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[NovaKart]

Italian pizza is really different from American. I first had Italian pizza in Tbilisi, Georgia of all places and was surprised how the bread was so flat.

Later I went to Italy and found out it was the same as there but American pizza seems more common internationally.

Italian food used to not be common throughout America. My great grandmother used to pronounce pizza with a z instead of the ts because she just couldn't get the pronunciation and she didn't grow up with it even though she really liked it.

 

[Flying Pig]

Tomatoes were only introduced to Italy in the 1550s and didn't become a staple of their cuisine for a while. Technically it's not really a traditionally Italian food, it was brought over from a foreign place, and they slowly integrated it into their cuisine over time. The first Italian recipe involving tomatoes is from 1692 and it was a recipe that was copied from Spain. Tomatoes didn't become a national staple until the late 1700s.

Who knows, maybe in 200 years kebabs are going to be considered an Italian staple?

I had a moment of this when the mayor of Amatrice recently complained about a chef in Milan, who had won various awards and let on that his secret ingredient in Pasta Amatriciana (essentially, tomatoes, cheese, bacon and pepper) was garlic. The mayor came out with this:

If you use ingredients like garlic or onion in an amatriciana, it means you are ignoring a pastoral tradition that is almost 1,000 years old, passed down from generation to generation.

One can only imagine what his predecessor circa 1500 (about halfway into that thousand-year tradition, if we're counting) thought when some upstart chef started using these funny American fruit in it!

 

[warpus]

It's funny how people tend to assume that the things they are used to as norms have been like that forever. Things change, people adapt. You can't stop progress, eventually garlic will be in every single dish

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There's a Guinness commercial that claims there are more "Irish-Americans" than there are people in Ireland. It's possible that there are more "Italian-Americans" than there are Italians. Maybe the pizza from America is more Italian than the one from Italy.

 

[warpus]

Who invented pizza anyway? Americans tell me that it was invented in New York by Italian immigrants, but Italians seem to claim that it was invented right in Italy.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Who invented pizza anyway? Americans tell me that it was invented in New York by Italian immigrants, but Italians seem to claim that it was invented right in Italy.

I think to answer that requires defining what you mean by "pizza." If you mean "any sort of flat bread with stuff on top" you'll get a different answer than if you say "a flat thing just like you get from a New York Italian deli."

One interesting line from a Wiki article:

"Foods similar to pizza have been made since the neolithic age."

 

[warpus]

Let's say that "pizza" is flattened dough with tomato sauce and cheese on it, plus maybe other stuff. From what I've read stuff like that was made in Italy first. That sounds close enough to a pizza to me, but I suppose the disagreement probably revolves around the definition of what pizza is and what it isn't.

I recently watched a documentary that showcases the first baseball game ever played in Canada, whereas Americans are taught in school that it happened in the U.S. So now I'm sort of suspicious of any sort of "We made it first!" claims

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Let's say that "pizza" is flattened dough with tomato sauce and cheese on it, plus maybe other stuff. From what I've read stuff like that was made in Italy first. That sounds close enough to a pizza to me, but I suppose the disagreement probably revolves around the definition of what pizza is and what it isn't.

There is a mention of pizza in some tenth century text, eight hundred years before the Italians claim on 'inventing' it. (Does first use of the term equal 'invention'???) I suspect that the 'flattened dough with tomato sauce and cheese on it' definition is going to put the actual 'invention' way back in the 'lost in antiquity' category...which I am fine with. It should be noted though that my local pizzeria has a very popular 'no sauce' version that certainly seems like a pizza, but doesn't meet that definition.

 

[Farm Boy]

Californians are not to be trusted with food words from month to month much less century to century.

Yes, I feel filthy for linking that, don't worry!

 

[warpus]

There is a mention of pizza in some tenth century text, eight hundred years before the Italians claim on 'inventing' it. (Does first use of the term equal 'invention'???) I suspect that the 'flattened dough with tomato sauce and cheese on it' definition is going to put the actual 'invention' way back in the 'lost in antiquity' category...which I am fine with.

But tomatoes didn't exist in Europe as a common thing until the 1600s/1700s. So it seems you couldn't have an actual pizza with tomato sauce until after that

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I took a girlfriend to Chicago one time, and my brother in law set out on a mission to introduce her to Chicago style pizza. He took us to two world renowned pizza places on Rush Street where the wait time was well over two hours, then settled for a nearby California Pizza Kitchen.

 

[Farm Boy]

MMmmmmmm.

I've waited for a seat when the Cardinals were in town and decreed it worth the experience. I've no doubt your "Pizza" Kitchen was likewise delicious tho!

 

[warpus]

I took a girlfriend to Chicago one time, and my brother in law set out on a mission to introduce her to Chicago style pizza. He took us to two world renowned pizza places on Rush Street where the wait time was well over two hours, then settled for a nearby California Pizza Kitchen.

Last time I was in Chicago me and a friend waited for 1 hour and.. 15 minutes? or longer, for a deep dish pizza, at a pizza joint that got great reviews for producing traditional Chicago style deep dish pizza. Some place the locals rave about. I think Whomp might have had a hand in recomending it.

We were so hungry and drank a bunch of beers waiting for the pizza to arrive, but it was totally worth it. Still don't have a girlfriend though.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

MMmmmmmm.

I've waited for a seat when the Cardinals were in town and decreed it worth the experience. I've no doubt your "Pizza" Kitchen was likewise delicious tho!

If you like wood fired pizza ovens they're okay...but they are basically just another pizza chain. I was willing to wait, but I think my brother in law was motivated by his car being in a fifteen dollar an hour parking space. I was motivated by having something to tease him about for the rest of our lives.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's the only one I've eaten at on Rush Street. I agree, fwiw. The local treasures are for the locals, which it's not like I really qualify as. Just close enough to be spoiled by them. Semi-local. Still look up at the skyscrapers and whatnot.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Pizza is just the Italia word for "pie." It could refer to many pies we Americans would not call pizza.

If I recall correctly, flattened bread with tomato sauce and basil was invented in Italy, but the layer of melted cheese was an American addition which some Italians later copied. I think some Italians sprinkled a little grated cheese on top between cooking and eating it before that, but it was not considered part of the standard dish.

 

[warpus]

Interesting.

I suppose the only way to settle this question is for the pizza wars to begin