[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

[raystuttgart]

Sure, we can change the iNativeAttitude modifiers a bit.

Actually I have been working / thinking about a real "Native Wars" concept.
(It would be based rare DLL-Diplo-Events and including new features for Natives, like possiblities of taking over villages of other tribes.)

It is simply not ready yet.
(Did not have the time to figure out the details and so many other topics are much higher prioritized.)

 

[colonialfan]

Native wars were typically sporadic, and mostly took the form of raids. Burning villages, taking captives to replace lost members of a tribe, etc. They were not like European wars, with the state placing a large emphasis on destroying an opponents army, capturing his cities/territory etc. Native tribes simply did not have the populations to conduct prolonged large scale conflicts. If native wars were to be a feature, it would be more realistic to have them raid one another and destroy a village or two then make peace, rather than continuosly fight one another.

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone

Actually I have been working / thinking about a real "Native Wars" concept.
(It would be based rare DLL-Diplo-Events and including new features for Natives, like possiblities of taking over villages of other tribes.)

Native wars were typically sporadic, and mostly took the form of raids. Burning villages, taking captives to replace lost members of a tribe, etc. They were not like European wars, with the state placing a large emphasis on destroying an opponents army, capturing his cities/territory etc. Native tribes simply did not have the populations to conduct prolonged large scale conflicts. If native wars were to be a feature, it would be more realistic to have them raid one another and destroy a village or two then make peace, rather than continuosly fight one another.

OH ! I see ! I understand what you mean (both of you !)

 

[raystuttgart]

@team:

New revision available in SVN.

It is only a tiny fix for a bug in Building Help (at Mouse-Over) reported here.
There was a small conflict in MultipleYieldsConsumed/Produced and MultipleProfessionsPerBuilding.

 

[Tigranes]

Native wars were typically sporadic, and mostly took the form of raids. Burning villages, taking captives to replace lost members of a tribe, etc. They were not like European wars, with the state placing a large emphasis on destroying an opponents army, capturing his cities/territory etc. Native tribes simply did not have the populations to conduct prolonged large scale conflicts. If native wars were to be a feature, it would be more realistic to have them raid one another and destroy a village or two then make peace, rather than continuosly fight one another.

We have so many different natives here with very different levels of organization.

Inca rule extended to nearly a hundred linguistic or ethnic communities, some 9 to 14 million people connected by a 25,000 kilometer road system. At their peak, 300,000 Mexica (the word "Aztec" is a modern (1900s) invention) presided over a wealthy tribute-empire comprising about 10 million people (almost half of Mexico's 25 million). In 1479, Mexican Axayacatl launched a major invasion of the Tarascan Empire with 32,000 Aztec soldiers. The Tarascans met them just across the border with 50,000 soldiers and scored a resounding victory, killing or capturing over 90% of the "Aztec" army.

Iroquois wars were brutal and are considered one of the bloodiest series of conflicts in the history of North America. As the Iroquois succeeded in the war and enlarged their territory, they realigned the tribal geography of North America, and destroyed several large tribal confederacies—including the Huron, who simply seize to exist as a tribe!

I have witnessed a very effective Native war in TAC. One tribe practically erased another I was impressed then and surprised now when I don't see the same in RnR.

 

[colonialfan]

We have so many different natives here with very different levels of organization.

Absolutely true. My statement was more of a generalization of Native American warfare for the majority of tribes we have represented.

Inca rule extended to nearly a hundred linguistic or ethnic communities, some 9 to 14 million people connected by a 25,000 kilometer road system. At their peak, 300,000 Mexica (the word "Aztec" is a modern (1900s) invention) presided over a wealthy tribute-empire comprising about 10 million people (almost half of Mexico's 25 million). In 1479, Mexican Axayacatl launched a major invasion of the Tarascan Empire with 32,000 Aztec soldiers. The Tarascans met them just across the border with 50,000 soldiers and scored a resounding victory, killing or capturing over 90% of the "Aztec" army.

Few native civs in the America's had populations to equal those army sizes much less field a force of that size. Larger armies were possible due to concentracted popultion bases and a tighter ethnopolitical cohension, (desired or not by all members) in super states like the Inca, Aztec, Maya etc. Generally they were the exception not the rule. The tribes of North America even with confederacies like the Iroquios, were much smaller and more fractured.

Iroquois wars were brutal and are considered one of the bloodiest series of conflicts in the history of North America. As the Iroquois succeeded in the war and enlarged their territory, they realigned the tribal geography of North America, and destroyed several large tribal confederacies—including the Huron, who simply seize to exist as a tribe!

Iroquois wars were certainly brutal and bloody. However, their wars were still conducted on a intermittent raiding party basis. Even at the height of their power the Iroquois only had a population of around 12,000- 20,000. A warparty of 1,000-2,000 warriors would be a huge force for even the Iroquois! A more typical warparty would be 200-300 warriors. The idea was to raid, kill a few of the enemy, take captives to replace your own losses, and possibly capture some other form of trophy (weapons, food, etc.) Hopefully if you were successful enough and intimidated your enemy to a sufficient degree you would wear them down to the point where they would vacate their lands or subjugate themselves to your rule.

The Huron vacated their lands. Their confederacy ceased to exist but the Huron themselves are still in existence. They are now more commonly known as the Wyandot nation.

