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Rebalance of 2/3 of all civs in April!

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by goatdeer, Jan 27, 2021.

  1. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    I agree that Cyrus's is OK, and maybe Chandragupta's (but I still don't like it) but I'd probably rid of the rest anyway. Or at lesat give Robert the Bruce's to Simon Bolivar, who is known as the liberator!
     
  2. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    Giving a War of Liberation boost to a warmonger is just kind of weird and probably wouldn't work too well. I feel like a better solution would be to give Robert and Tamar additional abilities to compensate for the limitations of their CB boosts.
     
  3. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    That's true, it wouldn't really fit Colombia's gameplay bonuses. Honestly I think Simon should play sort of like the Mapuche... anti-colonial style. Perhaps instead of this movement rubbish, he should get +combat strength against civs who have a different home continent, or something like that.
     
  4. Kung-Fu knight

    Kung-Fu knight Chieftain

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    Does anyone hope that they review units in the update? I really hope that they buff recon units. They just seem too useless to bother with building after the initial exploratory phase. I wish they could ignore borders and become invisible to non-adjacent units without an upgrade, like a land privateer. Maybe have them boost spies in cities they are camped in, like you would expect a recon unit to do.

    Also why do need to choose between movement penalties in forests or penalties on hills?? Why not just make that one promotion?
     
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  5. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    I think Scouts should work like they did in Civ 5 and just ignore terrain. Change their movement abilities into getting bonuses from discovering things, that's what scouts are for. Stuff like:

    Gain faith when discovering natural wonders, gold for discovering a new civ or city state, science for a continent, etc. Then again, you wouldn't get to use these very often, so maybe these should be in-born abilities and the promotions should give more sight or movement or defense etc...

    Since they're meant to recon, perhaps they should act like early observations balloons and give some kind of bonus to ranged units if your scouts are near an enemy?
     
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  6. Linklite

    Linklite King

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    Depends on the CB. As others have mentioned, Cyrus' is absolutely fine, because the agency rests on the player - I can always declare a surprise war, unless I'm in a game full of Canadas, but that would be self inflicted anyway. Scotland puts me off ever playing them - I have the opportunity to declare a liberation war perhaps once in every five games or so, and even then I might choose not to. Complete waste of an ability. Every ability should be exploitable in every (reasonable) game.

    Not sure of Chandragupta's one, it sounds useful, but it rarely comes up for me. I tend to have other, better CBs or its not avaliable, although with his bonus I might choose it more often.

    Australia (kind of counts) I'm fine with due to how universal it is - at some point someone will declare war on you, or you liberate a city (does restoring a free city count?). Between the two, one should happen.

    Georgia is the worst, I can count the number of times I've had the opportunity to use it on one hand - and never as Tamar. Once walls go up, it's rare for CSs to be taken. Before they go up, it's rare that I'm going to be the suzerain of that CS and ready to go to war. To be fair though, she has thr 2x envoys so it’s not so bad.

    So, really, it's Scotland and Georgia (mostly Scotland, they essentially have no leader, worse than Wilhelmina) that needs to be looked at, it's far too dependent on rarish events.
     
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  7. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    The CB's are mostly fine. If you can't declare a territorial war as Chandragupta, then you're probably not declaring a war to begin with.

    Georgia's obviously the weakest but it has more to do with Protectorate War coming in too late. Although I would like a game where they don't attack city states....

    If you want to use Georgia's abilities, you'd be best off getting Amani first.
     
  8. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    If Georgia was able to, say, declare protective wars starting at political philosophy + could do it with any CS she had an envoy in even if not suzerain, that would be pretty nice. Frankly that'd be an upgrade and she's STILL need a bit of a buff, but not everybody has to be super strong... Georgia is fairly good at diplomatic victories and religious victories, which is fine.
     
