of levels but appreciate everyone has different requirements and I am the last one to dictate others requirements. Just try to make sense of if it makes sense, in this case I would doubt they will.for a few reasons. for a start it would mean a lot more RAM and/or disk requirements and certainly more CPU/GPU. Currently loading from a save file is clean, a magical back button means resetting a lot of tables in memory
Undo buttons just aint as simple as people think

 

[TempusFugit]

I personally think that what constitutes "good" with regards to how i play is whatever begets good outcomes. when playing a videogame, all thats really at stake is my happiness/enjoyment. measuring how im performing at the tasks the game expects me to complete is only useful insofar as it can improve how i feel. so the "best" way to play is whatever makes me happiest and what makes me happiest is winning, unless its somehow more fun/satisfying to do things in a way where i lose. therefore, an undo button will necessarily make me play "better", because it gives me more options for how to proceed and allows me to freely choose between those options to get the outcome that makes me happiest.
for others, an undo button would make them play "worse", as it would make them have less fun. for that reason i think there should not only be an undo button but also a way to have it enabled and a way to have it disabled. i neither know nor care which of the two should be the default.
as leif said, having a way to have it be verifiably, permanently off for a game would also be a good feature and therefore should be included
thats my two cents

If an undo button became the standard in turnbased strategy games, and a majority of the player base started using this button for undoing not just misclicks, but also unwanted random number outcomes and bad player decisions, it could have a significant impact on how these games were designed down the road.

I only see this as a bad thing and hope that it is not implemented.

 

[fy00sh]

I would think that an undo button would make you play worse as you could use it as a crutch.

here, i'll rephrase it. when speaking of how well someone plays a game, we're usually discussing their ability to work within intended game mechanics to arrive at whatever the game defines or implies as the desired outcome. I was trying to indicate both that the inclusion an undo button would shift the category of "intended game mechanics", and that that desired outcome need not be "playing mathematically optimally" (aside: im happy for those who find enjoyment in that, thats valid and im glad you have a thing you enjoy but i personally really dont care about the mathematical optimalness of my own gameplay like. at all.), but can rather be the broader category of "having fun"
but here, i'll work under a stricter definition for a bit. "playing well" = "having a good ability to work within the subset of intended game mechanics that dont feel "cheater-y", like using an undo button or savescumming, in order to achieve what the game defines/implies as the end goal, achieved thru playing mathematically optimally, with more optimization equaling more good"
under that stricter definition of playing well, i dont and will never care about playing well and i wish the people out there who decide to care on my behalf whether or not I play well would stop

It will make the game easier and then some people will turn around and complain about the game's difficulty level.

like i believe linklite said, poorly founded complaints about the game being too easy will come no matter what, its a sunk cost, this will really just be giving those arguments a new scapegoat which doesnt bother me. i certainly know i'm not the type to complain that the game is too easy. i wish it were easier in fact, specifically by having an undo button

If an undo button became the standard in turnbased strategy games, and a majority of the player base started using this button for undoing not just misclicks, but also unwanted random number outcomes and bad player decisions, it could have a significant impact on how these games were designed down the road.

i agree, that would be bad. I think the onus is on the game devs to not have that impact how the games are developed. they should understand that those sorts of things that would be affected should be left in for those who want it, as well as the workaround for those who dont want it. they should do that and then also add an undo button

one final note: I'll provide a ranking of a few different ways to handle this, worst to best, in my opinion
random chance removed from current system < random chance removed and undo button added to current system < current system < undo button added to current system, undisablable < undo button added to current system and disablable from settings < undo button added to current system, disabled by default but enablable from settings < undo added, disablable, prominent verifiable mark on save file showing if undo was on or off < undo added, enablable, prominent verifiable mark on save file < undo added, disablable, discreet verifiable mark < undo added, enablable, discreet mark

 

[TempusFugit]

No, we do understand. We just don't think it's the role of a computer game to nanny people and to enforce philosophies of others onto them. Firstly, let them do what they want - it's not for us to dictate how they should play.

This is an incredible naive outlook.

Computer games ”nanny” people and “force” their philosophies on people all the time, it is unavoidable when you are designing a game. For example by selecting which options are available in a game, the designers make a significant decision in how that game is going to be played.

To me it sounds like you are saying that game designers should always give players the highest amount of options that it is practical to implement, and that this would be good for the players, but if everyone had such a design philosophy, games would actually be less diverse than they are today.

In general it is a good thing that games increasingly have given players a greater amount of options, both for menu options, options that exists outside of the game itself and in-game options. But going from that into believing that the highest amount of possible options is always the best choice is naive.

 

[LastSword]

There is a typo in title. It should be civ VIII. The train for civ VII is already gone. They either designed an architecture around that feature or not. Implementing it half-way through is even more ridiculous in terms of amount of work needed.

