"Religon of peace"

[Princeps]

That's another of your bright arguments, like that about Jews being criminals?

Actually, I was refering to the IDF (shekel, or whatever his name was, claims to have been part of IDF). I hold no anti-semitic believes.

 

[Winner]

He may have been . I've heard accounts that his "Gallic War" is a brutal tale . But where does Christianity come into it ? These were the conquests of pre-Christian Rome .

Don't give him a credit, what he said is utter nonsense.

Anyway, since Christianity has become the state religion in Roman Empire, no further conquests happened.

But denialists will maintain, that Christianity is far worse that Islam, which has expanded by force from the day one. That's another fine example of hypocrisy of certain people here. Unfortunately, I must be careful in using that word, because it is on the reason-to-ban list here.

 

[Princeps]

That's the silliest argument I've heard in a long time , and believe me , I've heard many . The Romans , when they conquered Gaul , did not exterminate Gallic culture . It was lying there , under the surface , so that when the Romans left , it re-asserted itself .

In Islam , however , a part of the faith is that it destroys the past .

When a country is a victim of Muslim imperialism , it cannot recover unless the majority of people retain their religion . The Persians are dead , and so is their culture . Pre-Islamic Arabia was obliterated by Islam . Pre-Islamic Egypt , of Pharonic fame , is also gone . So is Hindu-Buddhist Afghanistsn . The only country to have successfully resisted so far is India . And even we're having a tough time recovering from about a thousand years of imperialist oppression .

Also, this post is BS. Persian culture was hardly "wiped out". Go to Persia if you want to see. Talk to "Persians"

In fact, the word "Persia" is coined by Europeans.

The "pre-islamic" egypt, or Pharonic egypt was gone long before the Arabs came. Christianity and centuries of foreign rule had wiped it out. Afganistan, well, I don't know enough about that, but I'll think twice before taking your word for anything.

Anyway, since Christianity has become the state religion in Roman Empire, no further conquests happened.

No. THat happened before. In fact, after Christianity became state religion, the official rhetoric of the empire might've become more humane, however, reality is that the Empire was a stagnant beast, the Christian government was no better.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Holyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Crap, now we are talking about Juluis Cesar and Vercingetorix, what next?
Do you guys think the invasion of Europe by Homo Sapiens Sapiens was a positive although imperialistic move or a "blood thirsty" conquest that wiped out Neandertalus culture ??

 

[HannibalBarka]

That's another of your bright arguments, like that about Jews being criminals?

or yours about Gypsies

 

[sysyphus]

How , then , do you justify this and this ? Or , maybe more importantly ( due to your penchant for dismissing all history as perversion ) , this and this ?

Religion of peace my foot .

As he said in his post, violence committed by anyone in the name of religion has gone beyond the tenets of their religion. Those incidents you cite are just that, just as the violent acts committed in the names of other religions are.

 

[silver 2039]

The only country to have successfully resisted so far is India . And even we're having a tough time recovering from about a thousand years of imperialist oppression .

Yeah...right...those damn Muslims they built us that bloody Taj Mahal, and the Qutab Minar, and the Red Fort, and Fatephur Sikri and brought us Persian literature, and architecture...arr curse them!!!

If you want to blame someone for imperialist oppression that has left India in the state it currently is today blame the British.

 

[HannibalBarka]

That's the silliest argument I've heard in a long time , and believe me , I've heard many.

As I am going to hear in the rest of your post

The Romans , when they conquered Gaul , did not exterminate Gallic culture . It was lying there , under the surface , so that when the Romans left , it re-asserted itself .

Roman never left Gaul , Gaul become roman instead; and the Gallic culture have been romanized.

In Islam , however , a part of the faith is that it destroys the past.
When a country is a victim of Muslim imperialism , it cannot recover unless the majority of people retain their religion . The Persians are dead , and so is their culture . Pre-Islamic Arabia was obliterated by Islam . Pre-Islamic Egypt , of Pharonic fame , is also gone . So is Hindu-Buddhist Afghanistsn .

