Rebalance of 2/3 of all civs in April!

[bbbt]

Just give Khmer the Grand Barclay as an aqueduct UD and give them a new UA. Maybe "Worker Priests" specialist receive +2 food +2 Faith in addition to yields.

I agree the UK is a bit of a long read, though in service of a common theme (building strong IZs). Maybe instead give them production trade bonuses (a niche not used yet)? +1 prod per trade route to the outgoing city. Additional +1 per harbor or IZ building in the outgoing city?

I think Norway isn't in a bad place now with the pillaging changes. Could give them an additional UA so maybe it only takes 1 movement to pillage for all units?

 

[Vargas1]

A couple of thoughts on some of the civs I think need some balancing (mostly boosts):

• Spain - I'd love to see Spain get extra Great Prophet points for discovery/exploration events (which will get converted into faith once Spain gets a Great Prophet). Something like +5 points for discovery a new continent or natural wonder, +2 for meeting a civilization, and +1/turn for cities founded on a different continent than the capital. This would give them a pretty strong push towards founding a religion while letting them focus on the exploration side of things.
• France - I liked the suggestion someone made above about having all wonders get +2 culture. I'd also be down with a rebalance of the Chateau - maybe limit it to one per city, have it give a base +4 culture, and have it give an amenity (or two if next to a wonder).
• Cree - Instead of having the Okihtcitaw start with a free promotion, I'd have them start with both the Ranger and Alpine promotions unlocked. That would make them the ultimate early game scout, which ties in nicely with Cree's boosts to alliances and other early game bonuses.
• Egypt - I like the idea of removing the negative appeal for floodplains. I also like the idea of additional food in some manner - either starting with a granary or having farms/plantations along rivers get +1 food, something like that.
• Japan - Have the +4 culture for Electronics Factory come as soon as the building is built (not with Electricity), and have it get converted into tourism at Flight.
• Khmer - Give holy sites +2 adjacency for being next to a river. That ties in with their other abilities and negates the opportunity cost of building next to a river at the expense of building in mountains away from a river. I'd also halve the production cost of Domreys.
• Norway - I agree the stave church would be best disconnected from the holy site - have it be a city center building or a unique improvement.
• Scottish - Add to Bannockburn (which I find nearly useless) that you get +1 amenity in each city for each friendship/alliance you have. If the point is to incentivize peace and friendship, then really lean into it.
• Mapuche - I haven't played them enough to offer a fully thought-out idea, but Swift Hawk needs a full rework. Or, if its going to remain focused on loyalty, have it be something permanent - every unit you defeat from a civilization gives you +1 loyalty pressure to any of their cities within range of your cities (no idea if that would be too overpowered; could cap it at some level). Having it be a one-off lowering of loyalty by 20 is meaningless, since you're likely either going to capture the city anyway, or if not the loyalty will just recover before it makes a difference.

 

[Jewelrunna]

Ok, quick. Long list of assorted ideas off the top of my head:

America

Film Studio: Tourism applies to civs in all eras; modern era is a silly requirement

Arabia:

Mamluk: Requires 5 iron instead of 10

Australia: Reduce production bonus from being attacked to 75% instead of 100%

Aztecs: Eagle Warrior, reduce to 26 strength from 28. Tlachtli gives +2 amenities base; +2 faith for each adjacency luxury resource.


Babylon: -60% science instead of 50%

Brazil: Gets 15% of the GPP required to recruit the next GP.

Byzantines: Reduce bonus of cav to 75% damage vs cities when applied. +2 strength per holy city owned

Canada: +1 favor/ for each 50 culture instead of 100 tourism (absolutely useless). +1 extra favor per friendship and alliance. Mountie available at Natural History.

Cree: UU reduced to 35 production instead of 40

Dutch: River bonus applies to all applicable districts

Egypt: Cities on River gain a free granary, and +1 gold to cover the maintenance.

England: Start with boost to Industrialization. Gain +3 iron every turn when iron working is researched.

Victoria: Gain an inspiration when building a Royal Navy Dockyard for the first time on a continent

France: All wonders generate +2 culture. Chateau +2 culture base

Gaul: Combat bonus does not apply to attacking cities.

Gran Columbia: Movement bonus only applies to Military units until Engineering, when it applies to all units.

Georgia: Cities that follow Georgia's Religion gain +2 faith per level of wall. Gain an additional military slot when in a Golden Age. Can declare Protectorate War at Political Philosophy.

Greece: Increase cost of Acropolis to 75% of a regular district.

India: Stepwells give +2 housing. Your majority religion gives +2 amenities. Other religions also give +2 amenities if city is 15 pop or larger.

Khmer: +30% production to aqueducts, dams, and water mills. Cities that follow your majority religion have +10% to growth. Domrey 48 strength.

Korea: Increase cost of Seowon to 75% of a regular district.

Mali: -20% to buildings, instead of 33%. Malus towards units stays the same.

Mapuche: Can build Chemamull on Charming tiles too.

Mayans: +1 Amenity, +1 housing to cities with a government building

Nubia: Reduce bonus towards ranged unit production and experience to 25%.

Russia: Increase cost of Lavra to 75% of a regular district. Reduce Great Writer points to 0.5, and increase artist points to 2.

Scotland: Happiness bonus affects all yields, instead of just science and production.

Spain: Start with Foreign Trade boosted. Mission available at Theology. Gain 2 additional trade routes @ Exploration.

Sumeria: War cart reduced to 28 strength. Can form alliances at Defensive Tactics.

Sweden: Also gain 100 gold x era for each GP recruited. Increase slots for its unique building to 6 slots.

Globally (will never happen I know):

Reduce scaling of chopping and pillaging by 75%

Reduce Yields of Occupied Cities by 100% for 10 turns (back to 50% after)

Make catas and bombards stronger!

Some thoughts:

America: Pretty sure how the film studio works is that it applies double tourism to any Civ that has reached the modern era or later. It's a misconception from poor wording that it only applies for the modern era. How I'd rebalance Rough Rider Teddy is actually through the Rough Rider unit, which I think has a really high opportunity cost for its era. Make it a Cuirassier replacement so you can upgrade into it. Bull Moose Teddy is obviously fine.

Arabia: Honestly, I think this Civ is fine; in fact, I think Arabia should be the benchmark for how strong Civs should be. That said, I like your idea for the Mamluk and makes the unit better without breaking Arabia. One other thing I'd love to see for Arabia, even though it's not a balance change really, is an alternate leader with Harun al-Rashid that has a trade/culture focus.

