Religious victory?

[embryodead]

Assassinating settled GPs is the default behaviour of the SuperSpies mod, which I removed because I didn't like it. I don't have too much preference for the current system, however, and I can easily bring it back. I just felt it's rather impersonal to remove stacks of GPs (I remember MessageMan suggested settled GPs have names, but that's very complicated considering how they are stored and displayed).

As for the Relic, making it capturable has to be coded separately so it's irrelevant whether it's Building or GP.

I really don't get the point about Relics as GPs being more original than relics as Buildings. It's still the same thing, except with buildings, everything is already done and no extra code is needed. They can have seperate category in the Civlopedia as well, so they won't even show up as buildings/wonders, or specialists, but something entirely new, like, say, spells in FFH2.

You can put several relics in the same city even if they are not named (BTS supports mutliple buildings of the same type). But I'd rather name them now If there are URVs and Hindus don't need relics, then they won't have any.

A relic that shows up as a relic / reliquary = makes more sense, code is already there, allows unique names & much more features than just yield bonus

A relic that shows up as a specialist / great person = none of the above!

Relic unit is still a unit, nothing changes in this regard.

As for dynamics, rather than hiding them in Kyzyl Kum (not particularly realistic) I'd assign each relic to a semi-random pre-placed city or a semi-random empty province. The first player that founds a city in said province, spawns the relic unit, i.e. "Settlers have found the fabled Holy Mantle in a nearby village / cave / tomb."

Currently you can only pick the relic up when you capture a city. A manual option can be added if needed, i.e. a missionary can get an extra button to "load" a relic, which would transform it into the relic unit. This way you could move relics more freely for the URV (extra condition to bring all relics to Jerusalem etc.); this one is simple actually.

 

[Tigranes]

Some updates:



For now, let me comment on the raw ideas:

- seeing that minor religions are disabled and have been designed as unusable from the beginning, I'd rather not get into this and leave that out

Let's for now focus on the major religions and talk about minors later. I really dream about the counter that tells how much forest I still need to chop

- generating GPs with Piety would be abusable, unless it's a one-time deal (i.e. once per game); is that really needed?

It takes a lot of effort to get to 90 Piety. Player can have an option -- cash those points and get Great Saint (will help Shia) or continue to 100 for Royal Saint. Think about Piety as some sort of Great Saint points, how is that an abuse, if you start over with the believer after you cash it?

- Sunni URV seems way too difficult, in particular the Shahadah sound very much like Conquest

Well, there are many other options here. You basically need to convince the leader to convert -- the noble end that justify any means. Bribe them, win the war and force them, trade with them and send missionaries, make them love you and convert for you. Islam did not spread by sword only. But clearly Islam is more political in its core message than any other religion. The concepts of jihad, jizya, Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb, zimmis, kafirs -- need to be represented somehow. To make it easier for the player -- once the ruler converts one time -- that civ gets a check mark -- they can convert back later. By the time you win all the existing leaders need to have a check marks against their names. Or they should not exist

- 12 Imams - I'd stick to either 11 or 12 settled
- Holy Sites - this makes the URV only achievable by Safavids, possibly Ak Koyunlu, because Shia wonders come late (i.e. Shah Mosque); Esp. Fatimids would be very problematic.
- This mostly goes against your previous idea, which I also like and started making notes; I mean relic hunt - I have enough relics for all religions except Hinduism

11 Imams is fine And make it possible for Fatimids -- perhaps 2 Relics and 3 Shia Holy Buildings ?

Why does it go against? And if you make Relics Generic -- we can stop worrying about Hindus. Players can name Relics any way they like for their goals

 

[Leoreth]

Think about Piety as some sort of Great Saint points, how is that an abuse, if you start over with the believer after you cash it?

I assume that's related to how piety is calculated. It's basically a score for how pious your empire is based on a number of factors (mainly how many of a certain set of buildings are in your empire). Direct plus/minus effects like discovering certain techs or in your case, "spending" piety to get a saint are only temporary and the rating afterwards steadily returns to the rating intrinsic to your empire. So you're not really spending the piety points, and once your empire is pious enough to create one saint using piety all you have to do is wait for your piety rating to rise again, unless nothing else changes.

