Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[Whosit]

I consider that Arya's third issue, since I count Ravus as an issue.

EDIT: Also, seeing how the administration is not willing to give up their goals of having an offensive army, I agree with Whosit's plan.

Given the Opposition's gracious acceptance of our war aims, I see no reason to call for Emergency Power.

I have already issued my plan for war. It is not the plan that will be followed yet and can/will be revised, but i stand by its ideals. therefore, i disagree with parts of whosits plans.

1. we dont know if they have Praets. Plus we dont have the troops to wage a field war right now. if we send them out to protect the reources, then we leave our cities vulnerbale when we lose those units in the field.

2. Whats this obsession with cats? I almost never use them. they are very weak in combat, and i only use siege weapons when attacking cities where trebs are MUCH better. I dont know why people are obsessing over cats, and maybe if its explained ill understand, but at the moment i dont see the need to have catupults at the ready. It will not be a high priority as it stands.

3. An offensive is crucial in the future, so we need to build up now. Thats how i used the build plans. Also archers are cheaper than axes and if we spam enough of them its possible that we might be able to hold off the romans long enough to get some axes out to clear our lands.

4. I think nottingham should be held, not at all costs, but i am willing to risk alot to hold it. its a salient in our lines, and will probably distract a good part of the roman forces. If we keep them busy in the netherlands, then they have less troops to throw at Ravus.

5. I think the axemen shoudl continue wandering unless the situation gets incredibly dire. They havent sent a stack yet, unless there is one with that catapult.

6. I am considering EP, though i find it unlikely i will use it. It is merely considered right now in case we need the troops.

I feel I must energetically disagree with you, President Arya. Let me address each point.

1. I will grant you that we have not seen a Praetorian. Yet. There is no reason we should not anticipate them fielding these units. I also do not think that you understand my concept of a fighting defense; see point 2.

2. I will do my best to explain this to you. Catapults, and siege weapons in general, are absolutely critical in defensive as well as offensive warfare. Please note that I have played at higher difficulty levels, that I have read numerous strategy guides by the greats of the game, and that I have played a bit of multiplayer, including a game with the venerable Sullla (I lost, but what could I expect, right?). Granted, MP is different than SP, but siege is of utmost importance.

What is the difference between a Catapult and an Axeman? Both have the same base strength, yes? Well, being a Siege unit, Catapults deal Collateral Damage, which means that they can damage units they did not directly attack. This means that a handful of catapults can badly damage a larger stack of enemy units, making those enemies much easier pickings for other combat units. The Barrage Promotion, which increases the amount of Collateral Damage, is the ideal promotion for using Catapults in the field (offensively). City Raider is best for attacking cities.

Why is Collateral Damage important? Aside from what I have already mentioned, let's say that we have two stacks of units of roughly equal strength. All else being equal, the winner will be determined by a coin flip, essentially. However, siege units can swing the odds vastly into one side's favor. By weakening one stack, even by 20%, the healthy stack stands a much, much greater chance of success because of the way CiV combat works.

You mentioned Trebs. Yes, those are better to use against cities than Catapults. However, there are two weaknesses: Trebuchets come much later in the tech tree, and Trebuchets are not as good as Catapults for use in the field. Catapults have a base strength of 5, while Trebuchets have a base of 4 (with +100% when attacking cities). We also need Catapults to take down city defenses, and I do not want to wait for Engineering to be able to launch an offensive.

To sum it up: Catapults will give us the chance to defeat larger groups of enemy units with less risk to our own troops. Given that a war of attrition will probably favor the Romans, we need this edge. We need to pursue Construction immediately.

If this cannot convince you, I'm not sure what can.

3. A few more Archers will be good, but Axemen will serve us better in the long-run. Archers don't make for a good offense, so if we are planning to go on the offensive, better more Axemen than Archers.

4. We don't know which way Rome will go. As I mentioned, I don't want to abandon Nottingham, but I think it would be unwise to defend it if it means leaving other parts of the empire undefended.

5. There is absolutely no reason for an Axeman to go wandering about in the wilderness, especially when we are at war, and especially when that one Axeman represents a large portion of our active military! If we wait for a dire situation before recalling him, it will already be too late.

IC: There are people living in Nottingham. It is not just an area with some buildings and a number. It is a city with people living inside!!!!!!