I have witnessed a very effective Native war in TAC. One tribe practically erased another I was impressed then and surprised now when I don't see the same in RnR.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps the Aztec and Inca could be made more aggressive and given higher populations, to reflect their capability of producing larger and stronger forces than other native civs. That way the majority might still pursue a hit and run type of warfare, whereas the Aztec and Inca would be more geared towards a domination strategy. Not sure if the AI would be able to do this, but just an idea.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Perhaps the Aztec and Inca could be made more aggressive and given higher populations, to reflect their capability of producing larger and stronger forces than other native civs. That way the majority might still pursue a hit and run type of warfare, whereas the Aztec and Inca would be more geared towards a domination strategy. Not sure if the AI would be able to do this, but just an idea.

Sounds nice
Seconded!

 

[raystuttgart]

Perhaps the Aztec and Inca could be made more aggressive

They are already slightly more aggressive.
(Against Europeans and Natives.)

But we could make them even a bit more aggressive against other Natives.

@Robert:
Could you check and change the balancing (for some selected Native Nations) to be a little bit more aggressive towards other Natives ?

... and given higher populations, ...

Incas and Aztecs already do have larger empires than other Native Civs.
(We cannot overexagerate here.)

And as I said:

Whenever I have the time, I will finish and present a concept for Native Wars.
(Currently however, I am drowning in work that is higher prioritized.)

 

[raystuttgart]

@team:

New revision available in SVN.

• small bugfix for YieldHelp with MultipleYieldConsumed
• small bugfix for ChooseProfessionPopup on Map with MultipleYieldConsumed

 

[Robert Surcouf]

@Robert:
Could you check and change the balancing (for some selected Native Nations) to be a little bit more aggressive towards other Natives ?

Sure, why not ? I'll do it.
But may I ask a stupid question? What will we do with those updates. I mean everyone will have to wait until release number 2...
Or, are we going to post a release 1 with fixes ?

Anyway, for now I'm exclusively testing release 1 as it was published...

 

[raystuttgart]

Sure, why not ? I'll do it.

Ok, great.

Or, are we going to post a release 1 with fixes ?

I guess, we will simply see.

Maybe we will have a Release 1.1 in a few weeks.
(It probably depends how many fixes we will need to do in the next time.)

 

[colonialfan]

They are already slightly more aggressive.
(Against Europeans and Natives.)
But we could make them even a bit more aggressive against other Natives.

Making them a little more aggressive sounds good

Incas and Aztecs already do have larger empires than other Native Civs.
(We cannot overexagerate here.)

Absolutely not. Sorry I did not realize their increased size in the game. I play on historical maps, typically as England on the eastern seabord so I don't get to run into the Aztec and Inca much.

But you are right we don't want things unbalanced where they are so strong they overun the Americas.

And as I said:
Whenever I have the time, I will finish and present a concept for Native Wars.
(Currently however, I am drowning in work that is higher prioritized.)

No rush Ray. I was just bouncing ideas around to keep the momentum going.

 

[Tigranes]

Is it possible for Aztecs Incas and Maya to have their unique units as unique units, not just unique looking graphics of Brave unit?

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Is it possible for Aztecs Incas and Maya to have their unique units as unique units, not just unique looking graphics of Brave unit?

They would need to be unique professions, I suppose?

 

[millansoft]

Hi guys, did you consider include the BUG mod for Civilization?
Not sure if it can be adapted to Colonization, just an idea

Regards!

Moderator Action: Merged into the main developement thread.

 

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys, did you consider include the BUG mod for Civilization?
Not sure if it can be adapted to Colonization, just an idea

Sorry, I really did not play Civ4 or any of the mods related for years.
Thus I do not know what you expect or what to tell you.

It is usually possible to adapt specific aspects from Civ4 Mods or ModComps into Mods for Colonization,
since the code base is very similar and the technologies involved are the same.
(I have done that before already.)

If you tell us very specificly which features you would like us to adapt from that mod, we might have a discussion about it.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Sorry, I really did not play Civ4 or any of the mods related for years.
Thus I do not know what you expect or what to tell you.

It is usually possible to adapt specific aspects from Civ4 Mods or ModComps into Mods for Colonization,
since the code base is very similar and the technologies involved are the same.
(I have done that before already.)

If you tell us very specificly which features you would like us to adapt from that mod, we might have a discussion about it.

It seems to me that BUG is a quite complex mod which changes the interface quite a bit. So I imagine it to be a bit too impractical to assimilate it into Colonization.

 

[Schmiddie]

Is it possible for Aztecs Incas and Maya to have their unique units as unique units, not just unique looking graphics of Brave unit?

Hm, why?

We have 4 unique looking graphics (warrior, armed warrior, mounted warrior and armed mounted warrior) with different values for every native tribe. I cannot comprehend why we should change that for Aztecs, Incas and Maya.

Or do you mean the indication of native units in the management screen (I know - we did not create different graphics for every native unit but only one for every tribe since this is A LOT of work without any additional value.).

 

[Tigranes]

Well, I just thought Aztec Brave (Jaguar) could behave a little different from Inuit Brave, because ... they were different. For example Aztec Braves could have an ability to enslave and sacrifice.

 

[Schmiddie]

Ah, ok. Then I think Androrc is right.

They would need to be unique professions, I suppose?

That would be a little more complex....