 

[Tigranes]

Well, I understand that. What I am saying is after you hit 90 for the first time -- you can have an option -- Gain a GS and return back to the base Piety level. Everything you did to score that 90 (say built 10 churches) -- does not count anymore. You start scoring new points by, say, building 11th church...

 

[Bluebags]

Well, I understand that. What I am saying is after you hit 90 for the first time -- you can have an option -- Gain a GS and return back to the base Piety level. Everything you did to score that 90 (say built 10 churches) -- does not count anymore. You start scoring new points by, say, building 11th church...

But isn't base piety based on both the spread of religions in your empire, as well as the religious buildings you build? If that's the case, if I have a pure Sunni empire with all of the Sunni buildings, then base piety is probably going to be close to 90 to begin with. If building a church only contributed an absolute amount of piety, rather than affecting the base as well, it would work, certainly, but I don't think it does.

 

[embryodead]

Well, I understand that. What I am saying is after you hit 90 for the first time -- you can have an option -- Gain a GS and return back to the base Piety level. Everything you did to score that 90 (say built 10 churches) -- does not count anymore. You start scoring new points by, say, building 11th church...

Leoreth is correct, and it seems you're still thinking more of a RFCE system, where you get more points by building more churches. It just doesn't work this way here (i.e. you don't build X churches to score 90, as building 10 can often yield less piety than building 4).

To give you some numbers: when you hit 90 piety, your base piety is probably around 80 already just from religions & religious buildings, so getting back to 90 is very easy. If you add a wonder or shrine to the mix, it's easy to get to over 90 base piety. I specifically designed it this way to have a system that is dynamic and allows small kingdoms to be as pious as big ones. I do not want a linear system.

 

[embryodead]

Well, there are many other options here. You basically need to convince the leader to convert -- the noble end that justify any means. Bribe them, win the war and force them, trade with them and send missionaries, make them love you and convert for you. Islam did not spread by sword only. But clearly Islam is more political in its core message than any other religion. The concepts of jihad, jizya, Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb, zimmis, kafirs -- need to be represented somehow. To make it easier for the player -- once the ruler converts one time -- that civ gets a check mark -- they can convert back later. By the time you win all the existing leaders need to have a check marks against their names. Or they should not exist

This is very unlikely due to the fact it involves programming the diplomacy part in the DLL. Lets stick to % of religion, % of leaders or number of leaders.

And make it possible for Fatimids -- perhaps 2 Relics and 3 Shia Holy Buildings ?

Relics for sure, but do you mean 3 Shia wonders? There are only 3 buildable ones in the game, Al-Azhar, Imam Reza Shrine and Shah Mosque. Only one of them is early enough for Fatimids.

Why does it go against? And if you make Relics Generic -- we can stop worrying about Hindus. Players can name Relics any way they like for their goals

What I meant was that Relic Hunt and URV are your two different ideas for Religious Victory and since I've grown fond of relics I'd rather have both. Like I said, this would involve having relics as part of URV for 3 or 4 Religions (i.e. not Hindus).

 

[embryodead]

Here's what I meant by handling it as neither a building nor a specialist, but a new thing:

 

[Tigranes]

Relics for sure, but do you mean 3 Shia wonders? There are only 3 buildable ones in the game, Al-Azhar, Imam Reza Shrine and Shah Mosque. Only one of them is early enough for Fatimids.

You are forgetting about Imam Ali Mosque (Shia Shrine) and Melvana Tomb (which can count as a Shia wonder)...

 

[Bluebags]

Here's what I meant by handling it as neither a building nor a specialist, but a new thing:

They wont be too OP I hope? Personally I never end up settling my relics as I never seem to end up needing the happiness by the time I claim them. With other features like this I think I'd be more inclined to use them.

