Reloading in GOTMs

[lroumen]

He said he has access to a high-end laptop that can run Civ4 fine! He'd just rather play on his other machine sometimes. This is not a situation where someone can't afford a computer.

I will personally send $50 by PayPal to anyone who needs it to play Civ4 by the GOTM rules.

Well, last year when I still lived with my parents I've tried to install Civ4 on my dads high end computer but it just wouldn't run because of the notorious problems that Civ4 has with videocards. It did run decently on my own and all heavy duty calculations I could just do at my dads computer, so why upgrade my own computer only for 1 game? I only played Civ3 GOTMs then btw, because there were no Civ4 GOTMs yet

After I moved into my own house early this year I heard I was going to get this laptop, but unforeseen events at work caused delivery to take a few months extra. I just coped the first few GOTMs (and skipped some) with the low performance for Civ4. Now I am actually planning to buy a new computer but I may well wait a year or so before I actually go to the store because by then Windows Vista has been tested properly and the system requirements would be better specified.
Still, when my laptop is doing calculations it would be nice to play on my old computer using frequent computer restarts, but I guess I'll just have to plan my timing better so I can use my lappy to play GOTMs.

 

[da_Vinci]

Well, last year when I still lived with my parents I've tried to install Civ4 on my dads high end computer but it just wouldn't run because of the notorious problems that Civ4 has with videocards. It did run decently on my own and all heavy duty calculations I could just do at my dads computer, so why upgrade my own computer only for 1 game? I only played Civ3 GOTMs then btw, because there were no Civ4 GOTMs yet

After I moved into my own house early this year I heard I was going to get this laptop, but unforeseen events at work caused delivery to take a few months extra. I just coped the first few GOTMs (and skipped some) with the low performance for Civ4. Now I am actually planning to buy a new computer but I may well wait a year or so before I actually go to the store because by then Windows Vista has been tested properly and the system requirements would be better specified.
Still, when my laptop is doing calculations it would be nice to play on my old computer using frequent computer restarts, but I guess I'll just have to plan my timing better so I can use my lappy to play GOTMs.

Iroumen's situation, among others, is what got me to thinking about the false positive issue in the first place.

I think it would be very useful to get some guidance from the mods, for people with lower computing power, or who's not so low system is behaving badly, if they would prefer that

1. Those players autosave every turn but only exit at end of a session. Fewer game restart events, but at the expense of possibly more crashes with replay of 1 turn.

2. Save, exit and reboot with some frequency (every 10 or 20 turns?), which would mean several in a game session, and lots overall. May prevent crashes, and thus the 1 turn replays.

3. Just not submit the GOTM.

(assuming that improving the machine or fixing the problem are not easily available options).

Of course, if giving an answer is spilling the beans, then I suppose we are on our own to decide.

dV

 

[AlanH]

1. Those players autosave every turn but only exit at end of a session. Fewer game restart events, but at the expense of possibly more crashes with replay of 1 turn.

2. Save, exit and reboot with some frequency (every 10 or 20 turns?), which would mean several in a game session, and lots overall. May prevent crashes, and thus the 1 turn replays.

Reality check!

All this talk of theoretical rates of false exclusions is nothing to do with players who have sub-spec systems and have to reload autosaves.

If we have seen submissions that show signs of intermittent autosave reloads, or more-than-typical short sessions between reloads, then the most those players will have received is a "warning" that their save is not squeaky clean. We would obviously prefer it if everyone played on a fully spec'd PC, and played a reasonable number of turns between save/reload breaks. We know life isn't always as we would like, so we send e-mails asking players to ensure that they are autosaving every turn, and taking care to play from their last save, not an earlier one. Nothing exploded, and no one was arrested.

3. Just not submit the GOTM.

(assuming that improving the machine or fixing the problem are not easily available options).

Are people really playing Civ4 GOTMs on systems that crash frequently, and that can't even make a regular save or autosave without crashing? It seems to me that this would be the only case that would lead to option 3. If that's really the case, then face it - your system is NOT capable of running Civ4,and maybe Civ3 GOTMs would then be a better answer for you.

 

[Lexad]

I wonder whether playing it SGOTM-style (10-20 turns per session in the evening) is allowed then?

 

[bio_hazard]

I wonder whether playing it SGOTM-style (10-20 turns per session in the evening) is allowed then?

I'm sure they don't have a problem with this. I sometimes play on the train during my commute, which means sessions approximately 45minutes in length, and almost certainly less than 20 turns.

Alan and Ainwood are being a bit coy on how they detect reloads with the HOF mod, but they've made it clear that the length of play periods and number of turns per sessions are not by themselves the evidence they use to detect cheating.

To join in the earlier statistics lesson, its kind of a bayesian thing, where cheating by reloading is more often associated with funky session lengths, etc(adjusting the prior probability distribution), but isn't in itself diagnostic of cheating.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I wonder whether playing it SGOTM-style (10-20 turns per session in the evening) is allowed then?

