Rebellions

[Swarbs]

Couldn't find this in any other thread - does anyone have a detailed guide for what causes the rebellion events (when cities try to declare independence) and what influences the % chances. I've had problems with this in a couple of games so far.

Firstly as Venice I got a bit overeager and conquered Milan, Naples, Constantinople, Mistra, Athens and Thessalonica. Was still just about stable (+5/6 most turns). Then as soon as I tried to settle the city near the Africa AA I immediately started having rebellion events - the new city rebelled pretty much every turn and then all of Greece rebelled. Even when I recaptured the African city it rebelled all the time, making it damn near impossible to get the AA - every time it rebelled I lost all the colonial hammers so that was a complete game breaker.

Then as France I decided to be a bit more careful with my stability and expansion. I stayed very solid (above 15) for pretty much the entire game, Manor Houses, Courthouses and Castles in every city, limited expansion and only Barcelona and a couple of German cities outside my core. But as soon as the crusade happened (around 1060AD), I capture Jerusalem and Tyre and it all started going wrong. Yet again, pretty much every four or five turns one of Barcelona or Jerusalem tries to declare independence. It's like my stability and number of troops just doesn't matter - no matter how many units are in the cities, what my stability is and how much money I have I have to choose the bottom option ("do all of this") just to have a 55% chance of stopping the rebellion. And it never works - the city always goes into rebellion with a stack of barb units outside it no matter what. I understand the importance of the rebellions for punishing people if they expand too much and become unstable, but I am completely stable in the French game so it's like the stability mechanism, which I always thought was supposed to be important in this game, is just ignored.

Is there any way to prevent this from happening, or at least reduce the annoying regularity it happens at? I've tried everything - filling the cities with troops, building up a massive treasury, running a golden age to get stability over 30, but nothing seems to work. It honestly gives the impression that the game as a whole is broken when there is no way to avoid stuff like that. Any advice on the mechanics that cause these constant rebellions would be much appreciated

 

[AbsintheRed]

There are 2 kinds of rebellions here
One is the normal rebellion, what you experienced in your Venice game for Greece
That's based on the your civ's stability, low stability will cause that in your empire. Stability is still the most important thing in RFC/RFCE

There is the other rebellion though, which can only occur in some specific territories (on specific, semi-historical dates)
Some kind of representation of the minor nations there (which are important enough to represent them - most were added as full civs in RFCE++)
A couple examples are Aragon (Barcelona), Serbia (Belgrad), Scotland, NW African coast, Jerusalem and Damascus, etc..
These territories can revolt even for stable empires, even with 15+ stability
However, it's not sure you cannot stop them
You can choose what do when the popup comes up about this
Stability in your empire, number of troops in the city, and the gold you can offer for them as bribe all influence the overall chance of the rebellion

 

[ezzlar]

Gift away the troublesome cities. They are never worth keeping. In NA its the Oran province.

Some civs are immune to some province rebellions.

 

[Swarbs]

There is the other rebellion though, which can only occur in some specific territories (on specific, semi-historical dates)

Doesn't seem to be specific dates - Jerusalem is just going nuts all the time, it's not even 1100AD in my French game IIRC. It wouldn't be so bad if it was a specific historical event, then it would actually have some impact. Right now it just feels like cleaning up the same mess again and again and again.

Gift away the troublesome cities. They are never worth keeping. In NA its the Oran province.

Some civs are immune to some province rebellions.

I would happily gift them, but I need to have Jerusalem for France and the N. African city for Venice. I can understand the game trying to make it a challenge, but right now it just feels like a pointless slog - another fifty turns of the same thing happening all the time purely to get a UHV.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Possible revolt dates (turn numbers) for Jerusalem: [xml.i1099AD+8,xml.i1099AD+16,xml.i1099AD+25,xml.i1099AD+33,xml.i1099AD+40,xml.i1099AD+47,xml.i1099AD+55,xml.i1099AD+65]
Not exact dates, but they can only occur a couple turns around those
As I said, big army in the city, great stability, and gold to bribe the rebel leaders increase your odds (if you choose that options) for keeping the city

 

[Spirictum]

Jerusalem and Damascus for example don't rebel against the Arabs.
Barcelona, Serbia, Oran and Tetouan on the other hand I've never seen someone that could avoid their rebellions.