I understand, and the idea of abandoning them to death, or worse, life under Roman rule does not appeal to me, but in war, especially a war for which we were ill-prepared, means that sacrifices must be made for the greater good. As I said, if we save Nottingham only to lose Ravus-York, or any other more developed city, that is much of a greater blow to the nation than a size 1 undeveloped city. Sometimes, you have to take the larger view, vicious as it may seem.

 

[W|M]

LH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :facepalm: I thought there was going to be something much more exciting and imaginative!!!

EDIT: X-Post, and keep the war defensive.

 

[MathNerd]

Ummmmm . . . about that . . . well . . . I . . . I think . . . actually . . .I didn't.

- Lighthearter

Ah... I see.

 

[arya126]

Finally! Now you realize what i was getting at when i kept talking about the chaos of us talking about how england feels?

And too bad that yay was not OOC. I stand by my statement about the english peoples reaction to your ststaemnt. They are gathered with pitchfrks at your door right now.

I dont think LH wanted rome to declare war. remeber his comment earlier on hwo he couldnt show off his soon-to-be crisis because their was an aii made crisis?

 

[ilduce349]

I am against the EP idea

 

[MathNerd]

For goodness sakes Arya, you know what I meant, and I'm pretty sure everyone else did as well. Discussion ended.

EDIT: And it looks like EP is called off for now.

 

[mechaerik]

This is what comes of not having a military! We cannot allow ourselves to be seen as pushovers in the eyes of the world!

I agree with whosit, we need siege weaponry.

 

[arya126]

Ok i will recall the axemen. Why LH didnt send the warrior to norway instead of the axemen, i dont know. I said 'available unit' and id didnt think i had to say least valauble unit.

I see the catapults point now. Isee hwo they can help, although i do not see them assuch a huge priority as you do. BUT i will take your word for it as i ahve not tested your strategy myself. Im not sure how much production we can spare for them though, or if we can trade for construction at all. If not, it might be awhile before we can build them.

 

[Whosit]

Ok i will recall the axemen. Why LH didnt send the warrior to norway instead of the axemen, i dont know. I said 'available unit' and id didnt think i had to say least valauble unit.

Well, it's a lesson learned. Guess we have to be as specific with LH as possible.

I see the catapults point now. Isee hwo they can help, although i do not see them assuch a huge priority as you do. BUT i will take your word for it as i ahve not tested your strategy myself. Im not sure how much production we can spare for them though, or if we can trade for construction at all. If not, it might be awhile before we can build them.

Catapults cost 50 hammers apiece (or 2-pop, if you go that way). Construction isn't exactly cheap, but the sooner we start on it, the sooner we get Catapults. Metal Casting can be finished later. Honestly, it's doubtful that we can trade for it, but if it's available, I would pay whatever we're asked for it.

As for their priority, well, let me put it this way: If Rome only sends a unit here or there, yeah, we don't need them. But if a stack of 6+ units shows up, and all we have are a couple of Archers? Yeah, we'd be wishing we had a couple Catapults to throw at that stack. Better safe than dead, I say.

 

[Aysee]

I say research construction while seeing who can trade for it. And try to find war allies. And try to make peace as quickly as possible.


EDIT: We should build up an army of swordsmen and axes for use in a later counterattack. But if you think that the resources are needed elsewhere, then, they go elsewhere

 

[MathNerd]

Ditto as Aysee, except for the edit.

 

[Lighthearter]

Ok i will recall the axemen. Why LH didnt send the warrior to norway instead of the axemen, i dont know. I said 'available unit' and id didnt think i had to say least valauble unit.

Well, it's a lesson learned. Guess we have to be as specific with LH as possible.

YOU SAID TO USE A SWORDSMAN!!! YOU ALSO SAID TO USE THAT GALLEY IN THE NORTH SEA! I went to fetch a unit and when I found out that our sword wasn't completed I took an axeman off to Norway because Nuke and I in RL have discussed expansion and think that it's a good spot - it and Iceland.

And besides, if one axeman could make a life-and-death difference in this war, then we've had some really sucky previous administrations and deserve to lose! <Ravus and Cull stare angrily> What did I say?


- Lighthearter

 

[MathNerd]

And besides, if one axeman could make a life-and-death difference in this war, then we've had some really sucky previous administrations and deserve to lose! <Ravus and Cull stare angrily> What did I say?


- Lighthearter

The pattern seems to be CoD/F, GPC, CoF...

