Religions+ Brainstorming

[[to_xp]Gekko]

well Hippus+ is coming which is going to add flavour to the last civ that was feeling vanilla. Esus+ is already done and is excellent. tesbs is going to add Dimensional magic soon. most of the less-than-awesome stuff from vanilla FFH has been taken care of in Wild Mana.

so I'm thinking it could be time to start looking at the religions, and how to make them even more unique, flavourful and interesting. OO has undergone such a treatment in Orbis lately for example, and even though I don't think it needs such an overhaul, some added perks would be nice indeed.

so if you have any idea about possible ways to improve religions to make them more fun and special, please post them here

right now imho the ones that would most benefit from such a treatment are OO, Empy and Order.

OO is cool, but I feel adding some "whacky" thing to give the feel of a crazy religion would be great. Lunatics are way better than vanilla FFH, and Asylums keeping them in place until you decide to set them loose is a great idea. still it's not much, and the passive effect of asylums is really annoying. stealing some ideas from Orbis may be in order here

Order suffers from a general lack of interesting things, it's not a bad religion but it's kinda anonymous. I think increasing the militaristic, fanaticism theme somehow here would be great. and Unyielding Order sucks on T4 priests, you don't want them sitting idle in your cities! giving them Pillar of fire might be very interesting.

Empyrean suffers from a similar syndrome. good units that can freeze enemies, migthy hero but still uninteresting for a religion that's supposed to be good and peacekeeping. I'd support giving it a more peaceful theme, making more of a support hero than the one man show he is now. for example, Empy could decrease offensive strength outside of borders to encourage a diplomatic approach to the game. linked to this could be a imho much needed overhaul to the Overcouncil, quite possibly with a victory condition attached to it.

so there it is, if anyone has opinions please provide them and let's see what we can come up with to make religions even more interesting in Erebus. imho the best changes are the ones which provide the possibility for a unique playstyle. do know that I only specifically mentioned these religions cuz they are the ones I think need it more, but by all means if you got good ideas for any religion do post them

 

[Aline]

I would love to see the Gone to Hell victory for AV.

 

[jrandrew]

I would like to see more done with unit religions. I'm still not all that clear on the details of how units get assigned religion. I mean, I know a unit can receive a religion when it's built in a city with the religion in question, but the percentages and advantages/disadvantages are not all all that clear.

Perhaps Melee and Disciple units with Order as their religion gain +10% when attacking Ashen Veil and OO units? Also, if an Order unit kills an evil unit, the evil unit doesn't end up going to the immortals as an imp -- e.g. the Order really "true-killed" it.

Living OO units gain +20% resistance to cold? (e.g. Drown don't really need more help..)

Empyrean units gain +20% withdrawl rate in their own territory? Also, I was working on an FFH Dural modmod a while back where I had created "Diplomat" and "Lawyer" units that had varying positive or negative diplomatic effects when they were near cities. Lawyers could sue enemy units that were in Dural or neutral territory and apply a promotion to increase their upkeep cost by 2 or 3 times. The money should end up coming to you although the FFH XML tags weren't exactly working well. Kind of like Loki, hard to tell when he steals gold from other cities if you are really getting it.

No violence, just really inconvenient to fend off all the property damage lawsuits, etc. Relationship bonuses with other civs would start to add up if you left a diplomat in their capital for a while. This would be a nice non-violent perk for the Empyrean.

 

[Fafnir13]

We've already got vampires and demons. Lawyers would put us over our evil quota.

I'd like to see more T4 religious units like the Mithril Golem and that Dis guy. They don't necessarily have to take the form of one giant unit, but something like Shadowriders. If Essus still has those. I haven't really been keeping up on what all got changed with them.

Random ideas:

Units with the Order religion have 10% chance to convert defeated enemy units. Stacks with other conversion promos.

Drown/Stygian guards are invisible while in the water. They are supposed to be walking along the bottom, aren't they?
Problem: How do you defend your OO cultists as they typhoon the coastline?
Answer: A special ability/spell called Ambush that allows the invisible Drown/Stygians to stack defend while invisible. Make sure it's not blocked by the Amurite World Spell.
Might be too much work for such a small thing.