Huh? How else would you play? Frequently, my GOTM turns can take 30-60 minutes each. I could hardly play more than 10-20 in a session.

 

[AlanH]

I wonder whether playing it SGOTM-style (10-20 turns per session in the evening) is allowed then?

Who ever told you it isn't?

 

[warren peace]

I want to chime in here. I recieved one of the "warning" e-mails. My first reaction was I was insulted. I received the red ambulance for GOTM9, and other than GOTM4 (Russia on warlord level) all my scores are less than 3% of the top score! If I am cheating, I must be really bad at it .

I am not really sure what flagged the letter, short sessions or an autoload (I do think I used an autosave once when I forgot to save the turn after victory). I e-mailed Ainwood to find out but so far have recieved no reply.

I realize that this is in someway a competition and that cheating should be discouraged, but I think the criterion for what qualifies at cheating should be open for all to see. The idea that if they tell you what they are looking at will allow the real cheaters to hack their way around it might be true, but to not give the criteria makes it feel like you are being tried at Guantanamo!

Warren

PS Here is the text of the warning message in case you haven't seen it.

We have been working to clear the backlog of outstanding Civ4 GOTM and
WOTM results. During this process, we have uncovered a significant number
of entries that are outside the rules, and outside the spirit of our
competition – entries where it is apparent that the player has replayed
portions of their game, most probably to obtain a better result. I hope
you appreciate that we are just trying to make this competition as fair
and equitable as possible for all players.

We are sending you this e-mail, because you have had one or more GOTM/WOTM
entries that appear to be very ‘borderline’. We will allow this
entry(ies) to be included the published results, but we implore you to
take more care in how you play these games in future. In particular, we
strongly suggest that:

• You do not begin a play session unless you can dedicate a reasonable
period of time to it.
• If you are having technical difficulties with the game crashing etc, you
seek assistance in the technical support forum.
• Save before you exit a game, and change the autosave frequency in the
.config file from the default of every 4 turns, to every turn. (Under \My
Documents\My Games\Warlords\CivilizationIV.ini, find the following line:

; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 4

Change this to:
; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 1



regards,



ainwood
GOTM staff

 

[KingdomBrunel]

Ainwood, AlanH,

You have my support. Keep the rules simple. If that means a small percentage of people can't always submit because their machines are too poor, then so be it. I've had a couple of games which I couldn't finish because my PC is too aged for 6 civs worth of late game warfare. At the end of the day, it's only a game, and I got over it.

 

[civ_steve]

@warren peace: (a great civ name, btw!) to you and others who received 'warning' emails, I ask that you not be insulted. Please understand that when ainwood said a 'significant number of entries were outside of the rules ...' that also means a significant # of emails had to be sent out. It sounds like you zeroed in on what caused the flag, you had already notified ainwood of the issue when it occurred, and you've been told your game would be included. It has taken a considerable amount of time to tabulate the list of 'flagged' games and players and generate the email lists to send out the messages. It would have taken longer to edit the list to identify those playes who had previously resolved their issues and it was decided to get the emails out and move on. After all, this is just a warning; even I received one of these warning messages!

 

[warren peace]

Steve:

I guess I was insulted because the tone of the letter was a little too accusatory for me. (I am very sensitive . However, my real concern is that I would like to feel confident that the criteria used to detect cheating is objective and fair. As of now I feel like I don't really know what I did wrong.

Warren

 

[Thrallia]

as stated in the email, you probably did nothing wrong or your game would have been excluded.

I got a warning message as well, and I'm certain it was because of my crashing problems in WOTM1 and my actions just before death befell the koreans in WOTM2. The warning was a mass email that was basically meant just to inform you that something you've done in past games was out of the norm, but was not something that would get your game kicked out.

I don't think the methodology should be posted because that will allow people to know better what exactly to do to avoid getting caught. The criteria is objective and fair, even if you do not know the methods used to detect such criteria: the criteria is that you don't reload your GOTM from a previous save and attempt to replay it either for higher score or because you are anal about misclicks. You also only submit the first game you play through.

Just because you do not know HOW they detect people who break these criteria does not mean they aren't openly known, objective, and fair. And since no one has yet posted that they were excluded unfairly(I'm not talking about the warnings now because I'm sure the staff will pm the people who've asked what they did that got flagged soon enough), I believe they are doing a great job!

 

[ainwood]

I e-mailed Ainwood to find out but so far have recieved no reply.

I am working through the e-mails, but there is a significant number of them, but I am fitting them in between other things.

Please have some patience - any e-mails sent to me will be responded to.

 

[Ribannah]

PS Here is the text of the warning message in case you haven't seen it.