Last time I checked the news, about 60 to 70 million people still like to be called Persian. Pre-Islamic Arabia was not "obliterated", no more than it oblitared Pre-Pre-Islamic Arabia. Arabia like any culture is a continuim, it evolves. Pre-Roman Mediterranean did not disappear when the Roman conquered the whole Mediterranean Bassin, it just evolved. Today's Egypt is the product of thousands of years of culture mixing: it is a mix of Pharaonic Egypt, Roman Egypt, Arab Egypt, Turkish Egypt, Napoleonic Egypt. Today's Iran is a mixture of Achmenide, Hellenistic, Sassanids and Chia-Islamic culture. That is why Egyptian and Persian Cultures are still different today.

The only country to have successfully resisted so far is India . And even we're having a tough time recovering from about a thousand years of imperialist oppression .

I konw that you hold India as the Mother Of All Good, the Last Chance For Human Race, etc etc etc OK, if that make your boat float
Fact is It is not, the only real thing that bothers you isn't Imperialism, but it's the fact that it was Muslims that invaded India and not the other way, that it was the UK that colonized India and not the other way.

 

[silver 2039]

Pre-Roman Mediterranean did not disappear when the Roman conquered the whole Mediterranean Bassin, it just evolved

It dissappeared in Carthage, Iberia, Dacia, Gaul, to name a few, local cultures were wiped out, Romanized, and nothing is left of their former religon, traditions, archietecture.

 

[Samson]

As he said in his post, violence committed by anyone in the name of religion has gone beyond the tenets of their religion. Those incidents you cite are just that, just as the violent acts committed in the names of other religions are.

Just to point out, the second 2 links are discusing events descrided in the Koran and the Hadis, which AIUI are the tenets of Islam. However it is quite clear that these are very biased and I would like to hear an Islamic comentary on these isuses before making up my mind. Some quotes;

Perhaps the most significant verse in this connection is Koran 8/39 which, in meaning, is almost identical with Koran 2/193. These declare: “Fight them until persecution is no more and religion is all for Allah.”

“Hast thou not seen those unto whom it was said: Withhold your hands and establish worship and pay the poor-due? But when fighting was prescribed for them, behold! a party of them fear mankind even as they fear Allah or with greater fear, and say: Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us? If only Thou wouldst give us respite for a while. I Say: The comfort of this world is scant; the Hereafter will be better for him that
wardeth off evil” (K 4/77).

The 5th verse of Sûrah Taubah makes no bones about the matter. Allah says in so many words:
“When the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them, besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.”

 

[silver 2039]

I don't really hold much credance to these internet quotes. One would have to read an actual Quaran and ask a Muslim scholar, theres plenty of evil warmongering quotes from the Old Testament but most Chrstians ignore the Old Testament and only follow the new, and most don't take it literally either. I won't pass judgement till I can ask a Islamic scholar and see for myself where it says this in the Quaran.

 

[Samson]

I don't really hold much credance to these internet quotes. One would have to read an actual Quaran and ask a Muslim scholar, theres plenty of evil warmongering quotes from the Old Testament but most Chrstians ignore the Old Testament and only follow the new, and most don't take it literally either. I won't pass judgement till I can ask a Islamic scholar and see for myself where it says this in the Quaran.

I do agree that for a good understanding you need to get a scholars view and then make your decision. However the quotes do seem to agree with http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/ so I belive them, and they do not seem to be radically out of context.

The particully genocidal bits of the Old testament (the clearing of the promised land in Exodus is one that sticks in my mind) are not generally ignored, but explained away. There is not the emphasis on living your life like Mosses in Christianity that there is to be like Mohammed in Islam.

 

[nc-1701]

Okay

1. The Buddhist remark was really just trying to make apoint i did'nt mean to offend any Buddhists out thee.

2. I am by no means saying Islam is peacefull or good.
In fact I hate this religon which preaches violence and forced conversion.

3. I also hate the christians who preach the same damn thing then claim to be the moraly right one because Islam is just as bad as they are.

4. Some modern examples of religous wars/atrocities by major religons.

Islam first
*The anti-West Jihad
*The Sudan atrocities
*The Iran-Iraq war.
*The attacks on Isreal
*The Indo-Paki wars

Now chistianity
*The KKK
*Nazi Germanys attempt to wipe out non-chistian/Eroupean groups
*The IRA
*The 30 years war fougfht solely over religon between protestants and catholics.
*The colonial wars in which christian Eroupe forceibly converted native peoples
*The exterination of American indians in part because they were non-christian.
*The Crusades
*The first world war was heavily religisized by the churches of America.
*Various modern abortion clinic bombings etc.

