Referendum on Scottish Independence

[Commodore]

I suppose so. But it seems a very strange sort of lashing out.

A large proportion of Scots want to leave the Union, so we're entitled to burn effigies of them? It's hardly calculated to change their minds, is it?

Well lashing out usually isn't founded in any kind of logic and doesn't really serve any particular objective beyond creating a false sense of self-satisfaction for the one lashing out.

In any case, I wasn't trying to justify the burning of effigies; I was just trying to offer an alternate explanation to the "English are prejudiced against Scots" motive. Of course, I am far from being an expert on English-Scottish relations so I am willing to accept the fact that I may be completely off base in my assessment.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think there's a difference between being "pro-Scots" and "pro-independence". I'm very fond of Scotland, having been there many times, but that doesn't mean I want to see the end of the Union. This effigy, whilst not so bad in its own right, comes with certainly ill-advised references to the referendum, which I think is what makes it far more political than it would otherwise be.

So the firework societies burn six effigies every year. The PM, the US president and the Pope are all but certainties, and the leader of the opposition frequent. With offensive guy's.

So Salmon is being treated like the big boys.

It's not the effigy of Salmond I'm talking about. That reads as triumphalist and a little obnoxious, yeah, but it's really just people being people.

It's the fact that the character of Salmond is depicted alongside a number of distinguishing national/ethnic symbols: tartan, Nessie and the Tam o' Shanta. The fact that Salmond is Scottish becomes itself a point of derision. And, as Borachio says, that is unlikely to convince many Scots of the sincerity of English claims of affection.

 

[Quackers]

In any case, I wasn't trying to justify the burning of effigies; I was just trying to offer an alternate explanation to the "English are prejudiced against Scots" motive. Of course, I am far from being an expert on English-Scottish relations so I am willing to accept the fact that I may be completely off base in my assessment.

The harmful bits between England-Scotland mainly revolve around Scottish hatred of the English. I've heard plenty accounts of Englishman being harmed verbally or physically by living and breathing in Scotland.

 

[GinandTonic]

It's not the effigy of Salmond I'm talking about. That reads as triumphalist and a little obnoxious, yeah, but that's just people being people.

It's the fact that the character of Salmond is depicted alongside a number of distinguishing national/ethnic symbols: tartan, Nessie and the Tam o' Shanta. The fact that Salmond is Scottish becomes itself a point of derision. And, as Borachio says, that is unlikely to convince many Scots of the sincerity of English claims of affection.

That's how everyone's are every year. They are spitting image dolls basically. Spitting image could have suede over John-Paul. This is Salmon being treated exactly like all the other big boys. Except for Bush. He got it rough.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's the fact that the character of Salmond is depicted alongside a number of distinguishing national/ethnic symbols: tartan, Nessie and the Tam o' Shanta. The fact that Salmond is Scottish becomes itself a point of derision. And, as Borachio says, that is unlikely to convince many Scots of the sincerity of English claims of affection.

The Obama one from 2008 is pretty interesting on that level. Or no?

Edit: Good lord, I'm just realizing how much Nov. 5 celebrations look like Klan rallies that have dropped a lot of acid.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

It's not the effigy of Salmond I'm talking about. That reads as triumphalist and a little obnoxious, yeah, but it's really just people being people.

It's the fact that the character of Salmond is depicted alongside a number of distinguishing national/ethnic symbols: tartan, Nessie and the Tam o' Shanta. The fact that Salmond is Scottish becomes itself a point of derision. And, as Borachio says, that is unlikely to convince many Scots of the sincerity of English claims of affection.

Would you like to suggest some other accessories which (a) satirize Salmond and (b) are likely to occur to middle-aged men in southern England?

Yes, Salmond is being portrayed with symbols of Scottish identity. But he's best known as the leader of *Scottish Nationalism*. How else do you visually convey that concept?

If they were burning Sir Richard Branson, they'd have a plane or train, but not because of any antipathy to locomotion!

 

[Traitorfish]

That's how everyone's are every year. They are spitting image dolls basically. Spitting image could have suede over John-Paul. This is Salmon being treated exactly like all the other big boys. Except for Bush. He got it rough.

Again, it's not about Salmond. Repeat, not about Salmond. It's about the fact that the caricature introduces his nationality and ethnicity as points of derision. The fact that this was and apparently is considered appropriate for public celebration, that we're regarded as a punch-line, suggests that the English don't regard Scotland with the sort of brotherly love and respect of which we were assured.