Australia: Honestly, nerf the LA to 50%. 75% is just a slap on the wrist.

Aztec: Agree with this, but I think you'd also have to reduce the production cost on the Eagle Warrior or that unit would be pretty rough. The idea for the Tlachtli is brilliant.

Babylon: Fair, but I think the real problem with Babylon is just unlocking techs super out of order. The way I'd change them is make it so if you complete a eureka, you don't automatically unlock the tech; you have to complete the prerequisite techs as well, at which point the tech auto-completes if you have the eureka. If that's too much of a nerf, you could even bring the default science penalty down to 40-30%.

Brazil: Honestly, maybe increase tourism to the city you're running Carnival in while the project is active after researching a late-game tech/civic? Say, Flight, Natural History, Mass Media, or Professional Sports? Not a crazy modifier, maybe like 15%. I feel like buffing Amazon or Magnanimous too much would make the Civ broken. The main problem Brazil has it that the Street Carnival (and Entertainment Complexes as a whole) are just kinda... awkward to build. Making them strong in the late-game culture would give them a pretty valuable niche that pushes you directly towards a victory condition, without overruling their "jack of all trades" design.

Byzantium: Fair.

Canada: Like this, but I think the Mountie is fine as is.

Cree: Cree are a pretty balanced Civ, but the UU could certainly use some help.

Dutch: Grote Rivieren is most certainly not the problem with this Civ, and it's a pretty great ability as is. In fact, the Dutch would at least be an A-tier Civ, if not for Radio Oranje, which is near-useless. Either buff that into relevancy (increase the culture and make the loyalty bonus not a complete joke) or replace it with an actual ability.

Egypt: That sounds insanely powerful. I think just buffing Iteru slightly would do the trick, if not for wonders (for fear of power creeping France) than at least fairly significantly for districts.

England: The real buff England needs is a naval unique unit that isn't a complete joke. Every day I pray we get the Ship of the Line back (or at least the Longbowman! I'd take it!), but if that's not gonna happen, then at least give the Sea Dog a combat boost. I also think that cross-continent or colonial-based abilities don't really work in Civ, so the Royal Navy Dockyard buff, while nice, is super-niche.

Victoria: Much like with England, the colonial abilties in Civ don't really do it for me, so I think Pax Brittanica sort of has a fundamental flaw built into it. Also like with England, the real buff Vicky needs is a UU buff; if there was a Rifleman unit in the game that the Redcoat could replace, and therefore be upgraded into, Vicky would be so much better.

France: Love these ideas, but I also wish that the Garde Imperiale, much like the Redcoat, had a Rifleman to replace and upgrade into.

Gaul: Honestly haven't experimented too much with domination Gaul so I can't comment if they're too OP, but if it's too strong as is, then I can get behind this.

Gran Colombia: I actually don't really wanna nerf GC's movement bonus, since it's their defining trait. What I'd actually change is prevent Commandante Generals from stacking with normal Great Generals. We patched out that General stacking a long time ago, and it being a part of GC's kit, who don't need it as is, is just silly.

Georgia: I like all of these ideas.

Greece: Honestly, I think they're fine. Much like Arabia, I think they're the exact point of strength where Civs should be. Though I wouldn't mind a Hoplite buff. That unit's pretty trash.

India: I like the Stepwell buff, and I don't think the amenities change is really necessary. One thing I'd like to see is a new feature to Gandhi's LA that could push him towards a diplomatic victory too. Maybe receive a little bit of diplo favor for every Civ not at war as well?

Khmer: I like this idea. Maybe add the growth as part of the Prasat? I also wish we had a Trebuchet unit that the Domrey could replace, and be upgraded into from catapults.

Korea: Normally not a fan of increasing the cost of UDs, but in this case, it might be justified.

Mali: Seems fair.

Mapuche: I like this change, but what really needs to change about the Mapuche is allow units to upgrade into Malon Raiders, and a complete rework of Swift Hawk. That's the only ability in the game that actively hurts the player.

Maya: I like this, but I prefer the idea that lets the Maya chop resources from early on in the game. Maybe also protect improvements from disaster-related pillaging if next to an Observatory.

Nubia: Fair enough, but I think the Pitati Archers need a slap on the wrist themselves too. Way too strong.

Russia: All I'd really change is that you don't get the extra prophet point from the Lavra. It's already way too good for culture, it shouldn't also be a guaranteed religion for them too. Maybe make it so the Lavra also only grants the cultural great people points until you build the requisite cultural buildings in the city too?

Scotland: I think Scottish Enlightenment is fine as is, and your suggestion makes Scotland way too broken. But at the same time, I don't really have any other ideas for buffing them. Rework Bannockburn?

Spain: I like all these ideas, but the real problem is that Treasure Fleets is way too undertuned as is, and as I mentioned with Victoria, I don't think colonization-based abilities work in Civ.

Sumeria: I agree.

Sweden: I like the idea, but maybe make the ability 100 gold + (50xEra) instead. Queen's Bibliotheque doesn't need a buff, her tourism is already insane as is.

Globally: I agree with a flat chopping nerf, but if you don't scale down a lot of production costs in the game universally, especially for wonders, then the game is going to feel really, really bad to play.

EDIT: Also, for some other Civs that I'd like to see changed:

China: Buff Dynastic Cycles back up to 60%, and buff the Crouching Tiger somehow. Ideally, I'd like to see the Crouching Tiger replaced (can you imagine Civ VI China with the Chu-Ko-Nu??), but if not, then at least let them attack from two tiles at half-power (or their melee power).

Kongo: Give them back their 100% bonus to Great Merchants! I get the cultural GP points were too powerful, but a better bonus to Great Merchants would just help their overall game so much (and fit their history pretty well).

Norway: Buff the Stave Church like we've said in previous posts in this thread, make the Longboat more powerful, and (maybe) change the Berserker's bonus (say, they only gain 7-8 combat strength when attacking, but only lose 3 when defending). Also another buff to Berserker's I'll get to in a bit.

Phoenicia: Give the Bireme +1 movement if built in a city with a Cothon. Make trade routes from cities with a Cothon also give +2 gold (internal or external) once you research Mathematics.