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  9. Pfeffersack

    Pfeffersack Deity

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    CB related boni suffer IMO mainly for two reasons:

    1.) Overall to static gameplay, when it comes to conquest. If most of the game is a stalemate anyway because of city defenses and battery fire from city and encampment strikes, even "cheaper" war declarations with an extra bonus don't help you a lot. If city defenses were less of an obstacle and damage levels for units lower (so that not most get one- or twoshotted) you could get more out of those abilities
    2.) AIs suffer even more from 1) and additionally by never to hardly ever using CB war declarations
     
  10. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Warlord

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    For the CB bonuses, I think Cyrus and Chandragupta's are fine because to a large degree you control the ability to activate them. Australia's isn't really a CB bonus, but it's related and I think is also fine - it serves the purpose of protecting you if you get declared on, and it's not too hard later in the game to find cities to liberate if you want to. Tamar's is ok, since I've found protectorate wars are reasonably common. I like the idea of letting her do it earlier and with any city-state where she has an envoy.
    Scotland's is pretty garbage. I would be a fan of having theirs work for protectorate wars as well as wars of liberation, and/or having it borrow from Australia and apply to liberating cities as well. As it is, I've played a few games with Scotland and never had an opportunity to activate it, and the one game where I did, there is actually an incentive to not recapture the city for your ally (since if you leave it in enemy hand's you can just keep declaring a war of liberation then making peace and get the bonus 10 turns on and 10 turns off).
     
  11. tsf4

    tsf4 Warlord

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    I hope they buff the scout units more. What annoys me is the water defense. This leads to whole continents being undiscovered until late in the game. If a barb ship finds you, you are toast. Right now I use religious units to scout due to being able to get through other civs. But barbs destroy them too! Argh
     
  12. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Give scouts +1 sight (or a card/promotion that does it) and I think they're right.
     
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  13. jasper

    jasper Warlord

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    Said once ill say it agaim, scout and l cav fill the same role and encroach on each others abilities. They are both light, mobile, raiders/pillagers. Eliminate l cav and consolidate the two units.

    Scouts will now be the flank, pillage, mobile unit that can snipe back line siege units and go behind enemy lines.

    Making an entire unit just to uncover map is great for the first 50 turn. This game doesnt even need scout upgrades past skirmisher.
     
  14. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

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    I think it was Civilisation Revolution where the ships you built came with a 'Ranger Militia' unit like a raiding or exploration party made from the ships crew that could jump off the ship to search ruins, explore deeper inland and clear an unguarded camp. I really liked that feature I wish it had come back to the main series so I could send my scouting galley to check out a remote village or have my caravel get a bit more information on the new continent without having to wait for a slow scout to sail over.
     
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  15. tsf4

    tsf4 Warlord

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    sounds like a great upgrade instead of ranger.
     
  16. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Prince

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    Georgia has focus on things quite strange for me: Era Score, Walls, Protectorate War and out-of-line unique units with no way of producing them (contrary to Victoria). More on my thought down there:
    Spoiler :

    • Era Score: there is no reward from overdoing it, and Georgia has bonus to stay in perpetual Golden Age, but not entering one. From my games, I do not really struggle to stay in Golden Age, just entering the classical Golden Age can be tough. The Georgian ability does not even help torward that.
    • Walls: they are not bad. They prevent to be annexed. But if you are at risk to be annexed, then you are quite in difficult position where it is not easy to come back. The problem of Walls is opportunity cost: if you are never going to be invaded up to Steel, nor care about the 6 Tourism, then you can ignore it completely.
    • Protectorate War: It is hard to trigger. Because it is passive: you have to watch out if any civilizations are attacking your city-state, and the game is very discreet about it when it is happening. To be honest, it is when I found out the AI razed the City-State that I reload just to enjoy the free Faith from it (the City-State wasn't going to last).
    • Khevsur: Not a bad unit (not great either), but suffer from being out of the line and fail in comparaison with a Swordsmen rush (where you can upgrade from Warrior). Make the Warrior / Swordsman able to upgrade to it.