Plausible scenarios:
1. Civ7 is simple jack and designed with undo in mind. Suggestion is pointless.
2. Civ7 is designed in such way that there is no need for undo. Suggestion is pointless.
3. Let's go with an assumption that civ7 is similar to civ5/6. Let's undo a basic action: movement. You went into tribal village, triggering a free builder. It applied RunOnce modifier reward which does not truely store information which unit has spawned. For those who does not know: modifiers are important part of civ6 architecture and are responsible for a greater part of... gameplay/everything. Important part is that many of them is not truely reversible. What is more, our movement unrevealed Natural Wonder which triggered an Eureka which in fact finished our Astrology progress -> this all would have to be tied to an action made and have a special logic to reverse that. Wait, there is more, we have met a City-State. Now we must know that our action led to meeting and have an unmeet procedure. Of course, we were first to meet this city-state. We also have to reverse free envoy.
I think it is enough for some of you to get a point.

The cost civ7 would pay for undo button in this scenario is enormous. It would result in very simple game many of you may not like. I personally would hate if devs would scrap ideas only because it would be hard to reverse an action related to that. I truely believe that reloading, standing-up, strengthening your back and making a hot beverage is lesser evil.

This is an assumption partially backed up by Vox Populi, but I believe it would be easier to make a good AI instead an undo button (especially implementing it half-way through). As we can expect there will be no good AI.

The civ7 is not even properly announced (!!!!!!!) and I already believe this undo button will join an unholy trio triggering me through the "hype" period:
1. Mentioning machine learning in AI discussions.
2. Bad AI is fun, good AI would be unfun sentiment.
3. Undo is a must, a freebie we deserve.

I also wonder why this thread is not posted/moved to Civ - Ideas and Suggestions.

Core game mechanics should not be decided on based on the needs of a niche part of the game's player base.

Truely wonderful comment.

 

[pokiehl]

There is a typo in title. It should be civ VIII. The train for civ VII is already gone. They either designed an architecture around that feature or not. Implementing it half-way through is even more ridiculous in terms of amount of work needed.

That doesn’t mean someone can’t express hope for a feature. By this logic no one should say anything more about Civ 7.

 

[TempusFugit]

As I've also already discussed, the logic used would have to be quite arbitrarily employed to result in any thing like any of the Civ games. It would logically lead to the removal of:
1. The autosave feature.
2. The quicksave feature.
3. Difficulty levels.
4. Being able to reload the same maps.
5. Having the civ advisor.

You are correct that the ability to reload a game at will does have a similar effect as an undo button or using cheats, in that it allows you to directly bypass intended game mechanics if it is used that way by a player.

But you are forgetting a very important nuance. Re-loading a game and also using cheats, each have a very different connotation and interpretation for most players, both compared to each other, and to using intended game mechanics.

Cheats are always considered cheats. Reloading an outcome you don’t like in a game or a mistake, is not considered a cheat by most players, but it is viewed a bit in the same way, because it undoes everything that has been happening in a game.

An undo button on the other hand, muddies the field by throwing in the ability to undo things at will as just one of many legitimate tools you have at your disposal like in a word processor. The division between following usual game rules and not is much more unclear in a game with this feature, and this will have an impact on how people play these games.

Difficulty levels on the other hand is a totally different thing all together, and have nothing to do with this at all. But having a wide range of difficulties that both give the player and the computer significant advantages is one of the most important things a strategy game developer can do to make their games enjoyable for both the newcomers to their game and the veterans who have played it for years or decades.

 

[fy00sh]

The cost civ7 would pay for undo button in this scenario is enormous. It would result in very simple game many of you may not like. I personally would hate if devs would scrap ideas only because it would be hard to reverse an action related to that. I truely believe that reloading, standing-up, strengthening your back and making a hot beverage is lesser evil.

yknow what youre right i didnt consider that angle. i think a simple game with an undo would be worse than a complex game without an undo, i was just thinking of a dichotomy of a complex game with an undo versus a complex game without an undo.
hmmm. now i think if an undo feature gets announced for civ7 i might get concerned that it was at the expense of game complexity. of course ideally itd be a complex game with an undo but it might be more likely it ends up as a simple game with an undo
so i guess my sentiment has changed from "i hope civ7 has an undo option" to "i hope civ7 is at least around as complex as civ6 was at launch, and given that it is, i hope theres an undo option, and given that there is, i hope it doesn't excessively restrain what they give us in expansions and other DLC"

 

[pokiehl]

yknow what youre right i didnt consider that angle. i think a simple game with an undo would be worse than a complex game without an undo, i was just thinking of a dichotomy of a complex game with an undo versus a complex game without an undo.

I think the ideas you’re responding to are overreactions and false dichotomies. Old World has an undo button and is a lot more complex than Civ 6 is.

I don’t see any proof to the claims that an undo button requires some magical feats of engineering, GPU power, game design, or whatever.

 

[fy00sh]

I think the ideas you’re responding to are overreactions and false dichotomies. Old World has an undo button and is a lot more complex than Civ 6 is.

I don’t see any proof to the claims that an undo button requires some magical feats of engineering, GPU power, game design, or whatever.

oh thats heartening to hear! if thats true then i really do think the inclusion of an (optional, enablable-from-settings, marked-on-save-files) undo button is a slam-dunk no brainer decision.