Poland: This is a hard one, since Poland's kit is so... weird. Maybe give them a combat bonus against Civs that haven't founded a religion? Make Encampment buildings generate either Culture or Faith? I'm not really sure what to do with these guys, because they're so weird.

Scythia: Let Saka Horse Archers move after attacking.

General: Add new units to the game: Longswordsmen & Trebuchets (Medieval Era), Riflemen and Siege Cannons (Industrial Era), maybe differentiate between Great War & WWII-Vietnam infantry, and add some Renaissance cavalry units. Adding these to the game would buff the Civs that have hanging UUs that don't upgrade from anything, and allow them to be upgraded into instead of needing to be raw-built. This would in turn buff Garde Impériales, Redcoats, Khevsurs, Samurai, Domrey, Malon Raiders, Bersekers, and Winged Hussars (make them a replacement for Renaissance Cavalry, unlocked in Medieval era still).

 

[BD123]

I'm really liking some of the balance ideas you guys are coming up with!

Personally for Arabia I'd like to see Saladin be more military focused since that's what he's famous for. Harun al-Rashid could have the culture/science/religion hybrid niche but I highly doubt we'll see an alt leader for Arabia.

For Sweden I would do something like remove the +1 GPP for factories and universities and instead maybe have something like +1 GPP for every worked specialist? That way you have a slight buff to gaining the GWAM that Kristina desperately wants and specialists aren't a very much loved system (if you can even call it a system) in Civ 6 so she'd be unique in that sense.

I don't play Victoria much (in fact only once) so I can't really come up an easy way to buff her up. Maybe

For Spain I was thinking of just dumping Treasure Fleets entirely. Maybe their ability could be something like "cities on the home continent receive +5% gold, faith, and production for every foreign continent with at least one Spanish city. Conquering cities on a foreign continent provides faith and gold proportional to the population." Rename it to Treaty of Tordesillas or something fancy since "Treasure Fleets" is pretty boring. Idk might be a bit wordy and confusing of an ability. The mission and conquistador could stay the same. Idk what to do with Phillip's El Escorial bc I had an idea to represent Spanish viceroyalties with the governors but then remembered governors aren't base game mechanics

 

[Archon_Wing]

America: Pretty sure how the film studio works is that it applies double tourism to any Civ that has reached the modern era or later. It's a misconception from poor wording that it only applies for the modern era.

I know. It's still awful. You don't want to have everyone in the modern era+. You don't really want anyone in the modern era+, if you want to win by culture because they will have built up too much domestic tourism and may be closing on Moon Landing. It's just a bizarre restriction that isn't helped by the fact that the base building is borderline useless.

Also consider people that play below Emperor. The AI will just not make it there.

I really think Rough Rider is fine. The +5 bonus on home continent allows you to expand with a small army and you can actually hold off barbs just by building scouts.

Arabia: Honestly, I think this Civ is fine; in fact, I think Arabia should be the benchmark for how strong Civs should be. That said, I like your idea for the Mamluk and makes the unit better without breaking Arabia. One other thing I'd love to see for Arabia, even though it's not a balance change really, is an alternate leader with Harun al-Rashid that has a trade/culture focus.

I feel like they got punched in the face in GS multiple times. And again with Byzantium. The buff is more symbolic, as it's unlikely to really impact things.

Babylon: Fair, but I think the real problem with Babylon is just unlocking techs super out of order. The way I'd change them is make it so if you complete a eureka, you don't automatically unlock the tech; you have to complete the prerequisite techs as well, at which point the tech auto-completes if you have the eureka. If that's too much of a nerf, you could even bring the default science penalty down to 40-30%.

Yea, but that would also take away a lot of the uniqueness of the civ, so I didn't want to mess with it as it has allowed for some bizarre strategies. Yes some of them are busted.

Maybe the solution is that you can't unlock a tech that's 2 eras ahead of the average world era and won't get it until that happens or something like that. Remember that making it -60% from -50% is a 20% decrease so it aims at weakneing their early game (you need to research SOMETHING to get most early eurekas), as well as their late game. I understand it's more a tap on the shoulder. I don't object to a 70% penalty either.

Brazil: Honestly, maybe increase tourism to the city you're running Carnival in while the project is active after researching a late-game tech/civic? Say, Flight, Natural History, Mass Media, or Professional Sports? Not a crazy modifier, maybe like 15%. I feel like buffing Amazon or Magnanimous too much would make the Civ broken. The main problem Brazil has it that the Street Carnival (and Entertainment Complexes as a whole) are just kinda... awkward to build. Making them strong in the late-game culture would give them a pretty valuable niche that pushes you directly towards a victory condition, without overruling their "jack of all trades" design.

I wouldn't object to the carnival or ECs in general to not take up a slot.

To explain my proposed change a bit better; currently you get 15% of the cost back for recruiting a Great Person. Sounds great, except Great People get more expensive the more you recruit, so it is kinda crap in that sense.

Canada: Like this, but I think the Mountie is fine as is.

It's okay, but the thing with Canada is that everything comes so late; I think giving Canada a 1 civic headstart for parks would make them stand out, especially since naturalists are cheaper now and that's effectively a nerf to Canada.

Dutch: Grote Rivieren is most certainly not the problem with this Civ, and it's a pretty great ability as is. In fact, the Dutch would at least be an A-tier Civ, if not for Radio Oranje, which is near-useless. Either buff that into relevancy (increase the culture and make the loyalty bonus not a complete joke) or replace it with an actual ability.

It's more for them to allow them to catch up with other creeped civs (hello Japan). I guess Radio Oranje can be buffed, but I actually use that +1 culture a lot.

Egypt: That sounds insanely powerful. I think just buffing Iteru slightly would do the trick, if not for wonders (for fear of power creeping France) than at least fairly significantly for districts.

Well, I will launch the counterargument that floodplains are extremely crap early on (1 food, cannot support itself). Egypt probably doesn't need a buff anyways, but I just think that would be different. Maybe a free water mill @ wheel would work too.

Gaul: Honestly haven't experimented too much with domination Gaul so I can't comment if they're too OP, but if it's too strong as is, then I can get behind this.

Been rushed too much by AI Gaul, and rushing as Gaul. It's pretty mindless.

Gran Colombia: I actually don't really wanna nerf GC's movement bonus, since it's their defining trait. What I'd actually change is prevent Commandante Generals from stacking with normal Great Generals. We patched out that General stacking a long time ago, and it being a part of GC's kit, who don't need it as is, is just silly.