The harmful bits between England-Scotland mainly revolve around Scottish hatred of the English. I've heard plenty accounts of Englishman being harmed verbally or physically by living and breathing in Scotland.

Case in point: "The Scots are barbarians, savages, brutish bigots to a man- but don't think we hold them in anything but the warmest regard!" It's an act which very few Scots still find convincing. Treat as brothers or treat us as contemptible bumpkins, but for god's sake, be honest with us.

Would you like to suggest some other accessories which (a) satirize Salmond and (b) are likely to occur to middle-aged men in southern England?

Yes, Salmond is being portrayed with symbols of Scottish identity. But he's best known as the leader of *Scottish Nationalism*. How else do you visually convey that concept?

Scottish nationalism and Scottish nationality aren't interchangeable. The fact that middle-aged men in Southern England don't know how to mock one without mocking the other is exactly the point I'm making.

 

[useless]

Scottish hatred of the english; what? You mistake our contempt for Southern English politics and the entitlement of Londoners as a hatred of English people as a whole. I'm willing to wager that Northerners and Scots probably have a lot in common, what with being screwed by Thatcher et al and the government's increasingly out of touch response to anyone north of London/Southern England.

I genuinely feel that Scots have realised that the curtain has dropped and it's more the overway round; the English view us as akin to parasites, incapable of any sort of further self-rule and that we should all shut up and be happy with what we've been "given".

 

[Flying Pig]

Again, it's not about Salmond. Repeat, not about Salmond. It's about the fact that the caricature introduces his nationality and ethnicity as points of derision. The fact that this was and apparently is considered appropriate for public celebration, that we're regarded as a punch-line, suggests that the English don't regard Scotland with the sort of brotherly love and respect of which we were assured.

Again unconvinced... if I were going to caricature David Cameron, I'd probably emphasise his 'quintessentially English' features, or at least those which are also associated with aristocracy. Similarly, if I were going to caricature a farmer, I'd give him a big straw hat and a piece of grass to chew on, but that doesn't necessarily mean I don't like or respect farmers.

 

[useless]

Real talk; I genuinely felt disturbed by some of the views expressed about Scotland from the English down south on all those news channels on the run-up to the referendum on independence. It's left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[GinandTonic]

Again, it's not about Salmond. Repeat, not about Salmond. It's about the fact that the caricature introduces his nationality and ethnicity as points of derision. The fact that this was and apparently is considered appropriate for public celebration, that we're regarded as a punch-line, suggests that the English don't regard Scotland with the sort of brotherly love and respect of which we were assured.

If anyone draped Salmond in the saltire he did. This is no more offensive a caricature than Spitting Image or Steve Bell.

The guys are caricatures. This is a less offensive caricature of Mr S than, well, almost all caricatures. Yes, a rabid nationalist is wearing his flag. A long standing caricature tradition. He has nessie, jp had spitting's image bling and shades, gw had a cowboy hat.

That's the whole point. This is no more anti-Scottish bigotry than gw was anti-American bigotry.

 

[Traitorfish]

Again unconvinced... if I were going to caricature David Cameron, I'd probably emphasise his 'quintessentially English' features, or at least those which are also associated with aristocracy.

What are "quintessentially English features", though? Is there any such thing? As you say, you could hint at his aristocracy, the fact that he comes from a socially, politically, economically and cultural dominant part of society, but at Englishness? I don't know if we have that vocabulary, or at any rate, not one that would read in the same way.

Similarly, if I were going to caricature a farmer, I'd give him a big straw hat and a piece of grass to chew on, but that doesn't necessarily mean I don't like or respect farmers.

If you proposed to burn him in effigy, it could very easily be construed that way.

If anyone draped Salmond in the saltire he did. This is no more offensive a caricature than Spitting Image or Steve Bell.

That's a worthwhile comparison, because I think Steve Bell actually handled this very well. He depicted Salmond draped in the saltire or dressed as Robert the Bruce, and in doing so poked fun at Salmond's self-presentation. This depiction does not: tartan trews, Nessie, the Tam o' Shanter, none of these having anything to do with Salmond's rhetorical style or the trappings of the Yes campaign. They're generic an apolitical symbols of Scottish-ness. Again, it's a conflation of Scottish nationalism with Scottish nationality, presented in a derogatory manner.

rabid nationalist

That's the whole point. This is no more anti-Scottish bigotry than gw was anti-American bigotry.