Jews
*Isreali atrocities in Lebanon against Muslims
*Numerous violent wars with ancient peoples however these are long enough ago I'm willing to ignore them.

There you have some examples to try an refute.

My real point is that christians especialy but religons in general have no right to claim the moral high ground. With possible exceptions of Buddhism and Taoism etc.

If any of you have watched the recent seasons of the sci-fi show "Stargate SG-1" You will see that the Ori are basicaly christians being able to watch them from an outside point of view may help you realize exactly what christianity and other monothastic religons are about.

 

[Leha]

I don't really hold much credance to these internet quotes. One would have to read an actual Quaran and ask a Muslim scholar, theres plenty of evil warmongering quotes from the Old Testament but most Chrstians ignore the Old Testament and only follow the new, and most don't take it literally either. I won't pass judgement till I can ask a Islamic scholar and see for myself where it says this in the Quaran.

Just be careful not to end up like this guy:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3303485,00.html

Or....

That guy, formerly known as Cat Stevens

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5922705/israel_rejects_the_former_cat_stevens

 

[silver 2039]

Just be careful not to end up like this guy:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3303485,00.html

Or....

That guy, formerly known as Cat Stevens

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5922705/israel_rejects_the_former_cat_stevens

Why do you object to Cat Stevens? Forein governments in the EU donate money to Hamas. Techincally it is the Palestinian government these days.

At any rate I despise religon in general so the chances of me coverting to Islam are unlikely much less becoming an Islamic terroist. I don't have the right beard or mustach for that. It just doesn't grow into the long, luxrious amount of facial hair that Aythollah Khomeni has... lucky bastard

 

[Mott1]

As he said in his post, violence committed by anyone in the name of religion has gone beyond the tenets of their religion. Those incidents you cite are just that, just as the violent acts committed in the names of other religions are.

Jihad is a tenet of Islam! Violence comitted by a religious adherent has not gone beyond its tenets if within its tenets violence is promoted.

I don't really hold much credance to these internet quotes. One would have to read an actual Quaran and ask a Muslim scholar

Then I suggest you research the Quran and hadith before engaging in debate. Your argument as it stand is based on ignorance rather than knowledge. Verdict: argumentum ad ignorantiam

Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action.
Author: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 

[HannibalBarka]

Jihad is a tenet of Islam! Violence comitted by a religious adherent has not gone beyond its tenets if within its tenets violence is promoted.

He he, depends on how you read the Koran. Jihad is a tenets in the Koran just like Waging War is in the American Constitution. Muslim scholars think that Jihad is a struggle against oneself, other think it is fighting the enemy when attacked, and the last is attaking the enemy when needed. The US Constitution does say the same thing. That doesn't make it "bad", quite the contrary I think.

Then I suggest you research the Quran and hadith before engaging in debate. Your argument as it stand is based on ignorance rather than knowledge. Verdict: argumentum ad ignorantiam
Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action.
Author: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

So I suggest to you too

 

[silver 2039]

Jihad is a tenet of Islam! Violence comitted by a religious adherent has not gone beyond its tenets if within its tenets violence is promoted.

Not all people intrepert things the same nor take them literally as I already pointed out.

 

[nonconformist]

Exhibit 1:


Exhibit 2:


Exhibit 3:


Exhibit 4:

Exhibit 5:
"[of the Jews] One Third must die, one third must emmigrate, one third must assimilate"-Alexander III's policy on Jewish populations in Russia.

 

[aneeshm]

Also, this post is BS. Persian culture was hardly "wiped out". Go to Persia if you want to see. Talk to "Persians"

In fact, the word "Persia" is coined by Europeans.

BS . Persia is a corruption of "Persa" , one region of Persia . Iran is a corruption of the root word "Arya" or "Aryan" .

The "pre-islamic" egypt, or Pharonic egypt was gone long before the Arabs came. Christianity and centuries of foreign rule had wiped it out. Afganistan, well, I don't know enough about that, but I'll think twice before taking your word for anything.

Don't take my word . Just look up the history of the Hindu Kush - the mountain which got a name for killing so many Hindu slaves who were taken in loads to Arabian slave markets . Hindu epics - mainly the Mahabharata - are significantly related to Afghanistan . The name Kandahar is a corruption of the Hindu name "Gandhar" .