Well, it's not that big of a nerf. I just made it so civilians can't move as fast until Engineering while Military units aren't affected at all. Rapid moving builders is OP that early because it's like instantly entering a Golden Age (ok you can't buy them with faith) but it makes chopping anything out really easily.

I considered the general nerf too but I think that would make people a bit unhappy, plus great generals are their own investment.

Greece: Honestly, I think they're fine. Much like Arabia, I think they're the exact point of strength where Civs would be. Though I wouldn't mind a Hoplite buff. That unit's pretty trash.

Hoplites are ok ever since they reduced the bonus from melee against them. Greece I think is a bit too strong (more Pericles though) but I don't mind ignoring them xD

India: I like the Stepwell buff, and I don't think the amenities change is really necessary. One thing I'd like to see is a new feature to Gandhi's LA that could push him towards a diplomatic victory too. Maybe receive a little bit of diplo favor for every Civ not at war as well?

That's more to fit in to the theme of India and big cities, and let's make growing to 15+ a trend (though chances are these days we just ignore Rationalism and grow to w/e) Diplo would be fine too.

I'm in the minority that thinks India is pretty decent, but also pretty boring. So trying to make them stand out.

In the past I tried tying boosts to Evangelizing beliefs because most of the time it's not worth doing. They could gain +1 favor for each belief beyond the 1st one.

Korea: Normally not a fan of increasing the cost of UDs, but in this case, it might be justified.

I can't win with this one; someone's gonna hate me for it. I was considering reducing them to +3 so it shuts them out of Rationalism completely as @bengalryan9 suggested once, which I think is a good idea too.

Mapuche: I like this change, but what really needs to change about the Mapuche is allow units to upgrade into Malon Raiders, and a complete rework of Swift Hawk. That's the only ability in the game that actively hurts the player.

TBH I have no idea what to do with them. My change was to steer them to options other than just war, war, pillage!

Maya: I like this, but I prefer the idea that lets the Maya chop resources from early on in the game. Maybe also protect improvements from disaster-related pillaging if next to an Observatory.

Maya's just really weird, and I think it's tied to their crappy start plus the fact that they're not supposed to expand far. Though, in practice you may end up going wide anyways because -10% off 20 cities > 110% of 10 cities....

And yea maybe do something about the Observatory. It's a very boring building atm.

Nubia: Fair enough, but I think the Pitati Archers need a slap on the wrist themselves too. Way too strong.

Probably reduce the melee strength. I am doing some conservative things when it comes to nerfs.

Russia: All I'd really change is that you don't get the extra prophet point from the Lavra. It's already way too good for culture, it shouldn't also be a guaranteed religion for them too. Maybe make it so the Lavra also only grants the cultural great people points until you build the requisite cultural buildings in the city too?

Prophet points I think are fine because we don't have enough civs that have a guaranteed religion. Also I think seeing legions of homeless Great Writers is just tilting because he sabotoges all cultural victories. I just feel he should earn the gps.

I do like the idea of Russia getting more artists and faster. That makes it much more of a puzzle to take advantage of.

Scotland: I think Scottish Enlightenment is fine as is, and your suggestion makes Scotland way too broken. But at the same time, I don't really have any other ideas for buffing them. Rework Bannockburn?

Oh. I actually think Scotland is pretty bad atm. Reaching ecstatic is harder now, and honestly 10% more science is really piddling compared to the nonsense Japan or Korea can do. And even ignoring them, you have reefs and all that crap in a game that does mostly flat numbers.

Reworking Bannockburn and their UU (I forgot it existed) is a good idea too.

Sweden: I like the idea, but maybe make the ability 100 gold + (50xEra) instead. Queen's Bibliotheque doesn't need a buff, her tourism is already insane as is.

Sweden is one of those wildcard civilizations that either runs hot or cold. If you put Russia, China, or Greece in there, Kristina simply just gets denied hard. In a way I think they're similar to Brazil in that they're really good with winning harder but not so much when it's an uphill battle.

Remember that taking that building does mean you don't pick the other 2 rather strong t2 buildings and 2 great works shouldn't really tilt it over.

Also favor selling's been nerfed; I used to use recruiting GPs as my economy as Sweden. That's an adequate compensation IMO.

Globally: I agree with a flat chopping nerf, but if you don't scale down a lot of production costs in the game universally, especially for wonders, then the game is going to feel really, really bad to play.

I would personally scroll back on most t3 buildings and wonders myself for cost. Units though, are rather cheap given policy cards, and also nobody hard builds them anyways since upgrading old ones is so much easier. And I am definitely of the belief that warfare is generally too strong, even when you ignore the dumb AI.

I dunno; I want the game to have a slower pace, but at the same time you may be burdened with clicking end turn forever. It's a difficult balance, but winning in the early 200s or earlier on normal speed should be something cool to talk about and not just considered standard.

BTW, I added more civs to that post:


Indonesia: Entertainment Complexes grant +2 culture as well for being next to lake or coast.

Kongo: Mbanzas gain +2 faith if the city follows a religion, and +1 faith for each non-majority religion present in the city.

Norway: Stave Church grants +1 faith to Fishing Boats.


Poland: Encampments and Encampment buildings generate +1 Great Prophet Point, and Holy Sites gain +2 adjacency for being next to an encampment. Culture Bombing a tile grants Great General Points.

Anything I left out I think is fine, or I just forgot about. As an addendum, I realize I do not separate leader and civ abilities since in most cases it's the same thing. So I don't mind if some abilities are bad, as long as the whole kit works properly.

 

[Jewelrunna]

I know. It's still awful. You don't want to have everyone in the modern era. You don't really want anyone in the modern era, if you want to win by culture because they will have built up too much domestic tourism and may be closing on Moon Landing. It's just a bizzare restriction that isn't helped by the fact that the base building is borderline useless.

I really think Rough Rider is fine. The +5 bonus on home continent allows you to expand with a small army and you can actually hold off barbs just by building scouts.

If you're playing on higher difficulties, it's pretty normal for the AI to be at least at the modern era when you're building these; and if they're not in the modern era, your culture is probably good enough to overtake them anyways.

As for the Rough Rider, the ability is good--I'm talking about the UU he gets from it. The Rough Rider (the UU) is good on its own merits, but it's disgustingly expensive. It should either be cheaper, be a replacement for Cuirassiers so you can upgrade into them, or both.