Look who's coming next! There are still some potential party changes coming up though, and the Monks as always will be a major swing vote.

 

[Whosit]

And besides, if one axeman could make a life-and-death difference in this war, then we've had some really sucky previous administrations and deserve to lose!

Can't disagree with this.

 

[MathNerd]

Hey!!!

 

[Sonereal]

Approximately six hours ago, England, our beloved motherland, was viciously assaulted by the vile Romans to the east. As we speak, the faceless and mysterious Roman legions are threating the lives of tens of thousands Englishmen who live in our colonies in Europe. Ravus-York, our chief city in Europe located near the heart of France, is being eyed by the greedy Romans.

So, brave Englishmen, I ask do you want to simply bow to the undeserved smugness of a Roman praetorian? Do you want to lay down and be smashed by the rocky ordinance of a Roman catapult? Do you want to feel the cold iron of a Roman gladius resting on the back of your neck as the Romans summarily execute all Englishmen in sight?

Or would you rather punch that smug smile off their faces? To burn their catapults in the field? To thrust your own sword into the sky as a sign of victory over the pitiful purple barbarians?


All Hail Britannia!


-Sonereal
Imperial Party of England

OOC: I had a lot of free time.

 

[MathNerd]

Everyone here except for me seems to be a good writer!!!

 

[arya126]

Wait did i say swordsmen? Well if i did it was because i didnt know we still had a warrior (where did he come from?) and because a swordsmen would best be able to defend against barbaraians. It was also wahat was being produced.

I disagree with peace ASAP. they have given us an opprotunity. we have to take it. Didnt we once think about taking Antium when we discovered rome had gotten to france first? So lets take it!

war allies are unlikely besides kublai khan and he wont do much. Plus we dont have the gold to offer a war ally. I dont klnow if theres anew feature in BTS but in warlords you have to bribe people to go to war with someone. Most of the time anyway.

 

[Sonereal]

Everyone here except for me seems to be a good writer!!!

Hey, I learned from the best (and from the propaganda-spewing Liberty Prime from Fallout 3).

Now, for something that isn't me spewing patriotic awesomeness that would make WW2 England blush.

The war with the Roman Empire has revealed a serious weakness in England and her European colonies in France and Iberia. At the time of this writing, the idea of "Emergency Powers" is spreading through Parliament. It would call for a massive draft across the Empire and postpone elections indefinitely. This document will detail the possible political, international, economic, domestic, and military realities of the war currently. Note: This report was written on the onset of war and as such, is open to change in the future.


Military

The onset of the war has revealed England's military weakness. The Roman Empire has shown itself to be our number one military threat. At the time of this writing, the Romans have unveiled the dangerous catapult. The catapult, when backed up by an army, will easily overwhelm Ravus-York at the current time.

Nottingham is possibly a lost cause. Rome will have a much easier time resupplying a force to capture the undefended city than England will have just trying to defend the city and keep the garrison resupplied. While two archers are reportedly being shipped to Nottingham, it is a token gesture at best.

Ravus-York does have a chance of holding out against Rome even though the terrain favors the attacker. The defense relies on quick reinforcement from London, as the Roman Legions will take time to reach the city. Ravus-York, as opposed to its "Roman sister," Atrium, doesn't have a high defense modifier (20% as oppose to Atrium's 50%). Depending on the size of the invasion force, the defenses could be reduced to zero in a short time frame before the invaders charge the city.

A naval invasion of Great Britain doesn't seem to be in the cards for Rome. A naval landing in Iberia, however, is. If Rome has the naval capacity to do so, they could land a force in Iberia and the war would be lost.

The only naval defensive plan that has been proposed at the time of writing is to push research into an experimental ship design called a "trireme". This ship, if stationed at the Gibraltar Strait, would trap the Roman Navy inside the Mediterranean Sea and prevent any invasion of Iberia.

President Arya has come up with a military plan. It calls for the training of archers through the European colonies and the training of sword infantry in Britain. His military plan is to A.) Defeat the invasion force then B.) Send a counterattack. The industrial capacity to train the optimal number of troops in time to capitalize on a Roman defeat is unknown at the time or writing.

The only cities that would not be training units would be those without granaries. This will greatly reduce defensive effectiveness in Europe. He also calls for training of axe infantry in Birmingham following the city training two archer units. The effectiveness of the plan depends on the production output of the city. The plan for the Britain island is to train fifteen (15) sword infantry with Liverpool training axe infantry once there are ten (10) sword infantry.