Empy Vicar "Spell": Preach
Works like other temporary building spells, giving a bonus to culture and hapiness. Small chance per turn to spread Religion to city.

FoL with anyone but Elves doesn't seem that useful.
Fawns are kind of...meh. If there are lots of animals around, having Satyrs is nice, but you have to build Fawns to get them. Even late game.
Perhaps they could get some affinity strength from somewhere or perhaps invisibility (+ambush ability lifted from Drown/Stygians) in forests.
No early heroes, IIRC. Horse guy is serviceable if bland. Yvain is a good terraformer, but an archmage with Nature III could do the job. Maybe it's fine, but some T4 wouldn't hurt. Perhaps something as minor as allowing the High priests to each summon two treants would help. Maybe even three.

Ashen Veil is and has been working great. Couldn't be happier with it, except that I think it's Balrogs still interfer with the National Limit for Infernal Balrogs. Maybe that's been fixed.
@Aline: What is the Gone to Hell victory condition?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that's from FF, you win if you're AV and can get Hell Terrain spreading over 90% of the world IIRC. good stuff.

 

[esvath]

And maybe WM should import it, no?

 

[tesb]

how about implementing religions specific (i.e. can only be cast when adopting a state religion) spells that could be cast x times per turn where x is the amount of temples or cities with your state religion you have.

those spells would not be available to disciple units alone, but to most units for example:
-purge undead:
available with empyrian as state religion to melee, mounted and diciple units
the unit gains +x% against vampires and undead for one turn

-convicting strike:
available with order as state religion to melee, mounted and diciple units
the unit gans +x% to capture an enemy unit for one turn

-martyrdom:
available with order as state religion to melee, mounted and diciple units
the unit dies in battle, gains +x% strength, heals all units in the stack

... just suggestions

 

[esvath]

For Empyrean
I gave Luridus spell : Tower of Sun
(cast in city, the Luridus creates Tower of Sun, his residence. As long as he is in the city, the Tower remains.)
Benefits : 25% , 25% , give unit promotion Enlighted (+1XP/turn, 100% wears off)

For Order
I gave spell Become Patriarch for highest level Prior.
The Patriarch can Call Holy War (enforce peace among all Order nations and all Order nations will declare war to the Patriarch's enemies)

 

[Fafnir13]

Will the AI understand the patriarch spell?

Was randomly thinking about Hema today. Great pedia entry, and I won't say no to an archmage hero, but his special ability is rather lame. Random damage distribution? So...good when I'm wounded and they're not? Not quite sure what it's good for.
It also doesn't match the pedia entry at all. It's supposed to be uncontrolled dreams warping reality.
As a suggestion: Keep Hema as an archmage but remove the special ability. Replace it with a "wonder" type spell called Hema's Nightmares that auto-casts every turn (w/o blocking Hema from further casting, of course). Effects could be:

Summons random monster things that fight you.
Two to four barbarian monsters would be good. They would appear around Hema's stack and be able to attack on their next turn. These could come with or without an expiration timer.

Summon random monster things that help you.
Same as above. I would want a longer timer then regular summons. Three turns sounds about right.

Random Damage in Stack
Some random, non-lethal damage happens. Cap of 20-30% or so.

Random Damage outside of Stack
Yes, it can hit friendlies. IMPORTANT: must not be able to cause auto-DoW from allied/nuetral parties hit.

Unit Mutation
Randomly mutates a unit in/nearby the stack.

Nothing
Probably around 30-50%. The idea is for random stuff to happen but not happen every single turn.

Aaaaand one last random one that certainly won't make the cut:

Spawn More Overlords

Plays the appropriate sound-bight from a certain RTS. An Octopus Overlord is summoned somewhere out in the world. About thirty strength, amphibious, can cast typhoon, and cause nearby units to become enraged. Erm...this enraged should have a % chance to expire every turn, otherwise it could become game breaking as your entire stack buggers off to nowhere like enraged units do (all enraged should gumblegrumblesulk).
Anyways, the OO would also have a special enraged (so you couldn't control it) and Hidden Nationality (so it can attack everyone). You could just make it barbarian, but then you couldn't keep track of what havoc your little Overlords is wreaking.
By the way, this should only have a 1-5% chance and only when the AC is above 50-70

Hmm...do spells cast by HN units cause DoW? Can enraged units even cast spells? More problems.
Like I said, I doubt that last one could ever make the cut, but the rest are at least plausible, right?