The number of troops you have in each city in the Province gives you more %. Actually is the best way to avoid it. But avoiding it means that strong Barbs will appear (normally 2 attackers).

Except for Barcelona, all the other cities that rebel can be treated as trash. My two last examples with this are Arabia and Austria.

With Arabia you need Oran at 1291 AD. Some turns before this the Ziyanids rebel against you. Of course you could have some 15 units there to have 70%+ chances of keeping it, but if you fail the Indy will appear with those same 15 units (that will probably be HAs or Ghazis for the arab). But, you could leave the city empty as well. Surely you'll lose it, but is it so bad to lose Oran? Yes it is, but with a single unit you may take it back: without units on the rebelling province the rebel starts with 0 units.

The same I applied to Austria with Serbia. After I conquered it from the Ottomans, I left the two cities empty. Luckly it didn't revolt any time (maybe it was already after the rebelling dates).

So I treated them as garbage cities, only making some buildings, and then letting the rebel appear without units just to be conquered by a single unit

 

[AbsintheRed]

Jerusalem and Damascus for example don't rebel against the Arabs.
Barcelona, Serbia, Oran and Tetouan on the other hand I've never seen someone that could avoid their rebellions.

The number of troops you have in each city in the Province gives you more %. Actually is the best way to avoid it. But avoiding it means that strong Barbs will appear (normally 2 attackers).

Except for Barcelona, all the other cities that rebel can be treated as trash. My two last examples with this are Arabia and Austria.

With Arabia you need Oran at 1291 AD. Some turns before this the Ziyanids rebel against you. Of course you could have some 15 units there to have 70%+ chances of keeping it, but if you fail the Indy will appear with those same 15 units (that will probably be HAs or Ghazis for the arab). But, you could leave the city empty as well. Surely you'll lose it, but is it so bad to lose Oran? Yes it is, but with a single unit you may take it back: without units on the rebelling province the rebel starts with 0 units.

The same I applied to Austria with Serbia. After I conquered it from the Ottomans, I left the two cities empty. Luckly it didn't revolt any time (maybe it was already after the rebelling dates).

So I treated them as garbage cities, only making some buildings, and then letting the rebel appear without units just to be conquered by a single unit

Sounds like I have to revise some of these mechanics too

 

[Swarbs]

Sounds like I have to revise some of these mechanics too

Bit late replying, but imo the mechanics aren't all that bad, there just needs to be some threshold or something you can do to avoid the rebellions or reduce their frequency. This is particularly the case of Oran as Venice - it's about the only AA resource you can acquire without going nuts and invading half of Europe so there needs to be some way to keep that city out of revolt long enough to build the colonial project. Or some way for Venice to acquire AA through a different route.

With the general rebellions, I would rather they happened less frequently but more severely or with a different approach. Jerusalem in particular - after the crusades the city was emptied of Muslims and Jews and effectively repopulated with Europeans so the potential for revolt was relatively low. I think a more effective mechanic would be to spawn large Seljuk barb armies and have them go straight for the city. That way you have to keep it defended rather than just using Spirictum's exploit.

 

[Spirictum]

Yeah I agree with Swarbs, the mechanic needs only some improvements, but I must confess I liked the sound of Spirictum's exploit

It's a shame my exploit shouldn't exist

 

[2phunkey4u]

... some way for Venice to acquire AA through a different route.

Vassalizing Portugal generally seems to be a legitimate option.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

(1) You can use Rebellions to farm infinite Stability with Militarism + Krak de Chevaliers. It's not so difficult to figure out - I've posted the idea several times before, such as here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11873390&postcount=291

But only Spirictum was kind enough to take notice of it then, for some reason.

(2) On the contrary, if you wish to play legitimately, it's impossible to avoid no matter what you do.

As England, I tried to prevent Edinburgh (only city in Scotland) from rebelling. I had 30+ Stability. I parked half of my land army (some 30 units) in the city. I choose "Do everything we can to keep them (79% chance of success)." Still, the city rebelled, taking half of my army with it.