Maybe the solution is that you can't unlock a tech that's 2 eras ahead of the average world era and won't get it until that happens or something like that. Remember that making it -60% from -50% is a 20% decrease so it aims at weakneing their early game (you need to research SOMETHING to get most early eurekas), as well as their late game. I understand it's more a tap on the shoulder. I don't object to a 70% penalty either.

I agree that you don't wanna gut their unique flavor, but it literally breaks the game in its current state. I like your suggestion too about two-eras ahead, but even still that could mean getting Crossbowmen while still in the middle of the Archer prime. I'm also not really in the favor of making their penalty worse; their early game is already kinda bad before you get the ball rolling, and making it worse just makes Babylon unfun. I'm personally more in favor of making their bonus have more hoops you have to jump through, while making it less penalizing.

I wouldn't object to the carnival or ECs in general to not take up a slot.

To explain my proposed change a bit better; currently you get 15% of the cost back for recruiting a Great Person. Sounds great, except Great People get more expensive the more you recruit, so it is kinda crap in that sense.

I like that not take up a slot idea. I also now see what you mean more for Magnanimous, and I can get behind that better. I will say, after having come up with that tourism idea, I'm endeared to it myself actually. It's a lot like Civ V's Brazil's ability.

It's okay, but the thing with Canada is that everything comes so late; I think giving Canada a 1 civic headstart for parks would make them stand out, especially since naturalists are cheaper now and that's effectively a nerf to Canada.

Mounties still give Canada a way to get National Parks that no other Civ can (through Production or Gold), which I think is plenty of a niche for the unit, even if Naturalists are cheaper. That lets you focus all your faith for Rock Bands and still get National Parks. I liked your other ideas for Canada though.

It's more for them to allow them to catch up with other creeped civs (hello Japan). I guess Radio Oranje can be buffed, but I actually use that +1 culture a lot.

Even with power creep, I think the Dutch are still really good outside of Radio Oranje. The culture from it is going to be constantly present, if not particularly powerful (or really powerful at all). The loyalty is just insulting. It's also just not a very fun ability anyways, compared to how unique the Dutch are in all their other abilities.

Well, I will launch the counterargument that floodplains are extremely crap early on (1 food, cannot support itself). Egypt probably doesn't need a buff anyways, but I just think that would be different. Maybe a free water mill @ wheel would work too.

Sure, but I still think if you were to make Districts say, 25% cheaper on rivers, that's plenty strong enough of a bonus. Leave the Wonder bonus where it is, so not to power creep France or Qin.

Well, it's not that big of a nerf. I just made it so civilians can't move as fast until Engineering while Military units aren't affected at all. Rapid moving builders is OP that early because it's like instantly entering a Golden Age (ok you can't buy them with faith) but it makes chopping anything out really easily.

I considered the general nerf too but I think that would make people a bit unhappy, plus great generals are their own investment.

It's a pretty big nerf, in my opinion. Gran Colombia's main thing is being so dang fast, so even if that ability is strong as it is, it's pretty much all they've got. Nerf that too much, and they become pretty mediocre. Plus, supersonic builders and settlers is fun as is. I think prevents Commandates and normal GGs from stacking is fine enough.

Hoplites are ok ever since they reduced the bonus from melee against them. Greece I think is a bit too strong (more Pericles though) but I don't mind ignoring them xD

Honestly, I'd take nerfing their CS boost a smidge in return for making them a bit cheaper than normal Spearman. You're asking a lot out of me to build a lot of those units.

That's more to fit in to the theme of India and big cities, and let's make growing to 15+ a trend (though chances are these days we just ignore Rationalism and grow to w/e) Diplo would be fine too.

I'm in the minority that thinks India is pretty decent, but also pretty boring. So trying to make them stand out.

In the past I tried tying boosts to Evangelizing beliefs because most of the time it's not worth doing. They could gain +1 favor for each belief beyond the 1st one.

I get what you mean here, and that's what I meant by saying I liked the Stepwell changes. I'm just not sure we need to radically overhaul Dharma; its fine in its current state. I just wish Gandhi's ability was better somehow.

I can't win with this one; someone's gonna hate me for it. I was considering reducing them to +3 so it shuts them out of Rationalism completely as @bengalryan9 suggested once, which I think is a good idea too.

I dislike the idea of locking them out of late-game Civics because of that. I think increasing the cost of Seowons is fine in Korea's case, so they don't snowball as early, and maybe making Seondeok's ability 2% for Science & Culture instead of 3%.

TBH I have no idea what to do with them. My change was to steer them to options other than just war, war, pillage!

They're not even good at war, because Swift Hawk actually makes this capturing cities potentially harder. It's a detrimental ability at worst, and near useless at best. That ability needs a complete rework.

Maya's just really weird, and I think it's tied to their crappy start plus the fact that they're not supposed to expand far. Though, in practice you may end up going wide anyways because -10% off 20 cities > 110% of 10 cities....

And yea maybe do something about the Observatory. It's a very boring building atm.

I think people overexaggerate their malus to cities outside of the ring. I think it's fine that they'll end up having like six super-cities and maybe, two-to-four mediocre cities. The real problems they have are their terribly slow start, and that if the resources next to your Observatory get pillaged, your Observatory is useless. My suggestions are intended to shore up those weaknesses. If that's not enough, maybe also give them extra housing in their capital, and in every city they settle afterwards they get a one-charge builder for free.

Probably reduce the melee strength. I am doing some conservative things when it comes to nerfs.

I share the conservative nerfs sentiment, but the Pitati are just frankly stupid. I'd be in favor of reducing their CS to 28, and/or making them more expensive (since even though they're technically more expensive than Archers, with Nubia's UA they're still significantly cheaper than other Civs' Archers despite being much, much stronger).

Prophet points I think are fine because we don't have enough civs that have a guaranteed religion. Also I think seeing legions of homeless Great Writers is just tilting because he sabotoges all cultural victories. I just feel he should earn the gps.

Eh, I think having a half-cost Holy Site is enough to make Russia easily a guaranteed Religion-getter. He doesn't need the extra Prophet points. And like I said, you can hold back the Great Writer points until he actually builds the corresponding building in the city too (Amphitheaters, Museums, Broadcast Towers) or a wonder that has a corresponding slot. That way he still has to "earn" the bonus. And he'll still have the free tile bonus from the jump from Lavras, which is already plenty strong.