Item Four on President Arya's list is to ship one (1) unit of swordsmen and axemen each to Nottingham. Given Nottingham's lack of defensive modifiers, this may be a sound decision.

Item Five demands that a force of two (2) more archer units will be shipped to Nottingham to aid in the defense. If Nottingham does not fall to Rome before then, this could open up a northern front. Meanwhile, all archer units in Britain are to be transported to Ravus-York in France. Following this, constant shipping of swordsmen from Britain to Ravus-York will commence until the counter-attack force is at full strength.

Item Six stipulates that the warrior unit in Normandy will be ordered to return to Ravus-York and rearm itself to become an axe unit unless a large number of chariots approaches from Atrium, in which case the warrior will upgrade to something substantial. Ravus-York is to become a fortress city.

Item Seven calls for the defenses of the area in unclaimed northeastern Iberia to be fortified should the Romans choose the land route through unclaimed France.

Item Eight orders threatened workers in the countryside to return to their respective city if invasion looks sure. This order is meant for France, but applies to the entirety of the Empire.

Item Ten brings up the question of whether or not the German iron is being exploited by Rome. If it is, the Romans will have access to Praetorian Legions.

Item Eleven stipulates that slave labor and drafts will be used as long as the population of the city stays at three (3) or above. Two (2) in emergencies.

Item Twelve orders for continual funding of Metal Casting, followed by Monarchy, then Feudalism with the ultimate goal being to build longbows.

Item Thirteen demands an inquiry to how big the Roman invasion force is. Currently, it is only one (1) catapult.

Item Fourteen stipulates that the axe unit in Norway will continue exploring and once its job is completed, it will return to the Oslo area. The galley in the area will sail to Iberia.

Item Fifteen orders the complete halt of expansion into unclaimed territory.

(Note: No chariots are to be built)


Domestic

Even if Nottingham is not burned to the ground by Romans, England's people will still suffer. Massive drafts and use of slave labor will greatly reduce England's population which will have significant effects for the post-war economy.

The little infrastructure built up around Ravus-York in France has a good chance of being destroyed by invaders. Should the road networks be destroyed, England's own counter-attack will be bogged down.


Economy

No matter how the war plays itself out, England will suffer economically. The massive use of slave labor and drafts will reduce the workforce greatly. In France, the countryside may be pillaged by invaders. The massive military build-up will surely result in an increase of maintaining the army.

The only two ways to make up for the possible economic problems would be a counter-attack. The countryside around Atrium could be pillaged and fill the treasury or the city itself could be taken. However, should both be done at the same time, there will be hefty maintenance costs that won't be eased by a functioning countryside.


International

At the time of writing, what will happen internationally is up for discussion. At best, this will be a limited war fought in France, the Mediterranean, and Germany. At worst, Russia or the Vikings could come to the aid of their "Brothers and Sisters of the Faith." Should this happen, Britain will become open to invasion by Vikings and in a few years, England could be fighting against the might of the Roman Legions and Russian Army in France.


National Politics

MathNerd, Whosit, and ilDuce have voiced their opposition to the idea. Whosit has also voiced his opposition to the President's war plan.

MathNerd originally opposed the idea for building up for a possible offensive but Whosit's proposed war plan gained his support. Political bickering has broken out between the President and Opposition Leader, MathNerd, over one of MathNerd's statements taken out of context. Given that the power of the Opposition is possibly the highest its been in the history of England, this may not fare well in the long-run if cooler heads don't prevail. (As of posting, they have).

Any further report will be premature.

All items brought up in this report is subject to change.


-END OF REPORT-

 

[Sonereal]

I disagree with peace ASAP. they have given us an opprotunity. we have to take it. Didnt we once think about taking Antium when we discovered rome had gotten to france first? So lets take it!

That's weird. When Rome discovered that we had expanded into France, they talked about taking York. Looks like they took the opportunity to do so.

war allies are unlikely besides kublai khan and he wont do much. Plus we dont have the gold to offer a war ally. I dont klnow if theres anew feature in BTS but in warlords you have to bribe people to go to war with someone. Most of the time anyway.

You're right. We would have to bribe people. Problem is is that even if we had the money, we have to assume that the Vikings and Russians like Rome and therefore the only threat to Rome I can think of is Carthage.