This is neither a bug nor a graphic problem. All works well! Before you found the city the plot shows the generally possible production and after you have founded the city it shows the CURRENTLY possible production...you need to put in the city sheep, cattle or horses and then you will see the possible production in the city!
[Religion and Revolution]: Feedback and Questions
- Thread starter raystuttgart
- Start date
stefmaster
Chieftain
This explanation is reasonable! 
Reasonable, maybe. Logical, not so much.
Say you have a city with an empty grassland lot. That lot shows 4 food both on the map and on the city screen.
Now you put a farmer inside the city (+3 food bonus). The graphics don't change.
But now you have a possible food production as you can out the farmer on that lot.
After you did that you see 7 food on the city screen but still 4 on the map.
The same goes for everything but livestock.
I wouldn't call it a bug but it certainly is a glitch.
On the other hand livestock production is unique in that livestock must be in the city first in order to breed more. So it would be just as confusing to always show the theoretically possible production.
It was always like that in TAC and, I believe, in Col vanilla.
But that doesn't change the fact that the behaviour of both maps in respect to livestock is illogical, confusing and prone to questioning. Over the years I have seen quite a few similar posts about it.
The only solution I see is to separate the two maps in that respect and show possible production without bonuses or preconditions on the map but including both on the city screen. But I guess that would be a lot of work for little gain.
Say you have a city with an empty grassland lot. That lot shows 4 food both on the map and on the city screen.
Now you put a farmer inside the city (+3 food bonus). The graphics don't change.
But now you have a possible food production as you can out the farmer on that lot.
After you did that you see 7 food on the city screen but still 4 on the map.
The same goes for everything but livestock.
I wouldn't call it a bug but it certainly is a glitch.
On the other hand livestock production is unique in that livestock must be in the city first in order to breed more. So it would be just as confusing to always show the theoretically possible production.
It was always like that in TAC and, I believe, in Col vanilla.
But that doesn't change the fact that the behaviour of both maps in respect to livestock is illogical, confusing and prone to questioning. Over the years I have seen quite a few similar posts about it.
The only solution I see is to separate the two maps in that respect and show possible production without bonuses or preconditions on the map but including both on the city screen. But I guess that would be a lot of work for little gain.
Sorry, but it is absolutely logical. it isn't a bug and it is not a glitch. All works fine as it shall work. You just need to understand the logic behind that!
On the map the general possible production is shown. As soon as you found a city you have completely changed conditions! In the city the general production and any potential production is shown as well. In case you use a farmer he will - of course - produce additional food which would not be possible on the map without the city (on the map one could say the possible basic production is shown). Why should it bee confusing to show the general possible production? This is one of the basic logics of the game. The player can see what GENERAL conditions he will get in case he founds a city at this position.
And, again, sorry, but livestock is neither illogical, nor confusing.
1. See on the map the general possible conditions for livestock production
2. Found a city and bring the livestock you want into the city
3. Use a colonist or specialist for production
4. Produce and be happy.
Very easy, very simple.
On the map the general possible production is shown. As soon as you found a city you have completely changed conditions! In the city the general production and any potential production is shown as well. In case you use a farmer he will - of course - produce additional food which would not be possible on the map without the city (on the map one could say the possible basic production is shown). Why should it bee confusing to show the general possible production? This is one of the basic logics of the game. The player can see what GENERAL conditions he will get in case he founds a city at this position.
And, again, sorry, but livestock is neither illogical, nor confusing.
1. See on the map the general possible conditions for livestock production
2. Found a city and bring the livestock you want into the city
3. Use a colonist or specialist for production
4. Produce and be happy.
Very easy, very simple.
Dan4GS
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 66
Just discovered this recently...really impressed by all the work and think the team did an awesome job! This is what Colonization should have been from the start...definitely got me into "1 more turn..."
Thank you all!
Edit: Also, one question: is there a way to jump directly into R&R instead of opening vanilla, loading the mod, then waiting for the game to close/re-open as R&R?
Thank you all!
Edit: Also, one question: is there a way to jump directly into R&R instead of opening vanilla, loading the mod, then waiting for the game to close/re-open as R&R?
Last edited:
Dan4GS
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 66
Thanks!
Apparently I haven't made myself clear, so I'll try again.