 

[captainmission]

i'd like to see FOL terrain altering effects made 'passive' so i'm not keeping all my priests out blooming or yvavin out vitalising and get them on the frontline. Giving forest a much increase change of spread with FOL as state religion and having a temple of leave and/or guardian of nature cause terrain to upgrade to grassland similar to malakim/illian effect (though at a much slower rate).

With that priest could then be given a more frontline role. For example an offensive verious of bloom- they can send out a tendril of forest into enemy territory so you have a corridoor you can send elves, fawns and treants down.

Fawns are also a bit bland atm. If you are going FOL you'll generally be going down the rcon line anyway. Fafnir13 idea of giving them ambush or invsibiilty in forest sound good or maybe some entangle ability similar to slow. Making them discpline units so they could benefit from potency or altar might make them more distinct.

Maybe order could act as a sort of anti AV- that is something that can be powerful but could potentially grow out of your control and if you don't have a state religion it might be a bad idea to have arround.

Basically order are fanatics and the cities automatically produce random units as crusaders- independent AI faction similar to the propsed hippus mercanaries. These would go off and attack evil doers- evil civs, those who use evil mana, those with evil civics. So if you have order as a state religion they might aid you in a war or atleast weaken evil enemies. However as the amergedon counter increases they become more intolerant and fantical- attacking nutral or even good civs that follow different religions anyone not following the 'true path'. If order is in you city but you don't have order state religion or follow there agenda they can cause riots or other event ("order fanatic burn down you theatre after a 'blashephoms' play" etc).

 

[DonQuigleone]

Octopus Overlords: I like the idea of being able to "summon an overlord", I think that there's not enough terrain deformation(or something like that...) that goes on with the OO, perhaps in OO territory there should be some kind of spread of madness, or the region should start spawning deep ones or something (to further the cthulhuesque overtones). Perhaps an aquatic summonable civ (the overlords). Or maybe with a strong OO presence more sea monsters could spawn that would encroach on the coasts.

 

[Fafnir13]

There's room for an aquatic race, but only depending on how the Aifon's faired. I don't know the lore as well as certain people, but here's what I remember. Danalin, water god, had this favored race of aquatic type elf things called the Aifon. Something terrible was going to befall their island. But, due to the pact, Danalin could not interfere. One Aifon went on a world wide quest to let Danalin into the world to save them, but decided against it at the end. Then something cataclysmic happened to the Aifon and they were gone. Danalin got quite depressed at this and went to sleep, basically giving up on the world and everyone in it. Then one of the bad guy's chief angels sneaks in and starts messing with his dreams. They become nightmares. This is what the cult of the Octopus Overlords is worshiping.
I've heard some theories that Hemah is Danalin or, at least, a part of him that now wanders the world with no recollection of who he is. Kael certainly has that bit of lore figured out, but how it progresses is still an unknown, from what I can tell. Saverous at least has a known story of redemption. MagisterCultuum could probably correct me on a number of points and tell you more.

Back to the Aifon. If they aren't all dead, they might be rather mad what with their god having nightmares and stuff. This would be a good source of a stygian race. They could be a civ that comes a the start of the game of one that gets summoned by some event caused by the cult. Perhaps they were merely sealed away.
If they are all dead, it would take significantly more to justify their reappearance. A partial awakening of Danalin might work, but anything related to god stirring is touchy business. The pact kind of gets in the way.
I mentioned that Aifon who was going to summon Danalin earlier. I don't know where this final summoning was supposed to take place. I think it might have been on Aifon island. Perhaps once Hemah reaches a certain level and/or certain technologies have been reached you can take Hemah to the island and partially perform that ritual to summon Danalin. This would, in addition to summong in the Aifon, turn Hemah into a more powerful form which is also the new civ's leader. Depending on how the awakening is done, this would have a big impact on all OO civs. Either the nightmares continue and things get crazier, or they end and OO becomes a good religion.
Either way, this would be a rather large undertaking, even without thinking about the new civ.

