Referendum on Scottish Independence

[Oruc]

So what, do you think of us all as English hating, junkie alcoholics? I'd love to know your clearly well thought out and unbiased, non-bigoted opinion on scottish people forums poster Oruc

Ha! where did that come from? If those are the first things that comes to your mind when you think of Scottish people, I dunno, I really can't help you. You're going to have to deal with your own personal problems before you keep posting.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm afraid you probably have Ewan McGregor to thank for that one.

TF, so are you saying that national identity should be out of satirical bounds? How far does that apply to other identities?

 

[useless]

Ha! where did that come from? If those are the first things that comes to your mind when you think of Scottish people, I dunno, I really can't help you. You're going to have to deal with your own personal problems before you keep posting.

Come on drop the passive-aggressiveness it's beneath you Oruc.

 

[Oruc]

Come on drop the passive-aggressiveness it's beneath you Oruc.

Those were your words not mine, you painted that image not me.

 

[useless]

Those were your words not mine, you painted that image not me.

Beep Boop i am a robot i do not understand sarcasm or cultural references to films.

 

[Traitorfish]

TF, so are you saying that national identity should be out of satirical bounds? How far does that apply to other identities?

I'm saying "don't be a dick", or at "least don't be a dick and then expect people to believe you're their friend". That's something people really have to navigate for themselves.

I mean, let's be clear, I don't think this is a big deal. It's not a particularly offensive caricature, it's just a bit crass. I mostly brought it up as a reminder that a lot of people in England still do not get it, do not get why Scots feel marginalised or condescended too, do not understand why Scots increasingly struggle to reconcile Scottish and British identities, do not get why even perfectly sincere declarations of affection ring hollow to Scottish ears. And, honestly, I think this discussion has borne that out.

(Also, re: caricatures of Geroge W. Bush, I think it's actually worth saying that in retrospect a lot of British caricatures of Bush were pretty obnoxious expressions of anti-American prejudice. Just because Bush himself was a loathsome character doesn't really excuse that.)

 

[Oruc]

Beep Boop i am a robot i do not understand sarcasm or cultural references to films.

You live in Scotland and first image you could construct of a scotsman was some junkie from a film. If you were trying to make a joke, stop. You're only good at making strawman and being incredibly hyperbolic, stick to your act.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, there's an old Two Ronnies joke where they 'report' that a foul-mouthed drunk ran off a bus after being asked to pay the fare, so the police now suspect 20,000 Scotsmen, which probably does suggest that heavy drinking is a Scots stereotype, but I see your point, TF, in that burning symbols of Scotland itself was probably a really bad idea.

 

[GinandTonic]

There is no real vitriol in Scotland towards English people. There is anger some towards English politicians, but the idea of widespread anti-English racism is fanciful.

Not widespread but socially acceptable. At the fringe 2013 there was nasty stuff I saw. One set by a mixed race guy whose whole gig was about the rampant racism he had faced growing up in Scotland, then he switched to the most racist monolog I've ever heard (about anyone) about the English. TBH I think the last pint might just have been the one to break him, but he was actually foaming at the mouth. With no apparent sense of irony that 3/4 of his set was about the idiocy and futility of where he ended up.

 

[Quackers]

Obama is depicted in a top hat, similar to the one worn by Uncle Sam and has $$ signs everywhere.

Is that the same "condescension and marginalisation" but of Americans?

Traitorfish usually your analysis is quite good but your problem here is that you're reading far too much into it. It's like English literature. You pick out a passage and use a few phrases to try and work out some ulterior meaning in the quote. Well you haven't just done that you've gone further and further down a rabbit hole where the only outcome is: "see, SEE! Those Englishman! They really dislike us at heart! All this "better together" stuff was nonsense!".

I don't think the guy who made the giant Salmond thought to himself, "yes i'll add tartan to Mr Salmond in order to advocate my latent, underhanded anti-Scottish attitude". He probably thought: "how can i make this more scottish?", just like he did with Obama and several other political figures. Trust me TF, you're overthinking this.

EDIT: Actually TF, i think I'll join you in your conspiratorial thinking. You're an Englishman but you've attempted to become a Scotsman. You voted Yes and you live in a Scottish provincial city. You are the perfect example of a "no more a fanatic then a convert". To prove your allegiance to the Scottish nation you try and reveal the hidden bigotry in the hearts of every Englishman...

 

[Arakhor]

All my above said, I do think I'd struggle to live in Scotland, given my accent is still noticeably south-eastern enough to have some people in Gloucestershire (the county wherein I've lived for over 25 years) ask if I'm 'posh' or have had a grammar school education. (I'm not and I really haven't.)

 

[Truronian]

All my above said, I do think I'd struggle to live in Scotland, given my accent is still noticeably south-eastern enough to have some people in Gloucestershire (the county wherein I've lived for over 25 years) ask if I'm 'posh' or have had a grammar school education. (I'm not and I really haven't.)

My mother lives in Scotland with her family and has never had any issues. I quite well spoken and have never had any problems when I'm up there; not even in Glasgow.

 

[Traitorfish]

I know a few people from Uni with "posh" accents and they've been quiet happy. Some of them stuck around after graduating. It's really not that big an obstacle.