I didn't say "bigotry". Certainly if you exaggerate my case to the point of ridiculousness, it's easy to dismiss, but that's not really very productive.

 

[GinandTonic]

If you proposed to burn him in effigy, it could very easily be construed that way.

The guys are all caricatures. Are you objecting to the concept of burning caricatures? They will by definition be offensive stereotypes.

Are you against caricatures in general? Hogarth, Steadman, Bell?

 

[Oruc]

Scottish hatred of the english; what? You mistake our contempt for Southern English politics and the entitlement of Londoners as a hatred of English people as a whole. I'm willing to wager that Northerners and Scots probably have a lot in common, what with being screwed by Thatcher et al and the government's increasingly out of touch response to anyone north of London/Southern England.

Get lost. You lot have always hated us, I learned that pretty early on.

 

[useless]

Get lost. You lot have always hated us, I learned that pretty early on.

Rubbish. Plenty of english people up here where i live, heck i HAVE an english accent and im often mistaken for an english man. Maybe you should actually live in scotland before you spout such tawdry nonsense. The hate you describe is only felt by those extreme braveheart types, the average Scottish person couldn't give a crap if you're welsh, irish, english or any other nationality.

 

[Oruc]

Rubbish. Plenty of english people up here where i live, heck i HAVE an english accent and im often mistaken for an english man. Maybe you should actually live in scotland before you spout such tawdry nonsense. The hate you describe is only felt by those extreme braveheart types, the average Scottish person couldn't give a crap if you're welsh, irish, english or any other nationality.

Yeah no True Scotsman would hate the English!

 

[Traitorfish]

Can I just say, by way of general comment, that if Scottish people suggest that a particular caricature of a Scottish person doesn't do much to affirm the fraternal bonds between our two countries, and the response of English people is to say, "no, it's fine, you just don't understand satire", that isn't going to do much bond-affirming either.

The guys are all caricatures. Are you objecting to the concept of burning caricatures? They will by definition be offensive stereotypes.

If you can't imagine a caricature that doesn't involve derogatory references to the persons national or ethnic background then, I dunno, I really can't help you.

Rubbish. Plenty of english people up here where i live, heck i HAVE an english accent and im often mistaken for an english man. Maybe you should actually live in scotland before you spout such tawdry nonsense. The hate you describe is only felt by those extreme braveheart types, the average Scottish person couldn't give a crap if you're welsh, irish, english or any other nationality.

Likewise. You will find anti-English sentiment, that's certainly true, but it's ridiculous to suggest that it's a general condition. And, without meaning to apologise for such prejudices, you tend to find that most of that is a sort of reverse class-snobbery framed in national terms, directed specifically at people with a "posh", Southern accent; a sort of misguided anti-elitism, rather, than a generalised national bigotry. People like me, who speak with what I've had affectionately described as "grubby English" accent, tend to get a pass.

 

[useless]

Yeah no True Scotsman would hate the English!

So what, do you think of us all as English hating, junkie alcoholics? I'd love to know your clearly well thought out and unbiased, non-bigoted opinion on scottish people forums poster Oruc

 

[GinandTonic]

That's a worthwhile comparison, because I think Steve Bell actually handled this very well. He depicted Salmond draped in the saltire or dressed as Robert the Bruce, and in doing so poked fun at Salmond's self-presentation. This depiction does not: tartan trews, Nessie, the Tam o' Shanter, none of these having anything to do with Salmond's rhetorical style or the trappings of the Yes campaign. They're generic an apolitical symbols of Scottish-ness. Again, it's a conflation of Scottish nationalism with Scottish nationality, presented in a derogatory manner.

Ok we're cross editing a lot here but...

So you have no problem with a bunch of lib-dems burning caricatures, but you object to their being lazy caricatures?

Well that's the problem with the provinces, all the big talent gets sucked to London. So long as you realise the caricatures of Cameron, Miliband, Obama and Benedict will be equally lazy and offensive.

 

[Truronian]

There is no real vitriol in Scotland towards English people. There is anger some towards English politicians, but the idea of widespread anti-English racism is fanciful.