In order to produce something you must meet certain conditions:
1. an adjacent city
2. cultural ruling over at least one tile within the city radius
3. a unit in that city that can produce (i.e. not a settler militia)
4. in case of livestock a store of livestock in that city
Let's go through the cases:
a) no city
i. the map shows possible production (i.e. not including expert or building bonuses but including bonus resources and improvements)
b) adjacent city with settler on a non-livestock tile (e.g. fisherman) , no livestock in store
i. the map shows possible production with the exception of livestock production
ii. the city screen shows possible production with the exception of livestock production
c) adjacent city with settler on a livestock tile, no livestock in store
i. the map shows possible production with the exception of livestock production
ii. the city screen shows the actual production (which can't be livestock) including all bonuses
d) adjacent city with settler on a non-livestock tile, livestock in store
i. the map shows possible production including possible livestock production (dependent on # of livestock in city)
ii. the city screen shows the actual production including all bonuses
e) adjacent city with settler on a livestock tile, livestock in store
i. the map shows possible production including possible livestock production (dependent on # of livestock in city)
ii. the city screen shows the actual production including all bonuses
In almost all cases the map shows the possible production as defined under a)i. and the city screen shows the possible production for empty tiles and the actual production for occupied tiles.
The only exception are cases b) and c)i.
Now you can argue that condition 4 is not met in these cases which is certainly correct.
I also think that the city screen works logically as the production shown always includes all bonuses, in case of a unit present on the tile also that units bonuses.
But the map ignores both abilities of units already working and building bonuses in all cases. So the map takes into account only conditions met independently of the city like bonus resources and improvements.
But it usually ignores any special conditions that can only be satisfied through the city and the units present therein. The only exception to this logic is the # of livestock in store of the city.
That's why I call the behavior of the map illogical in these cases.
There is another glitch concerning livestock.
Say you have a city with a rancher producing cattle. Citizen automation is turned off.
Now you enter the city with a Wagon Train and load all cattle on the WT. The rancher is suddenly automized and put to produce something else.
Now you realize your mistake and put the cattle back in store. The rancher stays automized and might return to ranching or not depending on the logic of Citizen Automation.
If you do the same with any other good, e.g. wood, the carpenters stay where they are and just stop producing. If you restock they immediately produce again.
Again, I would call the behavior of the ranchers illogical as it differs from any other profession for no apparent reason. This unique behavior also is a trap for the player as you might not notice that your ranchers have stopped producing just because you have mis-clicked while loading your WT.
As to the latter part of your post, I don't see where I have said anything about the production of cattle being illogical or glitchy. I wouldn't call it "very simple" as again it is different to other goods but it is certainly straightforward.
In order to produce something you must meet certain conditions:
1. an adjacent city
2. cultural ruling over at least one tile within the city radius
3. a unit in that city that can produce (i.e. not a settler militia)
4. in case of livestock a store of livestock in that city
Let's go through the cases:
a) no city
i. the map shows possible production (i.e. not including expert or building bonuses but including bonus resources and improvements)
b) adjacent city with settler on a non-livestock tile (e.g. fisherman) , no livestock in store
i. the map shows possible production with the exception of livestock production
ii. the city screen shows possible production with the exception of livestock production
c) adjacent city with settler on a livestock tile, no livestock in store
i. the map shows possible production with the exception of livestock production
ii. the city screen shows the actual production (which can't be livestock) including all bonuses
d) adjacent city with settler on a non-livestock tile, livestock in store
i. the map shows possible production including possible livestock production (dependent on # of livestock in city)
ii. the city screen shows the actual production including all bonuses
e) adjacent city with settler on a livestock tile, livestock in store
i. the map shows possible production including possible livestock production (dependent on # of livestock in city)
ii. the city screen shows the actual production including all bonuses
In almost all cases the map shows the possible production as defined under a)i. and the city screen shows the possible production for empty tiles and the actual production for occupied tiles.
The only exception are cases b) and c)i.
Now you can argue that condition 4 is not met in these cases which is certainly correct.
I also think that the city screen works logically as the production shown always includes all bonuses, in case of a unit present on the tile also that units bonuses.
But the map ignores both abilities of units already working and building bonuses in all cases. So the map takes into account only conditions met independently of the city like bonus resources and improvements.