Other than that, they look pretty awesome

 

[Tigranes]

Here's what I meant by handling it as neither a building nor a specialist, but a new thing:

In your implementation this looks like a very good and fresh concept , I will call relic -- "mobile building", for now. The only huge request is to make "sabotage building" mission capable to kidnap the relic. I mean, when successful Spy destroys True Cross "Building" in the city, it becomes mobile unit and belongs to the same civ as the spy. And perhaps that newly "freed" Relic unit gets catapulted to the nearest plot with the friendly culture...

 

[Bluebags]

In your implementation this looks like a very good and fresh concept , I will call relic -- "mobile building", for now. The only huge request is to make "sabotage building" mission capable to kidnap the relic. I mean, when successful Spy destroys True Cross "Building" in the city, it becomes mobile unit and belongs to the same civ as the spy. And perhaps that newly "freed" Relic unit gets catapulted to the nearest plot with the friendly culture...

Well, you could have a probability that the spy claims the relic for its civ, a probability that it is "reclaimed" by the civ that owned it (meaning it needs to be resettled) and maybe even a probability that it is "lost" (maybe with its own chance of cropping up somewhere else, or being lost for eternity)?

I think the main thing I'd like to see (even with just the current relics) is the ability to "unsettle" them, sort of like that crown thing in FfH2. Or is there already that feature and I just don't realise?

 

[embryodead]

Currently the only way to unsettle relics is by capturing the city.

Second way I'll add will be to unsettle your relics manually with a missionary.

Possible third way would be with a spy. It's rather complicated though. What happens to the relic after it's captured? Realistically it should turn up in the same city, but it can't since there's no guarantee that the city is friendly. I guess it'll get teleported away to the nearest neutral plot.

 

[Tigranes]

Spy can instantly return to the capital -- so Relic in the Neutral/Friendly plot is realistic enough

 

[embryodead]

Yeah, OK (though Spies no longer return to the capital in SoI, they return to a nearby city )

 

[Tigranes]

A word of caution -- don't you think that we have too many Christian-only Relics for a mod called Sword of Islam? Seven Relics was an optimal number, why did you create so many, got carried away? Also what would Muslim civs do with the True Cross, for example? They cannot settle it without Christianity. What if AI just disband the Relic unit?

 

[embryodead]

A word of caution -- don't you think that we have too many Christian-only Relics for a mod called Sword of Islam? Seven Relics was an optimal number, why did you create so many, got carried away? Also what would Muslim civs do with the True Cross, for example? They cannot settle it without Christianity. What if AI just disband the Relic unit?

Errr... there's exactly 6 Christian-only relics and 6 Muslim-only ones. I skipped the shared ones since it's easier if I keep Religion prereqs to 2.

The only thing a Muslim civ can do with the True Cross is hide & hoard it (like Saladin did).

Basically, in-game, a relic is both a unique unit and a reliquary (not visible in the city graphics); in Civilopedia it shows up only in the Relics category. I think I'll make it show the Relic unit instead of a picture, because I have very nice pictures of all Christian relics/events, but with Islamic ones I'm stuck with low quality photos of reliquaries in Topkapi palace.

The unit can be converted to a reliquary if the required religion is present in the city and matches your state religion. Otherwise you have a useless maintenance-free unit that can still be captured, however.

Disbanding of units can be disabled, both for the AI and Humans.

Alternatively, it can be allowed, but a destroyed relic would respawn in another part of the Middle East after some time (preferably Independent or unsettled province), which would actually be quite correct... after all we have several Holy Lances and Mandylions/Turin Shrouds, as well as a couple hundred pieces of the True Cross

 

[blizzrd]

So no Buddhist/Zoroastrian relics then?

 

[embryodead]

No, minor religions stay minor.

 

[jammerculture]

I'm excited! This is a new and interesting feature that can really add more game play aspects, and is very consistent with the flavor of this mod. Plus features such as this, side quests, if you will, are really beneficial in a game where you often spend some amount of turns waiting for research to come in, or your army to be built.

The relic returning with the spy is not a bad option and makes sense, as if the spy is stealing it. There should be a chance of failure though, in which the relic is lost, and then can reappear randomly later and in a different place.

edead, I can't believe you are still adding to a mod that has been excellent, balanced and complete for quite some time, and I truly thank you.