We have been working to clear the backlog of outstanding Civ4 GOTM and
WOTM results. During this process, we have uncovered a significant number
of entries that are outside the rules, and outside the spirit of our competition – entries where it is apparent that the player has replayed
portions of their game, most probably to obtain a better result. I hope
you appreciate that we are just trying to make this competition as fair
and equitable as possible for all players.

We are sending you this e-mail, because you have had one or more GOTM/WOTM entries that appear to be very ‘borderline’. We will allow this
entry(ies) to be included the published results, but we implore you to take more care in how you play these games in future. In particular, we strongly suggest that:

• You do not begin a play session unless you can dedicate a reasonable
period of time to it.
• If you are having technical difficulties with the game crashing etc, you
seek assistance in the technical support forum.
• Save before you exit a game, and change the autosave frequency in the
.config file from the default of every 4 turns, to every turn. (Under \My
Documents\My Games\Warlords\CivilizationIV.ini, find the following line:
...

Thanks.

It is the first suggestion that has me worried. What happens if you do not follow this suggestion? Not everyone can know beforehand whether they have 'a reasonable period of time' to play. If your child comes home from school with a problem, to name just one possibility, it is end of session.
Some people cannot play for ' a reasonable period of time', period, even though they may be able to easily finish the game in time to submit. This is the game of the month, right? Not the game of the day?

 

[civ_steve]

...(I do think I used an autosave once when I forgot to save the turn after victory)...

From an objective point of view, isn't this a replay? Games are being excluded due to replays. Very important to PM a moderator when you have need to load an autosave, such as in your case or a CTD or a power outage, ... These things happen, are quite understandable, but they still get flagged and will generate a warning. For your case as you described it, it is pretty straightforward to include the game; with other circumstances, a game might get excluded.

Some steps to be sure a player's game is valid and included:
1.) Create a Savefile at the end of your current game session just before you exit (you can create intermediate Savefiles, and can load them later for informational purposes, but never play any turns in them)
2.) At the beginning of your next game session, load the last good Savefile created at the end of your last session and play on
3.) Only load an autosave when you have a very good reason to use one
4.) Use the most recent usable autosave
5.) Set your autosave interval to every turn (instructions are posted earlier in this thread)
6.) PM a moderator about the use of the autosave

Follow these steps and your game will likely be accepted, but don't abuse Autosaves; they are replays and loading too many autosaves will result in exclusion.

 

[AlanH]

Thanks.

It is the first suggestion that has me worried. What happens if you do not follow this suggestion? Not everyone can know beforehand whether they have 'a reasonable period of time' to play. If your child comes home from school with a problem, to name just one possibility, it is end of session.
Some people cannot play for ' a reasonable period of time', period, even though they may be able to easily finish the game in time to submit. This is the game of the month, right? Not the game of the day?

Please read what we are saying. Short sessions in themselves do not result in EXCLUSIONS. Thay may result in WARNINGS. A warning is a set of recommendations. Has anyone been excluded during this exercise because they played short sessions? To misquote the Bard: "Methinks there are some people here who do protest to much."

 

[Erkon]

... Very important to PM a moderator when you have need to load an autosave, such as in your case or a CTD or a power outage, ... These things happen, are quite understandable, but they still get flagged and will generate a warning.
...
6.) PM a moderator about the use of the autosave

I've seen the term PM during this discussion and I am not sure what it is. I guess it stands for Private Message, but is there any guide on how exactly I do that? Could anyone from the GOTM staff propose a standard message that we can use or at least suggest a header, just to make it easier for yourself to handle our explanations?

I also received a warning and I have absolutely no problem with that (I once forgot to save after victory so I had to replay the last turn; got lower score compared to the virgin game )

Now, if this happens again, should I then send a PM and state that I forgot to save after victory? And to whom?

I fully support your effort to ensure fair competition. I'm learning a lot from reading all the posts and by playing GOTM. Thanks for you effort.

 

[AlanH]

A PM is a Private Message. You can write one to any of the GOTM Staff simply by clicking our name on the left hand side of any of our posts. For example, if you click on my name next to this post you will see a menu. One of the menu items is "Send a Private Message to AlanH". Click that to open a message window. Fill in the name of the game (WOTM 4, GOTM 20 ... ) as the title, and write a simple note about what happened. Click Send. You're done.

If you get a warning or exclusion e-mail and want to comment, protest or complain, then just reply to the email with your concerns.

 

[bio_hazard]

Is there any way to tweak the HOF mod so that it requires you save after a victory and/or 're-saves' your most recent autosave in the event of a defeat? This would seem to solve a lot of problems.

 

[AlanH]

I think this has already been raised. The HoF Mod for Windows already has that option - save on exit. So if you reach the end of the game and quit, and if you have that option enabled, then you get a save automatically.

[EDIT] I do find it pretty strange that players can spend a lot of time getting to the end of a hard-fought GOTM, and then forget to save, though