Actually TF, i think I'll join you in your conspiratorial thinking. You're an Englishman but you've attempted to become a Scotsman. You voted Yes and you live in a Scottish provincial city. You are the perfect example of a "no more a fanatic then a convert". To prove your allegiance to the Scottish nation you try and reveal the hidden bigotry in the hearts of every Englishman...

Heh, honestly, I know a couple of people who are a bit like this. It can happen! People can be quiet insecure in their identities. Me, I'm more chameleon-like, switching back and forth as rhetorical convenience demands. I'm Scottish, but now I'm English, woah, now I'm Irish, haha, now I'm a cosmopolitan internationalist, you'll never catch me!

The only thing I can't be is Welsh, which is a shame, because I'd quite like to be Welsh.

Not widespread but socially acceptable. At the fringe 2013 there was nasty stuff I saw. One set by a mixed race guy whose whole gig was about the rampant racism he had faced growing up in Scotland, then he switched to the most racist monolog I've ever heard (about anyone) about the English. TBH I think the last pint might just have been the one to break him, but he was actually foaming at the mouth. With no apparent sense of irony that 3/4 of his set was about the idiocy and futility of where he ended up.

Do you think maybe that was part of the joke? I mean, don't let the gift shops fool you, Edinburgh is pretty heavily Anglicised. Proportionally higher English population than Glasgow, proportionally higher number of visitors from England, especially during the Festival, generally quite cosmopolitanism; its not exactly Auchtermuchty, y'know? So a show at the Edinburgh Fringe is really not the obvious place to look for evidence of socially-acceptable anti-English bigotry, and I've got wonder if anyone working in that context could be as dead to the irony as you describe. I'm not passing judgement on the anecdote, I don't know all the details, but it feels very counter-intuitive.

 

[GinandTonic]

The only thing I can't be is Welsh, which is a shame, because I'd quite like to be Welsh.

Perhaps you and Miese should have a hug? Apparently he liked being Welsh.

Edit - That was in a nice voice not a sarky bastard voice.

 

[Traitorfish]

The best thing about being Welsh, is you're also automatically an honorary Breton, so it's like a two for the price of one deal. Don't get that in Scotland, because even thought we've got the whole Gaelic thing in common with Ireland, the history there is... a bit ugly.

(And that's one eyebrow I'll certainly raise to Scottish nationalism, when they start making all these analogies between "English" imperialism in Ireland and English "imperialism" in Scotland. It's like: no, guys. Stop it. Stop talking. You're making it worse.)

 

[Oruc]

Obama is depicted in a top hat, similar to the one worn by Uncle Sam and has $$ signs everywhere.

Is that the same "condescension and marginalisation" but of Americans?

Traitorfish usually your analysis is quite good but your problem here is that you're reading far too much into it. It's like English literature. You pick out a passage and use a few phrases to try and work out some ulterior meaning in the quote. Well you haven't just done that you've gone further and further down a rabbit hole where the only outcome is: "see, SEE! Those Englishman! They really dislike us at heart! All this "better together" stuff was nonsense!".

I don't think the guy who made the giant Salmond thought to himself, "yes i'll add tartan to Mr Salmond in order to advocate my latent, underhanded anti-Scottish attitude". He probably thought: "how can i make this more scottish?", just like he did with Obama and several other political figures. Trust me TF, you're overthinking this.

EDIT: Actually TF, i think I'll join you in your conspiratorial thinking. You're an Englishman but you've attempted to become a Scotsman. You voted Yes and you live in a Scottish provincial city. You are the perfect example of a "no more a fanatic then a convert". To prove your allegiance to the Scottish nation you try and reveal the hidden bigotry in the hearts of every Englishman...

He's just being paranoid, nothing wrong that though, It's his right to be paranoid!

 

[GinandTonic]

.Do you think maybe that was part of the joke? I mean, don't let the gift shops fool you, Edinburgh is pretty heavily Anglicised. Proportionally higher English population than Glasgow, proportionally higher number of visitors from England, especially during the Festival, generally quite cosmopolitanism; its not exactly Auchtermuchty, y'know? So a show at the Edinburgh Fringe is really not the obvious place to look for evidence of socially-acceptable anti-English bigotry, and I've got wonder if anyone working in that context could be as dead to the irony as you describe. I'm not passing judgement on the anecdote, I don't know all the details, but it feels very counter-intuitive.

Oh yeah, I think being abusive to the English to their face was the whole point, but that's the point of a lot of bigoted humour. Not really sure how it was supposed to be funny. I put two quid in the pot though. One for the first half and the second for his balls.

 

[bhsup]

He's just being paranoid, nothing wrong that though, It's his right to be paranoid!

 

[Cutlass]

Huh. Now that I think about it "hey pig*fornicator*" is actually in standard usage as a greeting between myself and several of my most longstanding friends. My wife finds these guys abrasive and it bothers her. I don't think she quite gets it when I tell her that if the day comes that they become unfailingly polite to her it means they don't like her anymore.

It sounds like the social conventions of your acquaintances were taken from a David Weber fantasy novel.

 

[Farm Boy]

*woosh* Right over my head.