Oh. I actually think Scotland is pretty bad atm. Reaching ecstatic is harder now, and honestly 10% more science is really piddling compared to the nonsense Japan or Korea can do. And even ignoring them, you have reefs and all that crap in a game that does mostly flat numbers.

Reworking Bannockburn and their UU (I forgot it existed) is a good idea too.

The Amenities nerf is a good point, but in that case what you should be buffing is Golf Courses, not Scottish Enlightenment. Either make them give more Amenities (say, if the city has a wonder) or make them come earlier. And yeah, Bannockburn and their UU are super irrelevant. I'd love to see a Braveheart-type Highlander in the Medieval Era instead. Too much of Scotland's design in Civ VI is British-themed, which I find weird.

Sweden is one of those wildcard civilizations that either runs hot or cold. If you put Russia, China, or Greece in there, Kristina simply just gets denied hard. In a way I think they're similar to Brazil in that they're really good with winning harder but not so much when it's an uphill battle.

Remember that taking that building does mean you don't pick the other 2 rather strong t2 buildings and 2 great works shouldn't really tilt it over.

Also favor selling's been nerfed; I used to use recruiting GPs as my economy as Sweden. That's an adequate compensation IMO.

Fair points, but I'm also a bit loathe to throw away Sweden's Diplomatic angle. Unless you mean the gold in tandem with Diplo favor. In which case, I think my edit to your gold idea is fair. And I do still think that the Bibliotheque is still a fine choice instead of the other buildings, especially because the theming bonus it gives you for basically free are still really powerful.

Indonesia: Entertainment Complexes grant +2 culture as well for being next to lake or coast.

Kongo: Mbanzas gain +2 faith if the city follows a religion, and +1 faith for each non-majority religion present in the city.

Norway: Stave Church grants +1 faith to Fishing Boats.


Poland: Encampments and Encampment buildings generate +1 Great Prophet Point, and Holy Sites gain +2 adjacency for being next to an encampment. Culture Bombing a tile grants Great General Points.

I added some ideas for other Civs in my original post too, if you'd be interested in taking a look.

Indonesia: I think this Civ is already strong, but I like this idea. Would this give tourism too?

Kongo: I like this idea because they really need the faith with the current state of the Culture Victory. I also like my idea for bringing back their Great Merchants bonus to its original glory.

Norway: I'd prefer to just make their Woods bonuses less of a joke than buff their coastal yields even more. And some minor touch-ups to their UUs. I feel like the board has sort of course-corrected too far in their evaluations of Norway. While yes, their Civ has a pretty strong niche rather than the aimless mess they were in the past, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Civ is suddenly a top-tier. There's still some parts of them that could use some buffs.

Poland: I like the Great Prophet points idea a lot, since it makes them both competitive in a Religion race and you get extra faith too. I also like the Culture Bomb -> GG points idea. Check out what ideas I had for Poland too, because I was scratching my head over them. They're a weird Civ.

I would personally scroll back on most t3 buildings and wonders myself for cost. Units though, are rather cheap given policy cards, and also nobody hard builds them anyways since upgrading old ones is so much easier. And I am definitely of the belief that warfare is generally too strong, even when you ignore the dumb AI.

I dunno; I want the game to have a slower pace, but at the same time you may be burdened with clicking end turn forever. It's a difficult balance, but winning in the early 200s or earlier on normal speed should be something cool to talk about and not just considered standard.

I agree with all of this regarding the T3 buildings and wonders costs. However, I do think the late game units are fairly expensive, even with cards, so I think a minor (not a huge one) reduction in cost is appropriate. And while I'd agree with the game having a slower pace, unfortunately the about of science and culture you end up earning drastically outpaces the production in this game, so rather than reduce the tech progression, I'd rather make production feel better.

 

[Archon_Wing]

f you're playing on higher difficulties, it's pretty normal for the AI to be at least at the modern era when you're building these; and if they're not in the modern era, your culture is probably good enough to overtake them anyways.

Eh, not sure how high we're talking, but below Deity you may have 1-2 AIs that reach that, and even @ it it's not that much more impressive if you keep culture suppressed by outcompeting for great works. I just feel removing the requirement may speed you up by some turns but not really enough to be a big deal. Definitely not OP.

I agree that you don't wanna gut their unique flavor, but it literally breaks the game in its current state. I like your suggestion too about two-eras ahead, but even still that could mean getting Crossbowmen while still in the middle of the Archer prime. I'm also not really in the favor of making their penalty worse; their early game is already kinda bad before you get the ball rolling, and making it worse just makes Babylon unfun. I'm personally more in favor of making their bonus have more hoops you have to jump through, while making it less penalizing.

Well by making their start worse, it serve as a proper counterweight to their other broken stuff.

How about prohibiting units being made unless you have the prerequisite for the tech? Or -5 strength? You could still build wonders and get cards.
.

The Amenities nerf is a good point, but in that case what you should be buffing is Golf Courses, not Scottish Enlightenment. Either make them give more Amenities (say, if the city has a wonder) or make them come earlier. And yeah, Bannockburn and their UU are super irrelevant. I'd love to see a Braveheart-type Highlander in the Medieval Era instead. Too much of Scotland's design in Civ VI is British-themed, which I find weird.

I just think the Golf Course is too restricted and at a weird civic. But none of these abilities are strong to me.

Posting that for now; don't feel strongly about the rest for the most part.

 

[DefiantMars]

The Kurgan is also a character in Highlander. I think that's the joke.

That would make a lot more sense. The joke totally went over my head.

Khmer: +30% production to aqueducts, dams, and water mills. Cities that follow your majority religion have +10% to growth. Domrey 48 strength.

I think the way Grand Barays and Monasteries of the King are designed that just too awkward as they are. I don't think that adding new effects without changing the existing ones would be quite sufficient, as they'd still feel weird in practice:

• Grand Barays: +3 Faith and +1 Amenity from Aqueducts. +2 Food for Farms adjacent to an Aqueduct.
• Jayavarman VII - Monasteries of the King: +2 Food and +1 Housing from Holy Sites adjacent to a river. Building a Holy Site triggers a Culture Bomb, claiming surrounding tiles.

I actually really like when Civs defy the district placing conventions, but I don't think the rewards here are all that great here.