But it usually ignores any special conditions that can only be satisfied through the city and the units present therein. The only exception to this logic is the # of livestock in store of the city.
That's why I call the behavior of the map illogical in these cases.
There is another glitch concerning livestock.
Say you have a city with a rancher producing cattle. Citizen automation is turned off.
Now you enter the city with a Wagon Train and load all cattle on the WT. The rancher is suddenly automized and put to produce something else.
Now you realize your mistake and put the cattle back in store. The rancher stays automized and might return to ranching or not depending on the logic of Citizen Automation.
If you do the same with any other good, e.g. wood, the carpenters stay where they are and just stop producing. If you restock they immediately produce again.
Again, I would call the behavior of the ranchers illogical as it differs from any other profession for no apparent reason. This unique behavior also is a trap for the player as you might not notice that your ranchers have stopped producing just because you have mis-clicked while loading your WT.
As to the latter part of your post, I don't see where I have said anything about the production of cattle being illogical or glitchy. I wouldn't call it "very simple" as again it is different to other goods but it is certainly straightforward.
There are two separate choices for the constitution that add to your bell production.
But I cannot figure out why I should do that?
AFAIK bells raise my level of independence support. But that's done with once I declared war on my king, isn't it?
They also make the king add to his army but that's done with, too, at that stage.
So can someone explain why I should maximize my bell production in the WoI?
But I cannot figure out why I should do that?
AFAIK bells raise my level of independence support. But that's done with once I declared war on my king, isn't it?
They also make the king add to his army but that's done with, too, at that stage.
So can someone explain why I should maximize my bell production in the WoI?
Sarin
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,287
Well..the rebel sentiment pretty much levels out way before WoI. Right now, I'm not sure if you need to keep up the production of LB to keep the the % from dropping.
It's a pity that Col4 abolished the original mechanics, dropping pretty much entire REF on you within first few turns, and you had to hold them off with inferior units until you produced set amount of LB to gain foreign support.
In Col4, even in RnR, REF comes in waves, and you can easily build enough force to take out every wave quickly, especially if you have few SoL or Man-o-war with a lot of experience, and foreign intervention comes quickly, without LB production.
It's a pity that Col4 abolished the original mechanics, dropping pretty much entire REF on you within first few turns, and you had to hold them off with inferior units until you produced set amount of LB to gain foreign support.
In Col4, even in RnR, REF comes in waves, and you can easily build enough force to take out every wave quickly, especially if you have few SoL or Man-o-war with a lot of experience, and foreign intervention comes quickly, without LB production.
That's my thinking, too.
Those constitutional choices seem like leftovers from the original Col, where you needed those bells to get help from the French or whoever. So the designers just implemented them into Col as well but never got around to implement the foreign help as in Col original. Same probably goes for the +2 strength for colonists. Totally useless in Col4 vanilla and even more so now that the strength levels of all the military units have changed (which was a good choice btw).
Proposal for the modders:
Change Right to Bear Arms from +2 strength for settlers to +4 strength
Change Separation from Church and State from Crosses->Bells to Crosses->Cannon (or Guns, Tools, Blades), reflecting the confiscating of church riches to help the war effort (or a production boost for the buildings producing that stuff)
Change Elections from +50% Bells to +50%(or 100%?) Education (faster veteran soldiers) to reflect the stronger solidarity with a democracy as opposed to a monarchy
Alternatively keep the latter two as they are and implement a significant "French" force arriving at a specific number of bells has been produced after the DoI. I am thinking of something like 20% of the king's original force at the beginning of the war including MoWs.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
I've been thinking about something. When your warehouse is full and you want to rush the next upgrade in order to enlarge it, you generally can't because tools necessary for the rush will get wasted the turn after. So instead of having the 20 required tools you paid for, there's only 19 or so remaining which is not enough for the new building to get built.
This can be a bit tedious to overcome. Maybe this could be avoided? Unless that's an intended feature in which case I apologize.
This can be a bit tedious to overcome. Maybe this could be avoided? Unless that's an intended feature in which case I apologize.