    I might be wrong, but I have the feeling that Georgia is a good civilization when you are going bad, and bad when you are going good, even if I can suspect many people are able to do something amazing with it. It has a Faith focus, Golden Age and City-State focus, for all I can say.

    I would love to see some unique mechanic, and feel great to play. For example,it could play a lot on the pressure, increasing her Loyalt and Religious pressure. I have poor imagination, but here some ideas:
    A gameplay around Walls and passive game.
    Tamar unlocks the Walls earlier, meaning she can get the Tsikhe easier without going for it in the Tech tree. Building those Walls are helpful torward spreading her religion: she is probably the only leader that can use effectively Religious passive spread, while aiming to flip its neighboor (up to 3 Loyalty pressure per city). Do not forget that a civilization following her religion instead of their suffer from a Loyalty penalty too (-3).
    Georgia's ability helps torward that. You can purposely go into a Dark Age and aim for a Heroic Age for better Loyalty pressure, but is not able to safely chain the Golden Age anymore.
    The Casus Belli is transformed into something Tamar/Georgia can control: city flipping. It might be a little too powerful, and we are losing the "protector of city-state" side of the civilization. It still have a way to get numerous Envoys througth the Tsikhe. +1 Influence can really add up and be more valuable in the long run than a regular +1 Envoy (like Acropolis).
    Yes, this feels a lot the same as Eleanor, but it is done differently and feels more strategic.


    Babylon is quite strong, but clearly fun. You can unlock some advanced technologies quite early, like Flight:
    Spoiler :
    Here the chain of technologies:
    1. Research the Mining technology.
    2. Build 3 Mines → Apprenticeship (+1 Production to Mines)
    3. Build 2 Workshops → Industrialization (+1 Production to Mines)
    4. Build the Ruhr Valley → Flight (and Buttress)
    5. To power your Biplane with Oil:
      1. Build 1 Coal Power Plant → Refining (Oil)
      2. Build a Oil Well → Plastics (Spec Ops & +1 Food to Fishing Boats)
    The bottleneck could be the Ruhr Valley. But it is doable:
    • 1240 Production
    • +10% Production torward Wonder with Autocracy.
    • All your Mines are +3 Production at this time (+1 (base), +1 (apprenticeship), +1 (industrialization), potentially +1 Food with Palgum if next to a river).
    • Due to early Industrial Zone, you will end up to unlock some medieval Great Engineer:
      • Bi Sheng: +1 district slot and Printing (+1 diplomatic level).
      • Imhotep: 175 Production to wonders. ×2 if Ancient/Classical. Mausoleum is 400 Production, and Imhotep can really help (1 charge = 350, 385 with Autocracy).
      • Isidore of Miletus: 215 Production to wonders.
      • James of St. George: Instant Walls.
        • In the ideal case you could have 2 Imhotep charges and 3 of Isidore of Miletus, leading to almost 1000 Production torward Rhur Valley, 1100 with Autocracy. You just have to finish the remaining 140 last Production, which should take less than 5 turns at this point.
    That Ruhr city is a really productive one (+1 Production to Mines/Quarry, plus a +20% modifier for Production), and you should be at least at 50 Production one finish. It means you can produce anything and catch up everywhere else.

    But the fun of the civilization is being able to unlock Technologies that you should not have access. If they change the ability to be less strong, I hope we will still be able to unlock Technologies out of reach. For example, something like this:
    Here, you can still bypass some Technologies, but you can't ignore Science anymore: you have to build some Campuses. At least: I know where to put some Science, and I don't feel to waste it. Of course, it is just a random idea. I will be very sad to not have that weird sensation to "exploit" the game with Babylon anymore.

    I hope they fix an issue with Babylon. Let's say your 3 Archers get you Machinery: you can research Printing. If you select Printing when you have to select a Tech with the down-right icon, then you are researching it directly. But if you go to view the Tech tree and select Printing there, then all the prerequisite not done will be researched first.
     