Yeah, very realistic and fun mechanism right there. Good job. Much prefer this to RFCE++'s representation of these minor civs. In fact I think we should for example change Burgundy and Lithuania into minor civs too. It will make playing France or Poland that much more enjoyable, wouldn't it. I do hope to see more Minor Civs in the future. Let's make half the Provinces on the map (chosen randomly in every game) rebel once every five turns or so (frequency also randomized). It will be so much fun for everyone.

And Spirictum, it must be such a great honor to have this wonderful feature of the game named after you. You have my congratulations.

 

[merijn_v1]

I also don't like the rebellions. But it seems 3Miro (and Absinthered too?) thought is should be in the mod.

There is a way to get "avoid" of the rebilions.
Save a game 3 or more turns before the rebelion. As the first 3 turns are somewhat determined, it has no use to load a game within those turns. The result will be the same. But if you load a save before that, the result will change. But you have to play those 3/4 turns again. (And if you are unlucky, you have to play them several times)

 

[ezzlar]

Make failed rebellions spawn a large army instead outside the city. With lower risk of succeding of repressing the rebellion.

 

[Spirictum]

But only Spirictum was kind enough to take notice of it then, for some reason.

Yeah, I remember your post about this, but actually "my exploit" wasn't based on yours. I really found it funny to have my name on something I wasn't even expecting to get any attention: Actually I didn't even realise about what you said.

iOnlySignIn's exploit is much better then mine. Mine was only to avoid those unnecessary situations when you must have a huge stack on a province you need to avoid the rebellion, but with almost 30% chances of having a disastrous outcome. You leave the city empty, let it rebel (so funny to see an option with -14% chances of not rebelling ) and then conquer it with your weakest unit just because you need that province, or you just want it but don't give a damn to it. Done, you avoided the situation and used that stack to conquer something else.

Yours evolves from this to break the stability mechanic (I never thought about this) using the Krak. As in most of my games I don't build it (because someone has already built it, or because I'm not catholic), and one of my recent byzantine game made me believe the Krak was bugged (I wasn't aware of how high my stability penalty for conquering cities was at the time, now I know I was mistaken), I think that's why I never considered a thought on it, only felt bad with it on this byz game.

Now this is a real exploit, to get infinite stability by using the Krak and the rebellions. This is something that really needs to be revised, because now I'm eager to see what a France (Stability Penalty Decreased UP) with the Krak (Stability Boost Wonder) can do in RFCE 1.1, because without this in my French 1.0 game I streched from Portugal to Poland (with Italy, Denmark and even the Levant).

So I never took notice of your exploit, because I never wasted a thought on the Krak (shame on me, now I've finally understood). I think the real exploit should be iOnlySignIn's exploit, because it's surely a real exploit, not a way of avoiding the frustrating game mechanic, and I hope absinthe corrects this, because as with mine it shouldn't be available

@merijn
Actually if you load the autosave in the turn of the rebellion it just doesn't happen. I think I never told this here in the forum (nor am I aware if someone else did it), but I discovered this long ago, and of course I didn't use it (too easy this way). The same applies to flipping: load in the turn of the flipping and it just doesn't happen.

 

[AbsintheRed]

(1) You can use Rebellions to farm infinite Stability with Militarism + Krak de Chevaliers. It's not so difficult to figure out - I've posted the idea several times before, such as here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11873390&postcount=291

But only Spirictum was kind enough to take notice of it then, for some reason.

That's not true
Neither the not noticed part, nor the infinite stability trick - revolts only occur a couple times, you can get maximum 4-5 stability this way

(2) On the contrary, if you wish to play legitimately, it's impossible to avoid no matter what you do.

As England, I tried to prevent Edinburgh (only city in Scotland) from rebelling. I had 30+ Stability. I parked half of my land army (some 30 units) in the city. I choose "Do everything we can to keep them (79% chance of success)." Still, the city rebelled, taking half of my army with it.