Dan4GS
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 66
Yeah, it'd be nice to have an option on what inventory gets sold or maybe just what inventory will not be touched, whichever is easier. Dunno how hard that would be to program into the game since I know nothing about modding...but it'd be a nice addition.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
I don't believe there is the modding staff for something like this at the moment.
The easiest turnaround would probably be to exclude tools from the calculation of the storage capacity, a bit as it is the case already for lumber, stone and food. I doubt though Schmiddie would like that idea.
If that helps, this may be the piece of code where this is determined (CvCityAI.cpp, line 1170):
Code:
if ((eLoopYield != YIELD_FOOD) && (eLoopYield != YIELD_LUMBER) && (eLoopYield != YIELD_STONE) && GC.getYieldInfo(eLoopYield).isCargo())
{
int iExcess = getYieldStored(eLoopYield) - iCityCapacity;
if (iExcess > 0)
{
iTotalExcess += iExcess;
}
iHighestPercentFull = std::max(iHighestPercentFull, 100 * getYieldStored(eLoopYield) / iCityCapacity);
}
Having lumber not counted really helped the AI out considerably. They should probably add ore to the list for the same reason But other than that, no more should be added. Just manage it better. 
Nothing like capturing a city and seeing thousands of lumber lying around.
Nothing like capturing a city and seeing thousands of lumber lying around.
devolution
Prince
Guys, ray apparently wanted it to work that way. It's supposed to represent general wastefulness and mismanagement of the colony, thus almost *all* yields are subject to be discarded. Arguably, there should be no exceptions.
The AI wouldn't be hurt by this anyway, since it has a cheat that allows it to sell all surplus yields just as if a customs house / warehouse expansion had been present.
One way to solve this, without changing this game mechanic, would be to have city "builds" complete before the overflow happens.
The lumber hoarding is a separate issue, I haven't taught the AI to sell the surplus in Africa yet since the AI is hard-coded to never export lumber (something I don't understand or agree with)
The AI wouldn't be hurt by this anyway, since it has a cheat that allows it to sell all surplus yields just as if a customs house / warehouse expansion had been present.
One way to solve this, without changing this game mechanic, would be to have city "builds" complete before the overflow happens.
The lumber hoarding is a separate issue, I haven't taught the AI to sell the surplus in Africa yet since the AI is hard-coded to never export lumber (something I don't understand or agree with)
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Marla_Singer
United in diversity
It's good to know for the AI.
Yeah, I've been thinking about this, but it seems a lot harder to change. The big specialist of AI loops at the end of a turn used to be @Nightinggale. I don't know if he's still around but I'm sure he would have an informative insight.
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Drunk-Monk
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Messages
- 56
I have really enjoyed 2.7, there has been really positive changes to the AI and large performance improvements. Thanks for all the hard work.
My suggestions and observations:
General -
The possibly of a power entering from the Pacific or South to prevent the clustering together of all the powers in the Northern continent, which leads to slower development and more conflict and many parts of the map untouched.
Roads should automatically be built on the tile a settlement is founded on and they should upgrade with the town hall to represent the towns infrastructure as it grows.
Maybe rename coastal ships to flotilla or fleet as they seem to represent many boats. The term small / large boat also seems a little odd when all the other units have historical names.
The AI loves to spam massive stacks of coastal ships, which are then easy targets for privateers.
Increase the space between cities to two squares. This will prevent the AI from spamming cities that cannibalise each others resources.
Russian AI seems to be poor at building roads.
To move or change the value of the Religious Founding Fathers, Nathaniel Hawthorne's bonus is very strong in comparison to Tome de Sousa.
The AI's reaction to declaration of Independence is strange, Simon Bolivar gave me units but several turns later declared war at pleased with a really weak invasion force.
I feel you should take a look at rebalancing the constitution mechanic. Perhaps "All men are free" should allow you to turn the slaves into free colonists. "Right to Bear Arms" should do more than add a trivial boost to colonists.
I'd like to see more boom and bust events, this would require you to make the most of your specialists and all the new resources in the game, and add more challenge. As of now the players economic strategy just seems revolve around having to prepare for diminishing returns.
I would like to see more challenge in the Revolution, perhaps as happened in history pre-rebellion the King could deploy units or build forts in your lands. Or the Rebellion rate would be capped at 75% relying on you facing a little more struggle at the start of the Rebellion, rather than a universal consensus that the Rebellion is good.