At the bare minimum, I feel that their Holy Sites should get an adjacency bonus from being placed next to a river. I want to say it should be a Major Adjacency, but even a Standard Adjacency would be okay. It would make placing them on rivers away from mountains a lot better and free up the culture bomb a bit while also making mountain rivers really strong.

I also think giving Dams the faith and amenities and letting farms benefit from Dams would also be nice just from a thematic and practicality standpoint. Even if you have to adjust the yields. Bonus production to Aqueducts and Dams (maybe even Canals) to encourage players to actually build the Housing Districts would be sweet.

So just with those tweaks, I think the new abilities would read:

• Grand Barays: +2 Faith and +1 Amenity from Aqueducts and Dams. Farms adjacent to an Aqueduct or Dam get +2 Food. +30% Production towards Aqueduct and Dam districts.
• Jayavarman VII - Monasteries of the King: Holy Sites get Major bonus (+2 Faith) from nearby rivers and provide +2 Food and +1 Housing. Building a Holy Site triggers a Culture Bomb, claiming surrounding tiles.

Just give Khmer the Grand Barclay as an aqueduct UD and give them a new UA. Maybe "Worker Priests" specialist receive +2 food +2 Faith in addition to yields.

I am in agreement that leaning into their ability to grow Tall is probably a good move. I've seen suggestions or replacing the Prasat Building with a Baray District before and I like that direction a lot. But it is considerably more work and would requiring doing something about the Prasat. Which besides the general issues with Relics, I think is a fine enough building.

But I can imagine how the Baray district would look and it makes me excited.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So just with those tweaks, I think the new abilities would read:

• Grand Barays: +2 Faith and +1 Amenity from Aqueducts and Dams. Farms adjacent to an Aqueduct or Dam get +2 Food. +30% Production towards Aqueduct and Dam districts.
• Jayavarman VII - Monasteries of the King: Holy Sites get Major bonus (+2 Faith) from nearby rivers and provide +2 Food and +1 Housing. Building a Holy Site triggers a Culture Bomb, claiming surrounding tiles.

I am in agreement that leaning into their ability to grow Tall is probably a good move. I've seen suggestions or replacing the Prasat Building with a Baray District before and I like that direction a lot. But it is considerably more work and would requiring doing something about the Prasat. Which besides the general issues with Relics, I think is a fine enough building.

But I can imagine how the Baray district would look and it makes me excited.

To be honest, thematically I'd like a Baray district to replace the Dam more than a unique aqueduct, like others have mentioned. However considering that came in GS, and the Khmer are basically a base game DLC, it's unlikely. But I agree in incentivizing dams in addition to aqueducts and these abilities are perfect.

 

[Xandinho]

Some changes I'd like to see:

America: edited. I had a better idea for this one:
After you build a Film Studio, it's enable in the city a project that allows you to generate a unique great work: Great work of movie.
Great work of movie gives +4 culture, +4 gold, +10 tourism and +1 amenity and they can be placed only in Film Studios.
Each Film Studio has 1 slot for Great work of music and 2 slots for Great works of movie.

Aztec: Tlachtli giving more faith and Great Generals points per turn.

Babylon: to balance things, you can only unlock techs and civics that are at most an era ahead of the era you are in. (If you are in the medieval era, you can only unlock techs and civics from at most until the Renaissance era).

Brazil: Street carnival gives tourism based on its tile appeal. Copacabana gives +1 appeal to all tiles in the city, +2 appeal to adjacent tiles.
Get +1 extra era point every time a Great Person is recruited.

Netherlands: Stock exchange earlier and half price. You receive 1 extra trade route when the first stock exchange is built. International trade routes receive +1 gold for each luxury resource at the destination.

Egypt: start the game in the golden age in which you can choose between the following dedications:
Bonus for building wonders and districts.
Starts with 3 free builders.
Impulse of science to research techs of the ancient era.
Impulse of culture to research civics of the ancient era.
And make Maryannu Chariot Archer stronger.

England: you get a free naval unit every time a building in the Royal Navy Dockyard is built.
Make the Sea Dog stronger.

France: tourism of Wonders in the capital is triplicate.
Make the Château a little stronger.

Georgia: I don't know, maybe extra faith and culture when you're in a golden or heroic age.

India: holy sites at half price and they grant extra Great Prophet points and extra culture.
Make Stepwell better.

Khmer: dams giving faith, food and extra housing.

China: get +1 era point every time you research a technology or civic that is an era ahead.
Make Crouching Tiger better.

Japan: each electronics factory provides a unique luxury resource source: Electronics. Electronics give +6 amenities and can be sold to other civs.
You generate +15% tourism in civs in which you sell your electronics.

Norway: Stave Church gives +2 production and +1 faith in maritime resources. And +1 faith, +1 production and +1 culture on tuntra's resources.

Poland: gains an extra unit every time an Encampment is built. Buildings in the Encampment district provide culture.
Make Sukiennice better.

Persia: governors grant extra loyalty and extra gold based on the amount of promotions.

Scythian: I don't know... maybe make Kurgan and Saka Horse Archer better.

Spain: extra Great Prophet points in the district of holy site. Extra combat strength in civilizations on another continent.
+1 extra trade route after mercantilism.

Russia: receive culture and science of trade routes from other civilizations to you.

Maya: invert the bonus of yields. +15% if it is within 6 tiles of the capital and -10% if it is more than 6 tiles.

 

[Flactine]

I hope it can add new kinds of ability, not only edit the numerical.

 

[Ticio]

I've never understood the amount of attention Victoria gets from Firaxis and Civfanatics. Unless your someone who uses her as an avatar. I would transfer the early armadas and fleets to Victoria. Without a unique district or ship to build it doesn't help Spain catch up nearly as much as it would Vicky.

I think giving Victoria earlier armadas could be a problem.
If Victoria and England have already easier access to extra naval units (Free naval units+ RND 50%) giving them the earlier armadas bonus would be too strong.

Free naval units every time you make a RND, but also the ability to turn them in armadas?

I mean, imaging being able to make Seadogs armadas as soon as Colonialism! They would be unstoppable and they would take all enemies ships with their ability (as armadas have a +17 Ranged strength, the key factor for capturing units).

In my opinion it would be too OP, and worst! If they manage to have Victor promotion ability + Venetian arsenal... I think no other civ could compete on water.
It would also remove the only “naval” bonus for Spain, a supposed “naval Civ”. I think it would be estrange as they have a starting water bias, but no water bonus.

