Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[Aysee]

Erm... actually I just decided to make my avatar/user title and sig conflict for a day. Because I can.

 

[mechaerik]

Schizophrenic:

Main Entry: schizo·phre·nia
Pronunciation: \ˌskit-sə-ˈfrē-nē-ə\
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
Date: 1912
1 : a psychotic disorder characterized by loss of contact with the environment, by noticeable deterioration in the level of functioning in everyday life, and by disintegration of personality expressed as disorder of feeling, thought (as delusions), perception (as hallucinations), and behavior —called also dementia praecox — compare paranoid schizophrenia
2 : contradictory or antagonistic qualities or attitudes <both parties&#8230;have exhibited schizophrenia over the desired outcome &#8212; Elizabeth Drew>
&#8212; schizo·phren·ic \-&#712;fre-nik\ adjective or noun
&#8212; schizo·phren·i·cal·ly \-ni-k(&#601;-)l&#275;\ adverb


EDIT: actually, aysee, you've given me an idea...

 

[arya126]

Sigh. I just read your sig. There is a problem with that whole idealology, well several, but three glaring ones.

1. Communism goes against human nature.

2. It takes away the incentive to work hard, which in capitalism means you are eligible for a promotion or other bonus.

3. In capitalsim everyone has a chance to be rich-you just have to have a bit of luck, and work hard. In communism, everyone is, in theory, on an equal scale, therefore nobody can rise above another and keep getting better.

Oops that was spam wasnt it?

 

[Aysee]

I won't say my RL views on this subject, but I do think both communism and capitalism don't work. Communism in theory is a good idea, but in practice, it invariably fails because of human nature. Capitalism doesn't work because it creates boom-bust phases that inevitable lead to the creation of a gigantic class divides (i.e., the rich get richer and the poor get poorer) and corruption. (Actually they both create that)
So I dislike the pure forms of them both.

 

[Cull]

See my user title?

That says everything about my belief about Communism.

 

[arya126]

Sigh Cull.

But yes, capitalism creates up and down phases, but i think it is preferable to a permanent down phase using communism. Churchill once made a nice quote on democracy, saying that democracy was the worst form of government except for all of those already tried. I think the same can be said for capitalism.

Actually aysee, did you know that most rich people in the top 1% dont stay there? They decline, and very rarely do you see anyone stay extremely rich for too long. And the poor get less poor as well. Except for the ones that dont try, and the ones that live off of unemployment. You see, the ones that work hard usually at least get less poor, even if they dont end up in the middle class eventually. And the rich, well they get less rich alot of the time. Dont go on about the divides, because that is mostly media liberal hype meant to push forward even more progresssive ideas.

 

[Cull]

The system of capitalism produces a small percentage of rich, a relatively decent percentage of middle class, and a large, often abused feudal style peasants. While communism produces only middle class.

 

[Aysee]

Communism as its supposed to be executed does. But the form of Communism that's practiced in the world simply creates a rich, powerful bureaucracy and a poor general public.

 

[Cull]

Indeed.

Communism has never been implemented except maybe 1930s in Northwest China.

 

[arya126]

Well that is the nature of things isnt it? The strong (as in this case are the people that work hard to get to the top) are the leaders of companies, people who have worked hard to get where they are and continue to work hard, and are rewarded greatly. Then there is the weak, who suffer as poor their whole lives because they dont try. Have you ever lived in the hood? I havent. But i know several people that have, and some who still do. You work under the assumption that everyone tries to get rich by 'respectful' methods. But in reality, most of the poor class are 'criminal' in one way or the other.

You see, the whole concept of capitalsim is that those who work hard, succeed. Those who dont try, or have really bad luck, dont. We will always have down spots, but that is also the nature of it. But capitalsim isnt something that can be explained in single posts. Whole books have tried, and sometimes supposedly succeeded, in explaining it. But the concept that is most important to me is that government interference is minimal, and that is the reason i resent all these bailouts that obama has done (and bush in his second term). The government should not interfere much, although they have to to an extent, such as taxes and 'certain' regulations. In communism, or socialism, governments not interfering is kind of impossible.

 

[arya126]

BTW nice sig Cull.

 

[Cull]

See the problem is in today that in today's world, many of the lower class do not have the chance to rise up, set into the generations of the mind of the poor, of the peasant.

And the quote is from Dachs, not me.

 

[Aysee]

It's inherently a problem of human nature. The Communist Manifesto dictates a period of "dictatorship of the proleteriat" before advancing to pure communism and the abolition of the state. However, the problem is to implement a "dictatorship of the proleteriat" requires setting up a dictatorship to begin with. Implement that, and you're giving a small group of people absolute power. When that happens, human nature kicks in and they'll enjoy their power and do anything to maintain said power. The end result is the creation of an all powerful bureaucracy that embodies the very things that Communism was supposed to strike down: oppression and tyranny on an unprecedented scale.

For a good example of that, read Animal Farm by George Orwell.

 

[Cull]

Simple. Once you get there, rebel, repeat, and rinse.

 

[Aysee]

Give an example of that actually occurring and succeeding.

 

[Cull]

Never because often times the ones with the know how were the ones in power.

 

[Aysee]

Well that is the nature of things isnt it? The strong (as in this case are the people that work hard to get to the top) are the leaders of companies, people who have worked hard to get where they are and continue to work hard, and are rewarded greatly. Then there is the weak, who suffer as poor their whole lives because they dont try. Have you ever lived in the hood? I havent. But i know several people that have, and some who still do. You work under the assumption that everyone tries to get rich by 'respectful' methods. But in reality, most of the poor class are 'criminal' in one way or the other.

You see, the whole concept of capitalsim is that those who work hard, succeed. Those who dont try, or have really bad luck, dont. We will always have down spots, but that is also the nature of it. But capitalsim isnt something that can be explained in single posts. Whole books have tried, and sometimes supposedly succeeded, in explaining it. But the concept that is most important to me is that government interference is minimal, and that is the reason i resent all these bailouts that obama has done (and bush in his second term). The government should not interfere much, although they have to to an extent, such as taxes and 'certain' regulations. In communism, or socialism, governments not interfering is kind of impossible.

The poor mostly don't work hard because they see that it is near impossible to rise to the top.
If you look at the richest of the rich today, you'll see that nearly all of them were born into the upper middle class-upper class, grew up in a nice environment, received a decent education at a "good school".
The failure of capitalism today is that it is no longer entirely feasible to start your way at the bottom and work to the top. There all too many obstructions and barriers along the way. Yes the great thing about capitalism is that you can work hard to advance your social status. But now it is only possible to advance by a little. It is nigh on impossible to advance from the "bottom" all the way to the "top".

 

[Aysee]

Never because often times the ones with the know how were the ones in power.

And the ones who aren't have been exiled/jailed/executed by the said ones in power.

 

[Cull]

So there has never been a real communist society to base it upon evar. The 30s China when fighting the Japanese was abolished before it became corrupt, and everything else really doesn't qualify.

 

[arya126]

Actually, its how people grow up. The poor often dont try at school very hard. The ones that do are the ones that end up going to college, and succeeding in advancing to the middle class. Yes its hard to advance to rich, but plenty of people, including the poor, get along fine without being rich. But more often than not, people prioritize other things like sports or social activities before school. That alone isnt really an excuse, (hell i prioritize football over just about everything during the fall) but most people (even in the middle class which i can attest first hand to seeing) dont see the purpose of school or how they will use most of this stuff in RL.