Military -
If the Natives kill units like rangers / native mercenaries etc they don't receive guns, this should be brought in line with the other units
Take away the ability to attach Great Generals to scouts and settler militias, the AI likes to do this does this to with obviously suboptimal results.
When natives offer to sell you mercenaries it seems that you can always get them for half price by choosing "That is too expensive" option.
During colonial wars enacted by your King there seems to be no end point or recognition of the war, destroying the opposition colonies doesn't provoke a reaction from your King and also doesn't seem to have any bearing on your relationship with the hostile King.
Tweak the Kings AI it seems to love landing units either directly outside the strongest cities or in remote areas which leads to problems in attacking.
Economy -
Financial demands from the Church / Pirates / King and Tribes selling units, should increase with income / rebellion level as its trivial to buy slaves and pay off Pirates during the late game.
The Tool factory seems inexpensive compared to other comparable buildings.
The Corvette seems to be overpriced in comparison to its abilties.
Change the prices and resources of the late game wagons, as of now they are far too cheap. The final wagon, seems to serve no purpose as it is outclassed by the carriage. The carriage being able to carry other wagons is also pretty exploitative.
I feel you should raise the price of Merchant ships in Europe, or require that the high end merchant ships demand a port with a dock to function, as of now why build anything other than the Galleon?
My suggestions and observations:
General -
The possibly of a power entering from the Pacific or South to prevent the clustering together of all the powers in the Northern continent, which leads to slower development and more conflict and many parts of the map untouched.
Roads should automatically be built on the tile a settlement is founded on and they should upgrade with the town hall to represent the towns infrastructure as it grows.
Maybe rename coastal ships to flotilla or fleet as they seem to represent many boats. The term small / large boat also seems a little odd when all the other units have historical names.
The AI loves to spam massive stacks of coastal ships, which are then easy targets for privateers.
Increase the space between cities to two squares. This will prevent the AI from spamming cities that cannibalise each others resources.
Russian AI seems to be poor at building roads.
To move or change the value of the Religious Founding Fathers, Nathaniel Hawthorne's bonus is very strong in comparison to Tome de Sousa.
The AI's reaction to declaration of Independence is strange, Simon Bolivar gave me units but several turns later declared war at pleased with a really weak invasion force.
I feel you should take a look at rebalancing the constitution mechanic. Perhaps "All men are free" should allow you to turn the slaves into free colonists. "Right to Bear Arms" should do more than add a trivial boost to colonists.
I'd like to see more boom and bust events, this would require you to make the most of your specialists and all the new resources in the game, and add more challenge. As of now the players economic strategy just seems revolve around having to prepare for diminishing returns.
I would like to see more challenge in the Revolution, perhaps as happened in history pre-rebellion the King could deploy units or build forts in your lands. Or the Rebellion rate would be capped at 75% relying on you facing a little more struggle at the start of the Rebellion, rather than a universal consensus that the Rebellion is good.
Military -
If the Natives kill units like rangers / native mercenaries etc they don't receive guns, this should be brought in line with the other units
Take away the ability to attach Great Generals to scouts and settler militias, the AI likes to do this does this to with obviously suboptimal results.
When natives offer to sell you mercenaries it seems that you can always get them for half price by choosing "That is too expensive" option.
During colonial wars enacted by your King there seems to be no end point or recognition of the war, destroying the opposition colonies doesn't provoke a reaction from your King and also doesn't seem to have any bearing on your relationship with the hostile King.
Tweak the Kings AI it seems to love landing units either directly outside the strongest cities or in remote areas which leads to problems in attacking.
Economy -
Financial demands from the Church / Pirates / King and Tribes selling units, should increase with income / rebellion level as its trivial to buy slaves and pay off Pirates during the late game.
The Tool factory seems inexpensive compared to other comparable buildings.
The Corvette seems to be overpriced in comparison to its abilties.
Change the prices and resources of the late game wagons, as of now they are far too cheap. The final wagon, seems to serve no purpose as it is outclassed by the carriage. The carriage being able to carry other wagons is also pretty exploitative.
I feel you should raise the price of Merchant ships in Europe, or require that the high end merchant ships demand a port with a dock to function, as of now why build anything other than the Galleon?