 

[679x]

To address Lautaro's Swift Hawk ability:

I can't find it but I think someone said something about making the loyalty reduction also weaken the effects of loyalty pressure on that city so that it can't flip back as easily.

So, my proposal is for Swift Hawk's loyalty reduction to also reduce the positive loyalty pressure the city receives from the civ's other nearby cities by 50% for a set number of turns or for as long as Mapuche units remain in the city's territory, and if the city flips to a Free City, it keeps the same amount of health the city had when it flipped and it does not spawn new Free City units immediately. Also, a Free City either A: cannot flip from further Swift Hawk loyalty reductions, or B: can flip to Mapuche through loyalty reductions if the loyalty reductions + passive loyalty pressure from Mapuche cities are enough to flip the city to them before it flips back to anyone else (i.e. the loyalty reductions to a free city count as bonus loyalty to Mapuche).

With these changes, the Mapuche don't have to worry about losing progress sieging a city when it flips to a free city or flips back to the original owner, which shouldn't ever have been things that can happen anyway, and the loyalty reductions aren't immediately counteracted by the enemy civ's other cities. This was also a pretty silly thing because the civ ability is incentivized toward warring civs in golden/heroic ages, who also have much greater loyalty pressure to weaken Swift Hawk's effects, so the leader ability had a great deal of anti-synergy with the civ ability, on top of being detrimental to Mapuche on its own. Then, forceful conquering without direct sieging could actually be viable, even if it's just to cripple an enemy empire by having their cities sit free without having to worry about excess warmonger penalties.

Of course, that still leaves the Chemamull having no connection to the rest of the civ whatsoever. I don't know what I would do to change that, though.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Of course, that still leaves the Chemamull having no connection to the rest of the civ whatsoever. I don't know what I would do to change that, though.

Considering Chemamull were built to primarily honor their dead ancestors it should work similar to the monument. Which is provide some loyalty on top of the culture it already gives.
At least the loyalty bonuses fit in with the rest of their civ.

 

[UWHabs]

Considering Chemamull were built to primarily honor their dead ancestors it should work similar to the monument. Which is provide some loyalty on top of the culture it already gives.
At least the loyalty bonuses fit in with the rest of their civ.

I wonder if you gave the chemamull a bonus like "-1 loyalty to all foreign cities within 9 tiles" as a sort of similar effect to Eleanor if you want it as an "offensive pressure" improvement. Or if you got creative, you could maybe even give it as a bonus similar to the monument as you mention - so have it give +1 loyalty to the city in question, but if it's already at 100%, then give +1 culture instead. Wouldn't be a lot, but it would be a cool situation where you capture a city with some loyalty issues, and pop a couple improvements down in the captured lands to keep the city from flipping back.

 

[DefiantMars]

To be honest, thematically I'd like a Baray district to replace the Dam more than a unique aqueduct, like others have mentioned. However considering that came in GS, and the Khmer are basically a base game DLC, it's unlikely. But I agree in incentivizing dams in addition to aqueducts and these abilities are perfect.

If there was no concern about workload or making new assets, I completely agree making a Baray would absolutely be my preference as well. I think a Baray is a lot closer to a dam than an aqueduct, being a reservoir for water after all. So if they made a unique Dam, I'd be all for it, but I don't see that happening unfortunately.

But to entertain the thought, maybe it would look something like this:

Baray - District
Unlocked by: Engineering?
Lower production cost (40 vs. 81)

Must be built on a Floodplains or Marsh tile but does not need to be adjacent to a River.
Ignores Population requirement.
Only one Dam can be built per city.
+2 Faith
+4 Housing
+2 Amenities from Entertainment
+1 Appeal to adjacent tiles (Normal Dam function)
Prevents Food loss during Droughts
Acts as a Bridge over its river (if adjacent)
Military Engineers can spend a charge to complete 20% of a Baray's Production cost.

I'm not sure if it would keep the Flood damage and Flood yield changes the normal Dams provide.

I've penciled in Engineering as the unlock so they wouldn't need to go to the opposite side of the Tech tree to get their UD. But I'm not dead-set on that placement.
I would bake in the Amenities and Faith that my proposed buff would provide them just to clean things up.

If they had a UD like this, I'd change the abilities to let the Hydroengineering districts provide standard? adjacency to Holy Sites, maybe in addition to the major River adjacency that has been proposed to really reward the city planning? The Food to farms change could probably stay in the CA, especially since the way I worded the change doesn't mean the Food would stack to +4.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Honestly I'd like to see all the "bonus to a certain casus belli" abilities scrapped (Georgia, Scotland, Chandragupta, are there more?). They rely too much on what other people are doing.

 

[bbbt]

Honestly I'd like to see all the "bonus to a certain casus belli" abilities scrapped. They rely too much on what other people are doing.

I think Chandragupta's is fine, as it's a pretty easy one to get (and one you can establish yourself by forward settling).

Scotland and Georgia - yeah, replace them. Maybe if War of Liberation was expanded to include CS's and not limited to AIs, Scotland's would be more useful.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Honestly I'd like to see all the "bonus to a certain casus belli" abilities scrapped (Georgia, Scotland, Chandragupta, are there more?). They rely too much on what other people are doing.

Cyrus gets a bonus to Surprise Wars and, as mentioned above, Chandragupta's is pretty easy to get. Honestly, I want a leader with an unique casus belli.

 

[DefiantMars]

Honestly I'd like to see all the "bonus to a certain casus belli" abilities scrapped (Georgia, Scotland, Chandragupta, are there more?). They rely too much on what other people are doing.

I think Chandragupta's is fine, as it's a pretty easy one to get (and one you can establish yourself by forward settling).

Scotland and Georgia - yeah, replace them. Maybe if War of Liberation was expanded to include CS's and not limited to AIs, Scotland's would be more useful.

I completely agree with either drastically upgrading the CB Leader Abilities or flat out replacing them.

I do think that of the Casus Belli abilities, Chandragupta's ability works the best, but I still think a small scale domestic effect for when you want to shift gears or if enemies are out of reach would serve him well. As I already mentioned, I generally dislike Civs that are purely War oriented. I feel like they should at least approach domination in a new angle and I don't think Chandragupta does that. He only taps into India's other benefits tangentially like with the extra Amenities to help support captured cities.

I just think something else to cement his niche in the Militant Expansionist role would be cool.