  17. Jimdigriz

    Jimdigriz Prince

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    +1. I also hope they introduce a couple more land melee units - in between musketeers and infantry. It just seems a bit short in there somehow compared to previous Civ's.
     
  18. greenOak

    greenOak Warlord

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    I think anti-cavalry is in more need of a buff than recon. At least the scout is a good unit. Anti-cavalry is rubbish from spearmen through to modern AT. They can't even beat cavalry one on one.
     
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  19. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Here are my thoughts (I know you have all been waiting for my singularly glorious opinion):

    General
    - Scout class reworked to not be bad at their job after horses are discovered, and Skirmisher and Spec. Ops. buffed to useful levels of power.
    - Anti-cav line buffed and made vulnerable to Siege.
    - Siege made easier to use, and Trebuchet added between Catapult and Bombard.
    - Game pace slowed down so Era actually means something.
    - Golden Age dedications balanced so that you do not end up spamming Monumentality.

    Civs

    Canada
    - I would rework them, as they are a walking meme. But if not, the Tourism converted to favour needs to massively change. It should be a running total, and it should give 1 favour per 50 tourism generated EVER.
    - Laurier's ability needs to buff tundra more, because it still sucks.

    Cree
    - Okihtcitaw given +1 sight and +5 versus barbarians, instead of a free promotion.
    - Poundmaker's trade ability scales with era.

    Dutch
    - Polder slightly buffed to keep up with the yield creep.
    - Wilhelmina's ability improved and made to scale with era.

    Egypt
    - Flood Plains are now treated like Forests for appeal. Some adjacency bonuses for floodplains would also be nice.
    - Cleopatra's ability now scales with era.

    England
    - Rework or split in two like Teddy. Eleanor would lead the exploration/cultural one.
    - Eleanor needs to be exempt from the -5 diplomatic favour for occupying an enemy capital, if she takes it by loyalty. This KILLED her game. An additional source of GPP or increased ranged on her ability would also help her actually use it before the mid-game.

    France
    - Base France either needs a rework or serious buffs. They are nothing without their leader.
    - Catherine's spies can pick their promotion from the start. She needs something since spying on allies was removed.
    - Eleanor needs to be exempt from the -5 diplomatic favour for occupying an enemy capital, if she takes it by loyalty. This KILLED her game. An additional source of GPP or increased ranged on her ability would also help her actually use it before the mid-game.

    Georgia
    - Walls can be built even after Steel is researched.
    - Khevsur can be upgraded to.
    - Tamar: envoys give GPP.

    India
    - Religious pressure is bad. If they made it better, then the trade route bonus would be passable.
    - Gandhi faith bonus scales better with era.

    Khmer
    - Rework both civ and leader. They occupy their own Khmer tier, right at the bottom.

    Maori
    - When starting in water, have more of the map revealed (you came from somewhere, and this will also stop you from swimming off into the Pacific).

    Mapuche
    - Rework. They are a contrary mess.

    Maya
    - I would like them to scale to map size, but that might be too confusing. The other option would be to boost their amenities, increase the capital bonus radius to 7 (this means every city can have unique tiles), and not count ocean in the calculation. Starting next to the coast should not be so brutal. Also have their cities start with +1 housing.

    Persia
    - Trade bonus scales with era, and works with city-states as well.

    Poland
    - Needs a way to get a religion easier.

    Russia
    - Lavra needs a nerf.
    - Peter's ability needs a buff.

    Spain
    - A mess. I would rework.

    Sweden
    - Nobel Prize made baseline for the World Congress, and Sweden given something new.


    ...Ok, I am tired now. Will post more later.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  20. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    Unlocking Mysticism lets you use the Revelations policy card when you still have Chiefdom since your military policy slot is converted over to a wildcard slot, what more do they need?
     
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