It's very hard to avoid them, true
Also, it can be quite annoying in a couple cases, I agree with that that too

Yeah, very realistic and fun mechanism right there. Good job. Much prefer this to RFCE++'s representation of these minor civs. In fact I think we should for example change Burgundy and Lithuania into minor civs too. It will make playing France or Poland that much more enjoyable, wouldn't it. I do hope to see more Minor Civs in the future. Let's make half the Provinces on the map (chosen randomly in every game) rebel once every five turns or so (frequency also randomized). It will be so much fun for everyone.

And Spirictum, it must be such a great honor to have this wonderful feature of the game named after you. You have my congratulations.

No need for sarcasm

I also don't like the rebellions. But it seems 3Miro (and Absinthered too?) thought is should be in the mod.

No, I never liked the mechanics - at least not in the way they are now
It was entirely 3Miro's design... has some good potential, but far from perfect in this form IMO

I was not kidding when I said that I need to revise these mechanics too
Didn't mean that I want to start it from scratch or get rid of it entirely. But there is much room to improve, and not just fixing the exploits

 

[AbsintheRed]

@merijn
Actually if you load the autosave in the turn of the rebellion it just doesn't happen. I think I never told this here in the forum (nor am I aware if someone else did it), but I discovered this long ago, and of course I didn't use it (too easy this way). The same applies to flipping: load in the turn of the flipping and it just doesn't happen.

This is a known bug (or rather exploit), coming from vanilla RFC
AFAIK none of the RFC mods found a way to solve it

 

[iOnlySignIn]

That's not true
Neither the not noticed part, nor the infinite stability trick - revolts only occur a couple times, you can get maximum 4-5 stability this way

While I appreciate your taking notice of my tantrum (I threw it to get your attention), you can get maximum ~15 Stability this way at least, by capturing Damascus and a city in Arabia (Aqaba), because those cities rebel just like Jerusalem.

In terms of mechanism this exploit is effectively the same as repeatedly gifting a city away just to take it back. The difference is, I can consciously avoid the gift city exploit by playing honestly and realistically. I cannot avoid the Rebel exploit in the same way, because playing honestly and realistically means I lose.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

At the very least, Rebellions should not flip garrison units. It's the pinnacle of absurdity for a group of Templar Knights and Teutonic Knights to start a Muslim revolt (Or do I have another history lesson waiting for me).

The garrison units can be expelled from the city's BFC and/or take a moderate amount (25%) of Health Damage. Whereas Barb/Indie stacks of various sizes spawn depending on the number garrison troops. With an upper limit of course. If I fortify 30 English Longbowmen in Edinburg it should not induce the spawn of say, 40 Highlanders. 20 is enough.

 

[AbsintheRed]

While I appreciate your taking notice of my tantrum (I threw it to get your attention), you can get maximum ~15 Stability this way at least, by capturing Damascus and a city in Arabia (Aqaba), because those cities rebel just like Jerusalem.

Yep, I meant it per city

In terms of mechanism this exploit is effectively the same as repeatedly gifting a city away just to take it back. The difference is, I can consciously avoid the gift city exploit by playing honestly and realistically. I cannot avoid the Rebel exploit in the same way, because playing honestly and realistically means I lose.

True

At the very least, Rebellions should not flip garrison units. It's the pinnacle of absurdity for a group of Templar Knights and Teutonic Knights to start a Muslim revolt (Or do I have another history lesson waiting for me).

As I said, I never liked it either
A bug in 3Miro's code, or an oversight
The exploit above will also cease to exist if this is changed

The garrison units can be expelled from the city's BFC and/or take a moderate amount (25%) of Health Damage. Whereas Barb/Indie stacks of various sizes spawn depending on the number garrison troops. With an upper limit of course. If I fortify 30 English Longbowmen in Edinburg it should not induce the spawn of say, 40 Highlanders. 20 is enough.

Will see about the details
Not sure when will I have time to update it though
It's final test week here, before the upcoming exam period

 

[rfcfanatic]

When I played as France, I experienced exactly the same problem. I overcame this by keeping a minimum garrison in every city conquered in the Middle East and a sizable stack of knights inside Byzantine borders ready to strike.

In the early 14th century I converted the cities into catholicism and used inquisitors to purge the cities from islam (except the holy city of Damas). I don't know if it affected anything, but after that I didn't experience any revolts until I won the historical victory in 1580 AD.