 

[lemonjelly]

IIRC, the Ritual was prepared, ready to go, but they decided against it, then, the Illians used the ritual to summon their god, which caused the AoI, so the ritual would probably need to be rediscovered...

 

[DonQuigleone]

I think the nightmares themselves would be a good civ. A nighmarish mix of sea monsters and stygian hordes coming out from beneath the waves to ravage the land!

To make them unique I think the civ should be centered on the Overlords themselves, large titanic units that are weird tentacly things that mostly stay at sea. They are people's nightmares manifested in flesh (perhaps tied to Hemah) and they wish to spread the madness over the entire world! Perhaps the power of the overlords could be related to something to do with nightmares.

 

[Valkrionn]

In my view, the 'horrible thing' that was going to happen was caused by the Aifons. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy. It was foretold something bad would happen, Trenton Majosi goes out to find a way to prevent it, finds the necessary ritual, and even prepares it... But decides against it, as it would restart the gods war.

Unfortunately, the Illians used the same ritual to summon Mulcarn... And IIRC, it is the same ritual used for Auric to ascend. It requires the souls of THOUSANDS... And if Majosi already prepared it, the Illians had a convenient source of those souls in the Aifons.

In my view, the Aifons were utterly, irretrievably destroyed, in order for Mulcarn to enter Erebus. And they were destroyed because of a chain of events leading from a single prophecy.

It's dark, it's fitting for the setting, and it makes sense... But it leaves no room for the Aifons.

 

[Valkrionn]

I think the nightmares themselves would be a good civ. A nighmarish mix of sea monsters and stygian hordes coming out from beneath the waves to ravage the land!

To make them unique I think the civ should be centered on the Overlords themselves, large titanic units that are weird tentacly things that mostly stay at sea. They are people's nightmares manifested in flesh (perhaps tied to Hemah) and they wish to spread the madness over the entire world! Perhaps the power of the overlords could be related to something to do with nightmares.

That is close to what I have planned for the Isenj, but I won't go into detail. They'll be described when they are implemented in RifE, I don't want either of my aquatic race ideas to be stolen.

 

[Pazyryk]

Speaking of aquatic races, is there any way to make additional tile types that are only visible to certain civs? That way you could have a variety of tile types (Abyssal plains, undersea volcano, etc.) that appear for your civ but just look like "ocean" or "deep ocean" to every one else. Also would be nice for dwarves to have an interesting set of "deep roads" type types that all appear as peaks to every one else.

 

[Neomega]

Speaking of aquatic races, is there any way to make additional tile types that are only visible to certain civs? That way you could have a variety of tile types (Abyssal plains, undersea volcano, etc.) that appear for your civ but just look like "ocean" or "deep ocean" to every one else. Also would be nice for dwarves to have an interesting set of "deep roads" type types that all appear as peaks to every one else.

IF possible, it would be cool if dwarves built tunnels instead of roads, which only they or permanent allies could use or see... with even the commando promotion not working on them. It would also be great if said tunnels could be built through mountains.


but... I think this is off topic... so...

 

[lemonjelly]

In RifE, the Mazatl build Trails instead of Roads, so the Tunnel idea is possible, maybe make a new thread about it?

 

[DonQuigleone]

In my view, the 'horrible thing' that was going to happen was caused by the Aifons. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy. It was foretold something bad would happen, Trenton Majosi goes out to find a way to prevent it, finds the necessary ritual, and even prepares it... But decides against it, as it would restart the gods war.

Unfortunately, the Illians used the same ritual to summon Mulcarn... And IIRC, it is the same ritual used for Auric to ascend. It requires the souls of THOUSANDS... And if Majosi already prepared it, the Illians had a convenient source of those souls in the Aifons.

In my view, the Aifons were utterly, irretrievably destroyed, in order for Mulcarn to enter Erebus. And they were destroyed because of a chain of events leading from a single prophecy.

It's dark, it's fitting for the setting, and it makes sense... But it leaves no room for the Aifons.

Perhaps the only thing left are their Nightmares O_o. Maybe the nightmares of thousands of extinguished souls became food for the overlords....

The Mulkarn ritual required merely their bodies leaving their souls to haunt the earth ... sorta thing -> are the nightmares that caused the existence of the octopus overlords.